Is Mormonism a Polytheistic religion?

[PaulDupre]

It’s just curious to me, when I think about it, that I have never met a practicing, devout Catholic. I’m sure they’re around!

All the best to you - John

John,
I meet hundreds of faithful practicing Catholics every Sunday when I attend mass. I meet them at our parish bible study every Tuesday night. I also know a number of devout Catholics where I work. Your claim never to have met a devout Catholic strains credulity, to say the least.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[KathleenGee]

BrotherJohn,

Please go to Mass. You can go during the week but be sure to check daily Mass times. I like daily Mass because it is quiet; some parishes, Father gives a homily and then we respond, and you really get more community. But daily Mass, there is instant community…we don’t even talk to each other much because we already know where each other is.

The Eucharist truly is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity…and the virtuous life is a hidden one.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Lefty…

I am certain it was Orson Pratt’s edition. There are people here in the past who also singled out his writings…and they were identical to that which I read…The Great Roman Church, the wh***, the Protestant churches, her *******…I can’t complete the rest…I do not want to even look up those links. They were brought on by Catholics here so many months ago. I went over to Joseph Smith’s works and came across the same ideas, but not quite so crass the language…he did refer to our faith as corrupt and an abomination.

The ‘Pearl of Great Price’ was an old edition. Orson Pratt edited it in 1852…but I can look it up. I called the LDS in SLC about it. They didn’t know. When I went back to the store, it was pulled…anyway, this kind of language is not of the Lord.

I think American Christianity is not very good because there are so many divisions and the Lord called us to be one.

You don’t need to use that language to verify self.

When I shared on St. Sixtus, it was going back to the times of the mid 200’s. And it revealed no sense of corruption or abomination of faith. It also referred to the liturgy.

Early Church Fathers or writers or apologists were not clear on some doctrinal points…but they were finally resolved at the Council of Nicea. Everyone has a gift…and we recognize the gifts of the Holy Spirit when a teaching expresses God’s presence of retaining the faith that we always have had passed down from the Jewish faith to ours, the presence and spirit of communion…which we also share with the seat of Peter in Rome…and likewise, we can recognize when a great saint is also writing something of God…but it is of their opinion.

The Catholic Church is like Judaism in that God comes to us as a gathering of people, not just one person. Church is a gathering of people.

It is much easier to say ‘Holy Trinity’— than Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The term is theological of the Church. When the Church teaches Sacred Scriptures, it is doing its work, fulfilling one of its duties.

Anyway, Rebecca gave enough with the links. If Mormons were truly to study our history, documents, liturgy…I do not think they would refer to us as corrupt, an abomination…this is not the work of the One True God.

As Catholics we are to look at the Church as a mother, a guide, a nurturer in Christ, but never to take the place of God Himself, or decide who goes to heaven and to hell. Only God can judge.

Alot of onus can be taken off of Mormonism if it will stop labelling Christianity as such.

 

[BrotherJohn7]

We know what your religion teaches. And the anti-priest rituals…I read them…I went to these different sites learning about Mormonism and all the beliefs, practices…I know they vary…but…

As a priesthood holder I’m not sure what you mean by anti-priest rituals Kathleen.

It all came across as a foundation in bigotry and willful ignorance and an attachment to things not real, male superiority over women…and some here bring up teachings and practices I already knew about.

Kathleen - you’ve lost me on this one and I’m wondering if we’re talking about the same church now!

I have two beautiful daughters (to go along with two sons) and a strong wife. I don’t feel superior to her and that is certainly not a model that I would take any of my children into. Are you sure you’re not talking about one of the off-shoots that call themselves “Mormon”?

It is true that women can’t/don’t hold the priesthood, which is fundamentally about being of service to others in our community who are in need. My wife and I agree that our children need her nurture and therefore she takes care of them as her primary care-giving. I take care of them too, but help outside the home when needed.

I am sorry to offend you in any way. But it is a most weak premise to define my faith and my church, and my people and their history…they have suffered alot more than Mormons…as corrupt, an abomination.

I understand your point there. I’m here out of the same sensitivity. It not something that any follower of Christ should say publicly, or in private. The only thing I can say - speaking for myself and the example in my home - is we don’t speak about the beliefs of others. As I said in an earlier post I prefer to think we share many similarities and it’s my belief that we’re both trying to do our best.

I don’t want my beliefs attacked, nor misconstrued and I extend you the same courtesy. I believe all of this energy would be better used addressing the multitude moving away from religion than those who have religion fighting with each other over who’s got it right.

I’m happy to have the gospel in my life - when previously I did not and I was turned off to Christianity for all the hypocrisy I witnessed. Believe me I attended many churches, Christian and otherwise.

The Catholic Church is not based on bigotry or relegating other people to inferior status and then making itself superior.

I’m not sure that’s entirely true, however I’m not going to go there.

But no one in the Catholic Church, or anywhere else for that matter, has a monopoly on holiness. Nobody. Our goodness is found in God alone–Who Is, Who was not prior some man.

I agree with this, absolutely.

If all you can say is that you have never met a Catholic who is a Christian…sorry, but because you seem to be aware that they are Catholic in the first place…you could be applying outward Mormon culture to Catholics.

Quite honestly Kathleen it wasn’t until entering this thread that I realized I didn’t know, and had never met, a practicing Catholic. Of course I’ve known a lot of people who identify as Catholic - many of them really good people - just none that are active in their faith. If I have any feeling about that - it’s that it’s a sad thing.

And then I am appalled at the lack of reciprocity of Mormons thinking they do nothing wrong to pose as a geneology society to get as they did recently, this ‘treasure trove’ of deceased priests, nuns, and other Catholics so they could baptize these dead in the Mormon temples. This is devious. We already know this baptism doesn’t work. But it is the principle.

How do you know? It’s a loving act. If it’s wrong, what harm is done? And if it’s right?

Dear Kathleen, we don’t need to fully understand each other but what matters is that we try. I spoke with my wife last night and she gave me the new perspective on the “great abomination” thing. I’d be offended too - just as I spoke up here because I’m offended by the insinuation we worship multiple gods.

As I said above, I think Christianity and both of our religions are losing the people we should be seeking to reach and help. We, the 10-15% (if that) in this country who are active in our faith should not be wasting our time denigrating each other - we should be at work bringing the gospel forth to the 85-90% who need it.

One more thing Kathleen - because this bothers me.

1. Here is a link to Wikipedia which has an entire page dedicated to this “abominable church” thing. Please read it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_and_abominable_church

 

[BrotherJohn7]

continued . . .

Finally it is the Mormon practices first in misleading people about my faith, how it entraps people with speedy baptisms, then changes the creed, to creating new stories as true, the practices of Mormon bishops…that do not come up once or twice, but serious issues…that this reflects more a man made religion than one inspired by God.

The practices of Mormon bishops? Please tell!

But what I am having issue with is the continual cover-ups, the excuses for changing their beliefs, as well what was shared here.

Well, let’s end here because A) I don’t know what cover-ups you are referencing and B) that probably is not a topic you want to open.

There was no apostasy after the last apostle died. Do you think they would have some kind of inkling to insure the true faith of Christ would go on? Of course and whatever proof we give, the Mormons will not believe…but they will believe in Joseph Smith and ignore all the extenuating circumstances of his life.

Kathleen - the Bible is full of imperfect men. In fact, our Savior sought out the most imperfect.

In Joseph Smith’s defense if he was a charlatan was it necessary to write a book - a book that as educated as I am I wouldn’t possibly endeavor to write (and I’m a writer among other things), nor do I pretend I could.

I mean there were, and are today, plenty of people who simply take the Bible and start a church - and even claim to receive revelation from God.

Is it possible he did that? Yes, it’s possible. Is it likely? I’d say those are very, VERY long odds. That’d be a near impossible piece of work. It would be a superhuman achievement in my opinion - by an undereducated 20-something at that.

All the very best to you - John

 

[PaulDupre]

As a priesthood holder I’m not sure what you mean by anti-priest rituals Kathleen.

She means the pre-1990 temple endowment (the one I went through) film presentation which included a scene where Lucifer sends one of his employees, a Christian minister, to try to lead Adam away from Heavenly Father. Lucifer offers to pay the minister well if he will convert Adam to “the orthodox religion”. The minister is made to look like an ignorant, superstitious fool. When the minister fails to persuade Adam, the minister goes to Lucifer to ask for his payment, whereupon Lucifer berates him and sends him away.

It is one of the many anti-Christian parts of Mormonism that are now denied and hidden from new members like you.

Continued…

 

[PaulDupre]

Here is the transcript of that scene:

ADAM: I am looking for messengers.

LUCIFER: Oh, you want someone to preach to you. You want religion, do you? I will have preachers here presently.

(Lucifer turns his head as a PROTESTANT minister approaches.)

LUCIFER: Good Morning sir!

PROTESTANT MINISTER: Good morning!

(The preacher turns and looks into the camera.)

PROTESTANT MINISTER: A fine congregation!

LUCIFER: Yes, they are a very good people. They are concerned about religion. Are you a preacher?

PROTESTANT MINISTER: I am.

LUCIFER: Have you been to college and received training for the ministry?

PROTESTANT MINISTER: Certainly! A man cannot preach unless has been trained for the ministry.

LUCIFER: Do you preach the orthodox religion?

PROTESTANT MINISTER: Yes, that is what I preach.

LUCIFER: If you will preach your orthodox religion to these people, and convert them, I will pay you well.

PROTESTANT MINISTER: I will do my best.

(Lucifer guides the preacher to Adam and Eve, who stand nearby.)

LUCIFER: Here is a man who desires religion. He is very much exercised, and seems to be sincere.

(As Lucifer presents the preacher to Adam and Eve he steps back and observes the ensuing conversation. The preacher is made to sound sincere, although misguided and credulous. Adam appears humble, faithful and immovable in his determination to serve God. He is not swayed by the preacher, and is astounded by the doctrines espoused by the preacher.)

PROTESTANT MINISTER: I understand that you are inquiring after religion.

ADAM: I was calling upon Father.

PROTESTANT MINISTER: I am glad to know that you were calling upon Father. Do you believe in a God who is without body, parts, or passions; who sits on the top of a topless throne; whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere; who fills the universe, and yet is so small that he can dwell in your heart; who is surrounded by myriads of beings who have been saved by grace, not for any act of theirs, but by His good pleasure. Do you believe in such a great Being?

ADAM: I do not. I cannot comprehend such a being.

PROTESTANT MINISTER: That is the beauty of it. Perhaps you do not believe in a devil, and in that great hell, the bottomless pit, where there is a lake of fire and brimstone into which the wicked are cast, and where they are continually burning, but none never consumed?

ADAM: I do not believe in any such place.

PROTESTANT MINISTER: My dear friend, I am sorry for you.

LUCIFER: I am sorry, very very sorry! What is it you want?

ADAM: I am looking for messengers from my Father.

(The scene changes to a view of the Celestial Kingdom, where Elohim reigns from a white throne affront tall white pillars. He is radiant as before, and his voice resonates as he speaks with Jehovah, who stands before him. He commands Jehovah to send down Peter, James and John)

PETER: Good morning.

LUCIFER: Good morning gentlemen.

PETER: What are you doing here?

LUCIFER: Teaching religion.

PETER: What religion do you teach?

LUCIFER: We teach a religion made of the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture.

PETER: How is your religion received by this community?

LUCIFER: Very well–excepting this man. He does not seem to believe anything we preach.

(Peter, James and John approach Adam and Eve.)

PETER: Good morning. What do you think of the preaching of these gentlemen?

ADAM: I cannot comprehend it.

PETER: Can you give us some idea concerning it?

ADAM: They preach of a God who is without body, parts, or passions; who is so large that he fills the universe, and yet is so small that he can dwell in your heart; and of a hell, without a bottom, where the wicked are continually burned but are never consumed. To me, it is a mass of confusion.

PETER: We do not wonder that you cannot comprehend such doctrine. Have you any tokens or signs?

(Lucifer steps up to the side of Peter and interjects his query.)

LUCIFER: Do you have any money?

PETER: We have sufficient for our needs.

LUCIFER: You can buy anything in this world for money.

PETER: Do you sell your tokens or signs for money? You have them, I presume.

ADAM: I have them, but I do not sell them for money. I hold them sacred. I am looking for the further light and knowledge Father promised to send me.

PETER: That is right. We commend you for your integrity. Good day. We shall probably visit you again.

(Peter, James and John exit; Lucifer stares into the camera.)

LUCIFER: Now is the great day of my power. I reign from the rivers to the ends of the earth. There is none who dares to molest, or make me afraid.

PROTESTANT MINISTER: Shall we ever have any apostles or prophets?

LUCIFER: No. However, there may be some who will profess revelation or apostleship. If so, just test them by asking that they perform a great miracle, such as cutting off an arm or some other member of the body, and restoring it, so that the people may know that they have come with power.

(The scene changes to the Celestial Kingdom. Peter, James, and John approach Jehovah with their report.)

PETER: Jehovah, we have visited the man Adam in the Telestial World as thou didst command us. We found Satan there, with his ministers, preaching all manner of false doctrine, and striving to lead the posterity of Adam astray. But Adam has been true and faithful to the token and sign given him in the Garden of Eden, and is waiting for the further light and knowledge you promised to send him. This is our report.

Continued…

 

[PaulDupre]

Pre-1990 endowment continued…

(The scene changes again to the lone and dreary world. The three Apostles boldly approach Lucifer.)

PETER: I am Peter.

JAMES: I am James.

JOHN: I am John.

LUCIFER: Yes, I thought I knew you. (He turns to his Preacher.) Do you know who these men are? They claim to be apostles. Try them!

(The Preacher approaches Peter.)

PROTESTANT MINISTER: Do you profess to be an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ?

PETER: We do.

PROTESTANT MINISTER: This man told me that we should never have any revelation or apostles, but if any should come professing to be apostles, I was to ask them to cut off an arm or some other member of the body and the restore it, so that the people might know that they came with power.

PETER: We do not satisfy men’s curiosity in that manner. It is a wicked and an adulterous generation that seeks for a sign. Do you know who that man is? He is Satan!

PROTESTANT MINISTER: What? The Devil?

PETER: That is one of his names.

PROTESTANT MINISTER: He is quite a different person from what he told me the devil is. He said the devil has claws like a bear’s on his hands, horns on his head, and a cloven foot, and that when he speaks he has the roar of a lion!

PETER: He has said this to deceive you, and I would advise you to get out of his employ.

PROTESTANT MINISTER: Your advise is good; but, if I leave his employ, what will become of me?

PETER: We will preach the gospel unto you, with the rest of Adam’s posterity.

PROTESTANT MINISTER: That is good. (He turns to Lucifer) I would like to have a settlement. I want you to pay me for preaching.

LUCIFER: I am ready to keep my word and fulfill my part of the agreement. I promised to pay you if you would convert these people, and they have nearly converted you! You can get out of my kingdom, I want no such men in it! (As the preacher turns sadly and leaves Lucifer approaches Peter) Now, what are you going to do?

PETER: We will dismiss you without further argument.

• excerpt from the Pre-1990 LDS Temple Endowment

You should read the transcript of the entire endowment. It would be quite an education for you who seem to know nothing about Mormonism except for the sanitized whitewash they have foisted upon you.

Paul

 

[Pacos_Pete]

All these doctrines and practices came directly from between Joseph’s legs.

Well Paul, are you showing your true colors? If I was to make any statement about a Catholic in the negative way you portray Mormonism, this thread would be smoking.
Why is it necessary to make the statement you made? Isn’t it enough to get expelled from CAF? Even if I was to lodge a complaint, I don’t believe it would go anywhere.
On another thread it was ask why we that have a different religious preference sign-up on CAF, well it is to understand what our Catholic friends think and believe as they do.
On another thread everyone was civil, considerate, tolerant of others. A real joy to be involved in. Now when I get something from CAF as cheap as this, it makes me wonder what my Catholic associates really think of my religious preference.
It sickens me to even think of this thread, what a cheap shot. I am trying to understand if you are one that takes the Sacrament (Body of Christ) on a regular basis or one that is only Catholic Christmas Eve and Easter? Now I’m getting cheap in my remarks.

Years a go I was watching a TV program where religion was being discussed. The Head Catholic for Utah was ask how he felt. His comment was; all he had to do was tend his flock and the Mormons got blamed for everything that happens in the state.
Why is it that the people in charge get along and the lower-er people are in the pile, the more hateful they get as if what they say makes a difference?.
.

 

[PaulDupre]

Earlier in the endowment film, after Adam and Eve had eaten the forbidden fruit, the Lord said he would place enmity between them and Satan, to which Satan responds:

Then with that enmity I will take the treasures of the earth, and with gold and silver I will buy up armies and navies, Popes and priests, and reign with blood and horror on this earth!

• excerpt from the pre-1990 LDS temple endowment

Another witness of Mormonism’s historic hatred of Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[mwok]

Kathleen -

I’m certainly open to learning more about any other
faith. The truth is the truth.

I can assure you that Mormons spend very little, if
any, of their time talking about what’s wrong with
other churches or their beliefs.

It does seem, however, that other churches spend
considerable time and effort seeking to make us
wrong.

I can also assure you that you, and those on this
forum, know (or think they know) significantly more
about Mormonism than I will pretend to know about
Catholicism.

As I have stated previous, at the age of 43 I cannot
say that I have ever met a practicing Catholic in
spite of the fact that I have lived all over this country.

Not a single one in my entire life. Maybe I have known
people who were just very private about it -

I know people practicing just about every other faith
and lifestyle imaginable!

I know a number of Mormons who have converted
from Catholicism - and I’ve never asked them why.
I’ve never sought “the dirt” and I cannot imagine
any good Mormon who’d waste a moment of their
time in that way.

I know a Mexican woman who converted with her
husband and children but they were afraid to tell
her family -

I know another woman who converted from
Catholicism and her family disowned her.

These are people well versed in Catholicism, people
who are highly committed to their new faith - so
much so that they’ve left family relationships - not
because that’s what they want but because they
recognize something very true about this Church.

Now, as I said - I’m not here to make any who has
the Catholic faith wrong for the faith they possess.

Faith is about FAITH! It’s not about “knowing” and
any “knowing” that is going to come to you will not
occur through text alone. It comes through the
witness of the Holy Ghost.

And I have that experience.

You have faith in the Savior and that is what matters
primarily - I am in no way, nor have I been in anyway
at anytime, here to weaken your faith.

All I ask is that before you go about casting stones
that you take the time to get your facts straight, and
that even further you make the effort to recognize
that Mormon’s are good people, striving to live a
Christian life - and it is my belief they are having a
great deal of success in helping people achieve
that.

All the best to you - John

PS - I am not really done here!

The stories you’ve told here can be said of all religions.

 

[PaulDupre]

Well Paul, are you showing your true colors? If I was to make any statement about a Catholic in the negative way you portray Mormonism, this thread would be smoking.

BrotherJohn asked a question and I responded from an official Mormon source with which I am very familiar, having attended the temple pre-1990 many times. So I am an eye-witness.

I just quote from official Mormon sources. I welcome you to quote any official Catholic source and do your worst. We have 2000 years of council documents, papal encyclicals and writing of the Early Church Fathers - tens of thousands of pages that you are free to comb through looking for anything you would like to post. We also have the Cathechism, which gives you much of these writings in digest form.

Please quote from the popes, quote from the Catechism, quote from the councils. We have nothing to fear.

Can you say the same?

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

• • • a test - - -

 

[KathleenGee]

BrotherJohn,

I do pick up on your attitude…and it is a Godly attitude.

I am not backing off of what I have referred to…the Mormon church is hiding alot of its teachings, practices, as well as this anti-Catholic ritual against our priesthood, as well as the materials I came across at the LDS book store…

I see that as a form of dishonesty and misrepresentation to newcomers.

We have read testimonies of people being rushed into Mormon baptism, and then out of a ‘loving’ attitude, then told people more extreme beliefs that newcomers know are not true. I do not know if this is your experience in the ward. Again this is very dishonest, switch and bait, and a form of fraud.

I cannot understand how it is loving misrepresenting one’s self to gain access to our sacramental records to then be used to take people out of their own professions and baptize them against their will. We know the Mormon baptism won’t work.

As I said before, the human being is made in the image of God --given free will and intellect. To misrepresent, to access our —sacred — records to gain new members–in your mind is very, very wrong. And finally, the Vatican has put a stop to it in 2008, and now the Mormons cannot access our records.

Turn it on the other foot…how would you feel if you knew if an organization you consider corrupt, very wrong, an abomination, were getting into your religion’s records and making your people members of theirs without your knowledge or consent? You cannot go against free will.

Pope John Paul II is recorded as having been baptized 6 times in the Mormon religion so far…that is ridiculous, and it is offensive to any devout Catholic. Do you honestly think he would switch to become a Mormon in death?

To do these things, to profess the kinds of beliefs Mormonism has held…reveals Mormonism has taken from true Christianity and made it into something else.

There is a movement within Mormonism to standardize itself with Christianity. I am all for that…I do believe there are those in the Mormon religion who have come to Christ the same as any other Christian – including us…but it is a matter of getting through all the different or contrary ideas of Mormonism, the practices one hears about those who have left Mormonism – an individual case is something else…but when there is a pattern of behaviors…there is truth to the matter.

I appreciate your reasonableness and good will. I can witness to your good will…but as Paul here has shown, and the links Rebecca has shared with us, as well as Catholics who live in SLC and the issues they have to live with down there…there is another side of Mormonism.

Try to go to a Catholic Mass…go a number of times…listen, watch the liturgy, listen to the homily, the lives of the saints…special feast days…see the devotion to the Eucharist.

Christ is God. He did not fail. He gave us all we need. God bless you!

 

[KathleenGee]

My pastor was sharing with us that the more Christians break away from the apostolic church, the more difficult it is for them to identify and relate to our faith as Catholics. They have lost so much of the sacraments, the tradition of faith and practice. I find the mainline Christians more understandable and relating, and not placing themselves in such opposition.

I noticed Cal is here. I am fairly new to CAF and do not know what it means to be an observing member…

There are many non-denominational Christians who consider the Catholic Church a man made religion, and have no interest in studying history.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

If you read the bible you will see that the most important foundational doctrine of both Judaism and Christianity is Monotheism - the truth that there is only ONE GOD.

The bible says this so often and so forcefully that I cannot understand how anyone could read it and not understand. If you choose to deny this one foundational (and essential) truth, then you are not a Christian. It is that simple.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

Hi Paul,

First, I’m glad to talk to you. I feel that if we both stay humble and teachable and non-argumentative (not easy!), we can have a constructive conversation. I myself expect to learn something.

Secondly, let me assure you that I personally believe there is only one God–unless you want to call the person of the Son one God and the person of the Father another God as does Hebrews 1:8-9. I believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons who make up one God.

It is my understanding that the LDS does not serve any God except the God of the Bible. I also understand the Bible to teach that if you serve only the one true God, you are saved, even though you may be deceived about how many gods exist.

I believe 1 Corinthians 8 has an example of a Christian who, because of his or her weak conscience, thought of idols as real.
If you’ll allow me, I’ll quote just the key phrases in 1 Cor. 8 (NIV) that support what I just said:
“We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one [v. 4]. . . . For us there is but one God, the Father . . . and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ [v. 6]. . . . But not everyone knows this. . . . their conscience is weak [v. 7].”
Then vv. 11-13 indicate Paul was referring to a brother in the above verses.
The NIV Study Bible says brother here refers to a Christian.

(I’m glad you’re a happy Catholic. I’d love to hear your whole story. )

 

[PaulDupre]

Hi Paul,

First, I’m glad to talk to you. I feel that if we both stay humble and teachable and non-argumentative (not easy!), we can have a constructive conversation. I myself expect to learn something.

Secondly, let me assure you that I personally believe there is only one God–unless you want to call the person of the Son one God and the person of the Father another God as does Hebrews 1:8-9. I believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons who make up one God.

Hi Cal,
By the way, I am a graduate of Cal State Fullerton (in case that is what your name refers to).

I don’t think that Heb 1:8-9 can be seen as implying a duality of Gods or that one could make a good argument that such was the author’s intent. The bible taken as an organic whole would be very inconsistent with such a view, and I believe that the first principle of biblical exegesis is to consider each passage in light of the bible as a whole. I assume that you, as an Evangelical, would agree.

In my view, the passage is very consonant with the rest of the bible. Heb 1:8-9 alludes to Psalm 45:7-8 where it was applied to King David (god with a small g) but in Heb it is applied to Jesus with a capital G - the lesson being that Jesus, like David, is the rightful King of the Jews. It is also consonant in verse 9 “…therefore God, your God, annointed you with the oil of gladness…” because Jesus Himself said “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God”.

In verses 10-12, the OT is a quote from Psalm 102:26-28 addressed to God, and in Heb applied to Jesus, a clear statement that Jesus is God. Thomas also called Jesus “My Lord and My God” (John 20:17).

These and many other passages, coupled with the frequent repetition that there is only one God, plus Jesus’ teaching that “I am in the Father and the Father is in Me” and “I and the Father are One” make it pretty clear that The Father and The Son must be one in being - One God.

The vocabulary necessary to discuss the trinity was not developed fully until the 4th century. Much of it developed within the Church Councils seeking to defend and explain the truth (already believed since the apostles time) against heretics.

I believe (from reading the bible and then the ECFs in chronological order and seeing the same truths expressed more clearly as time passed) that the biblical authors had the much the same trinitarian understanding that we do today, but did not have the vocabulary necessary to express it in the very precise terms we use today in defense of orthodoxy. They did quite well regardless, IMO.

Your thoughts?

Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

It is my understanding that the LDS does not serve any God except the God of the Bible.

If that is true for some Mormons it is in spite of, and not because of, the LDS religion.

I also understand the Bible to teach that if you serve only the one true God, you are saved, even though you may be deceived about how many gods exist.

I agree with you there (does that surprise you?). In fact, I’ll go you one better: The bible says that even those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the true God at all can be saved if they live righteously according to the best information they have.

I don’t believe that Church affiliation is necessarily dispositive when it comes to salvation. It is my opinion that Catholicism gives one more spiritual weapons to wield via the sacraments, but each of us must work out his salvation in fear and trembling before the Lord.

The bible is pretty clear, in my view, that we will be judged according to what we do, not what we believe. See Matt 25:31-46 as my favorite example.

I am quite passionate (you may have noticed ) in my conviction that the Catholic Church is Christ’s one true church and teaches all the truth and that Jesus wants all of us to perfectly joined to her, but I don’t think I have ever said or implied that a non-Catholic or non-Christian cannot be saved or has less of a chance at salvation than I do. I hope I’ve never implied that because I certainly don’t believe it.

God love you,
Paul

 

[RebeccaJ]

Lefty0908, “The Seer” was published under the direction of Brigham Young who had assigned and authorized Pratt to print pamphlets, periodicals, books and other published material in defense of Mormon doctrine. “The Seer” was published for this purpose in Washington, D.C.

When Orson Pratt had a major disagreement with Young’s Adam-God doctrine, he printed rebuttal sort of teachings in “The Seer”. This didn’t go over well with Young, being corrected by a Mormon apostle in a public disagreement. Pratt was threatened with excommunication by Young and his supporters. When the leaders of the LDS condemned “The Seer”, it was over the disputes that Pratt was having with Young over the Adam-God doctrine.

This puts modern Mormons in a bit of bind, and causes revisionist history to appear and be taught in Mormon classrooms. Modern Mormons deny that Young’s Adam-God doctrine is doctrine, and have relegated it to opinion. The very position that Pratt was taking in “The Seer”, and which caused it to no longer be printed. “The Seer”, however, is still sited in official LDS material and manuals.

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To the subject of Orson Pratt and Mormon scripture. The “Book of Abraham” was originally printed in the Nauvoo newspaper, “Times And Seasons”. Pratt reprinted it in England, where, the apostle Franklin D. Richards used it in a 1854 compilation titled, “The Pearl Of Great Price”. This publication was brought home to Utah by missionaries, and it became very popular among Utah Mormons.

Pratt was assigned by Pres. John Taylor to edit a 1878 version in SLC, which was very heavily edited by Pratt and changed significantly from the 1854 English version.

Pratt is also considered the most likely author of the Mormon Articles Of Faith.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Rebecca, for your clarification…

I am reading ongoing documents of early Christians…and the one given here in regards to St. Sixtus is a very different expression of that of Mormonism.

If the Mormons are changing their beliefs again, that they are now denying whatever beliefs, concepts, practices, antipathy towards Catholicism, to be fair…then what are their beliefs now?

The witness in regards to St. Sixtus…this spirit and perspective remains.

As Paul has explained, Catholics regard Scripture from its whole, each part connecting to another. IF one were to study the Mass, not through Mormon or Christian fundamentalist lens, then one would find that the Mass is indeed the final piece that brings the entire Scriptures together.

There are a number of books out on the Scriptural roots of the Mass. The tone, spirit, intent of the Mass is the same as it was at the end of the first century. Christianity is to bring us new life in Christ. Another insightful study of the Mass, very deep, is Pope Benedict’s ‘The Spirit of the LIturgy’.

I would recommend all Catholics here, and if possible those who go to other churches or religions to study the Mass from Catholic sources…to study in prayer.

Worship was defined by God in Moses in the Old Testament. Christ defined the new worship…He the living Temple in the Mass, defined not by men, but by Christ Himself to His apostles…‘Do this in memory of Me’. The Mass carries us into the movement of the Holy Spirit to draw us closer each day to the Lord in heaven, our faith in Christ and in worshipping Him in the Mass carries us more into a transcendent faith.

There is no place to denigrate others, because if people base their religion construct that they are better or the other corrupt, it is a reflection of men but not the Savior and Redeemer Christ…He is not in labels.

John Paul defended the Church and the papacy. If our construct is that Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected, He is all that there is, and the message simply is that we seek Him for our salvation. Christ did not come to condemn or to exalt a certain class of men.

The Resurrected Lord draws all men and all creation to Himself. If one is in this movement of the Lord, one sees others in a different light…people of good will are all in the process of being drawn to Him; He waits at the door of the heart of every person.

I say this in regards to the Mormon people themselves. True faith does not need to constantly cover up, constantly re invent itself or label Christianity in the way Mormonism has done. You can’t knock others down, to bring yourself up before God.