Is Mormonism a Polytheistic religion?

[lax16]

Hi mwok,

I had in mind the facts revealed in an article in Esquire Magazine (I think) years ago that documented the banks, mortgage institutions, real estate holdings, and other financial assets that are owned by the LDS organization. Even then, one could see the point of the article, which was that the Mormons are in a position to control the country. I was wondering if Paul (or others) knew where that information is available today, and whether it has been updated.

Jim Dandy

Hello Jim Dandy -

Were you thinking of this Time magazine article called Mormons, Inc.?

www.time.com/time/magazine/0,9263,7601970804,00.html

Unfortunately, it doesn’t appear that we can access the article.

 

[KathleenGee]

Here is an answer to Joseph Smith’s native intelligence, and the veracity of the Mormon founders.

Think of how they compare with Christ’s original Apostles the Mormons said were not capable of appointing successors, only them, nobody else.

www.mormonthink.com/lying.htm

I would tend to back off from any claims to polytheism…considering the foundation.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

If Paul has written to me again, or anyone else, I’ll get back to you later. . . . a little busy here. Thax.

 

[PaulDupre]

Here is an answer to Joseph Smith’s native intelligence, and the veracity of the Mormon founders.

Think of how they compare with Christ’s original Apostles the Mormons said were not capable of appointing successors, only them, nobody else.

www.mormonthink.com/lying.htm

I would tend to back off from any claims to polytheism…considering the foundation.

That article is a devastating indictment of LDS “prophets and apostles”. But then again, most LDS would not care because they still believe that lying for the Lord (or more correctly, for the Church) is acceptable and even praiseworthy.

We see it on this forum on an almost daily basis.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes I see it when I am here…and am not up to doing alot of work demonstrating documents…too old…put my energy more into prayer. It doesn’t work either when it looks like others come in to defend them, but then I don’t think they know how we experience Mormon teachings and the impact they have on us.

As Catholics, the tenants of our faith come from Christ, they are binding, and we know God’s presence and affirmation in them. Anything so contrary cannot help but have Catholics react as we do some times.

Prayer and penance.

Sorry about my double post…

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD, I would be interested in hearing your view on this.

Irishmen10 claims to be LDS, but you appear to have differing views on this.

Hi, one of the Twopekinguys,

Here is Irishmen10’s entire quote:

We acknowledge the fact that there are more “Gods” than just our God but we worship only ONE God and that is God The Father. We do believe that God The Father and Jesus Christ the Son of God and the Holy Ghost or the Spirit of the Lord are three distinct and separate individuals but to say that we worship three different Gods is false. These three individuals that make up what we call the Godhead are ONE in purpose. God the Father is the father of our spirits. He is the only one that we worship. Jesus Christ is our older brother and Savior. Without Him we would not be able to return and live with our Heavenly Father. The Holy Ghost or the Spirit is a comforter that the Lord sends to give us hope, or answers, or guidence, the role of the Holy Ghost is mainly to provide us with comfort and to testify of Jesus Christ. I keep reading on these threads that because we believe that the Godhead are three separate individuals that we worship three different Gods. In order for them to be different, they can’t be ONE in purpose. All three work to get us back to live with our Heavenly Father, thats it. There’s no God of War or God of Xbox or anyother type of God. God is God the Father, the only one we worship.

The closest thing I can compare this to is the Virgin Mary, catholics don’t worship her, they venerate her, they hold her just under Christ. Same with the Saints. Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost answer to God the Father…Thus, we worship God the Father and HIM only.

I agree with Irishmen10’s first paragraph given the connotations he/she seems to be using for the capitalized word “God” and for the word “worship” in the specific context he/she used, and given also the OP question which uses a Greek-origin word that is loaded with its own connotations since it has a built-in implication of Greek mythology, as Irishmen10 noted in the last sentence of his/her first paragraph.

I don’t agree with Irishmen10’s second paragraph, first through third sentences. I don’t think that kind of comparison is “closest”.

It is evident to me from the discussion on this thread, that the words “One in purpose” are inadequate for describing Latter-day Saint beliefs about the Godhead given that people evidently take those words and the words “God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost” and make those words mean “Three separately identifiable and describable Gods who are One in purpose” rather than “One God” which is what the Book of Mormon repeatedly says specifically in talking about the Godhead (in itself a New Testament word).

I have observed that different Catholics, unless they just quote a creed, have different ways of describing One God and monotheism. So I think it ultimately is a discussion that ends up in confusion about specific underlying beliefs the more they are delved into.

The connotation for the word “worship” as used by Irishmen10 is the same connotation as used by Christ in John 4:21-24 when He spoke with the woman of Samaria.

The connotation for the words “God the Father” in Latter-day Saint use is the same connotation as the word “Father” and the word “God” in that passage, John 4:21-24. God the Father is the Supreme Ruler of the universe, the Supreme Being, always He to whom Jesus prayed when He prayed, including when He prayed His intercessory prayer which is when He prayed that “they” (meaning the apostles and believers in Him) “may be one, even as we are one.” (John 17:22)

Jesus also said “for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world” (v. 24) and said “O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee…” Given those words, I don’t think it is a good idea for “the world” to think they should take the Jewish beliefs about God and circumscribe those beliefs over beliefs that acknowledge Jesus Christ as the Son of God, God the Son, the Word who was made flesh and dwelt among us whom the Jewish beliefs did not accept. So I think to say that “Jewish monotheism” (which I don’t agree is even true about their beliefs anciently since Yahweh and Elohim are separate words used for their beliefs about God) and “Catholic monotheism” are the “same monotheism” is an untrue statement, and I think the word “monotheism” is inadequate to describe either of those sets of beliefs about God, the Trinity, or the Godhead.

 

[catholic-rcia]

amazon.com/Theology-Beginners-F-J-Sheed/dp/0892831243

Parker you should get this book and read it.
(Theology for beginners)

I think it should be mandatory, not to take away your free will choice. But I think this post should go dormant until you read it. E-mail me at utahmission@aol.com, anyone , to let me know Parker has read it and I will come back.

Here are some reviews from Amazon, I believe 39 of them. The LDS that come to our Church absolutely love this book, speak about how it helped them make the break through.
Product Description
Theology for Beginners has been acclaimed as one of the outstanding modern introductions to theology. It is a clear, precise, a nd inspiring com-pendium of the central doctrines of the Christian faith.

Reviews:

"If you want to know God in a more profound way, this is the book to read. Sheed really delivers with his easy-to-understand, explanations about the mysteries of God, the Trinity, Mary and the Catholic faith. There were so many “lightbulbs turned on” in reading this book that I now feel immensely closer to God and more knowledgeable of His plan and His works. This book is invaluable as an introduction to Theology.
I am now reading Sheed’s “Theology and Sanity”, which is a deeper study of the subjects found in “Theology for Beginners”.

“Theology for Beginners” is a MUST READ for anyone who wants to know God better.
Sheed’s “Theology for Beginners” is an excellent book. It is easy to read, and explains some difficult topics of Catholicism in an easy to understand style. Even if you only plan to read one or two books on your faith, I think this should definitely be one of them."

I cannot give any book higher regard than I do “Theology for Beginners” by F. Sheed. I felt my spirit tingling with joy as I read this book, and found it as much a page-turner as ANY book, fiction or otherwise, I have ever read.

Mr. Sheed is one of those rare men who has an immense knowledge, yet can explain it in a way that makes it not only a pleasure to read but understandable as well. He brings to light the three most important concepts in life and theology: spirit, infinite and eternal. When reading Mr. Sheeds explanations of these concepts your view of life will likely be irrevocably changed.

If you want to know God, if you think you already know God, if you want to love God, if you already profess to love God, PLEASE read this book. Whatever God-laden yeast you bring to this book it will rise 100 fold into a baker’s loaf!

Even if you doubt God exists, or think His existence can’t be arrived at logically or by reason, read this book because you have a surprise waiting for you.

Forgive my exhuberance but I LOVE THIS BOOK - you will to.
P.S. Also read another book of Mr. Sheed’s entitled “Theology and Sanity”.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Hijack Alert! I saw the video of Warren Jeffs preparing his young female flock for their destiny of pleasing him sexually on the late o’clock news last night. This was the evidence presented against him in court. See my post #115 at the thread “Mormonism, Polygamy, and Warren Jeffs.”.I was so rattled by it that I’m certain my report is not 100% correct. If anyone else saw it, please post an accurate description.

I understand that these videos are being shown especially in AZ and UT. This is probably because both states have “The Prophet” Jeffs and his polygamous Fundamentalist Mormon colony in residence. They are living the teachings and practices of Mormon founder Joseph Smith. It’s a huge problem in AZ (where I live) because of the costs of unsupported, fatherless, polygamous families with many children who are on welfare… But these states have been reluctant to enforce the anti-polygamy laws for reasons unknown. (Political reasons, in actuality.)

Anyway, the polytheism debate resumes.

 

[Miriam1947]

Another great book by Frank Sheeds is: To Know Christ Jesus

I think this is my favorite book about Christ.

 

[twopekinguys]

Hi, one of the Twopekinguys,

Here is Irishmen10’s entire quote:

I agree with Irishmen10’s first paragraph given the connotations he/she seems to be using for the capitalized word “God” and for the word “worship” in the specific context he/she used, and given also the OP question which uses a Greek-origin word that is loaded with its own connotations since it has a built-in implication of Greek mythology, as Irishmen10 noted in the last sentence of his/her first paragraph.

I don’t agree with Irishmen10’s second paragraph, first through third sentences. I don’t think that kind of comparison is “closest”.

It is evident to me from the discussion on this thread, that the words “One in purpose” are inadequate for describing Latter-day Saint beliefs about the Godhead given that people evidently take those words and the words “God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost” and make those words mean “Three separately identifiable and describable Gods who are One in purpose” rather than “One God” which is what the Book of Mormon repeatedly says specifically in talking about the Godhead (in itself a New Testament word).

I have observed that different Catholics, unless they just quote a creed, have different ways of describing One God and monotheism. So I think it ultimately is a discussion that ends up in confusion about specific underlying beliefs the more they are delved into.

The connotation for the word “worship” as used by Irishmen10 is the same connotation as used by Christ in John 4:21-24 when He spoke with the woman of Samaria.

The connotation for the words “God the Father” in Latter-day Saint use is the same connotation as the word “Father” and the word “God” in that passage, John 4:21-24. God the Father is the Supreme Ruler of the universe, the Supreme Being, always He to whom Jesus prayed when He prayed, including when He prayed His intercessory prayer which is when He prayed that “they” (meaning the apostles and believers in Him) “may be one, even as we are one.” (John 17:22)

Jesus also said “for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world” (v. 24) and said “O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee…” Given those words, I don’t think it is a good idea for “the world” to think they should take the Jewish beliefs about God and circumscribe those beliefs over beliefs that acknowledge Jesus Christ as the Son of God, God the Son, the Word who was made flesh and dwelt among us whom the Jewish beliefs did not accept. So I think to say that “Jewish monotheism” (which I don’t agree is even true about their beliefs anciently since Yahweh and Elohim are separate words used for their beliefs about God) and “Catholic monotheism” are the “same monotheism” is an untrue statement, and I think the word “monotheism” is inadequate to describe either of those sets of beliefs about God, the Trinity, or the Godhead.

Thanks Parker,

Due to limited time, I am going to be very blunt here.

1. You are agreeing that in mormon theology, there is more than one god, but you don’t worship all of them. Just the one for our world. Right?
2. Does that mean that the god that you worship, worships another god?
3. who created the god of this world?
4. If you are saying the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all Gods individually, then you would be polytheistic. Right?

I hate to say this, but in a round about way, you have confirmed that mormons are in fact polytheistic.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

I believe the essence (being, substance, nature) of God is described in the Bible with such words as truth, love, righteousness, etc. I can see how someone could distinguish God’s (and Christ’s and the Holy Spirit’s) essence from their character, but I don’t believe they can separate from each other. In other words, I believe that wherever God’s essence goes, his love goes, too. If God’s love could separate from his essence, then God could continue to exist without his goodness. But 1 John says “God IS love.” If His love left his essence, that essence would no longer be God. Does that make any sense?

If anyone agrees with that—and I realize it may take lots of prayer & fasting before one can say whether one agrees with it or not—then please read the following quote of Joseph Smith and then ask yourself (and God) if it’s possible that the LDS does recognize a common essence binding Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together:

“Each God in the Godhead is a personage, separate and distinct from each of the others, yet they are ‘One God,’ meaning that they are united as one in the attributes of perfection. For instance, each has the fullness of truth, knowledge, charity, power, justice, judgment, mercy, and faith.”—Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, comp. Joseph Fielding Smith (Salt Lake City: Deseret, 1976), 345-47.

Following is another statement of Joseph Smith’s that I became aware of only about an hour ago(!) from his Lectures on Faith. According to the Mormon who provided it, the statement continues to be used in LDS instructional materials:
“God is the only supreme governor and independent being in whom all fullness and perfection dwell; who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient; without beginning of days or end of life; and that in him every good gift and every good principle dwell; and that he is the Father of lights; in him the principle of faith dwells independently. . . .”

I believe if we find an LDS statement that seems to disagree with another LDS statement, it is an indicator that we need to do more research before concluding what they believe. Since LDS authorities wouldn’t purposely disagree with themselves, we need to dig some more to find out what they mean when they say such and such.

I’m sorry I don’t have time at this juncture to read all reactions to my last comment. I hope to eventually.

Love to all!

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Hello Jim Dandy -

Were you thinking of this Time magazine article called Mormons, Inc.?

www.time.com/time/magazine/0,9263,7601970804,00.html

Unfortunately, it doesn’t appear that we can access the article.

A million thanks for the link. I was able to read the article. Verrrrrrry interesting. The magazine I had in mind (Esquire sticks in my mind) was from the 1970’s (?). But, though it’s not quite the same focus, this TIME article is very revealing about Mormon assets.

If you can’t access the link, I can cut and paste the article for you, if you give me your email. It’s 9 pages. PM me.

With regard to the OP question, TIME reported the answer in this article you linked:

QUOTE
Mormons reject the label polytheistic pinned on them by other Christians; they believe that humans deal with only one God. Yet they allow for other deities presiding over other worlds. Smith stated that God was once a humanlike being who had a wife and in fact still has a body of “flesh and bones.” Mormons also believe that men, in a process known as deification, may become God-like. Lorenzo Snow, an early President and Prophet, famously aphorized, “As man is now, God once was; as God now is, man may become.”
END QUOTE

The article is wrong about the process being labeled “deification.” Deification is the Catholic and Orthodox process described by St. Paul as, “it is not I but Christ who lives in me.” It has nothing to do with becoming a god. The Mormon doctrine is known as ‘exaltation,’

QUOTE
These are some of the special blessings given to exalted persons:

1, They will live eternally in the presence of our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).

2, They will become gods.

3, They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. [That is, they will be worshipped.]. . .

1. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have, all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. . . .

REQUIREMENTS FOR EXALTATION

1. Pay honest tithes and offerings

END QUOTE

Tithing 10% and more is enforced. Which explains why the LDS organization has so much money.

WHAT KIND OF BEING IS GOD?

QUOTE
God is a glorified and perfected man, a personage of flesh and bones, inside his tangible body is an eternal spirit" page 6 [and all spirit is matter, D&C 131:7-8,]

Source: Gospel Principles, 1988, published by the LDS

 

[hosemonkey]

So if I am understanding the meaning drawn from Acts 3:23 by Catholics, Catholics think that Peter was saying that God was going to “destroy” everyone who didn’t believe in Christ? Does that mean eliminate, as in completely destroy?

ParkerD, how is it that the documents that you claim as mormon canon(that is “canon” BTW, not cannon) Are of such dubious credibility? The BOM, a work of invention and plagiarism, no “plates” involved. The KJV edition of the Bible, a work compiled and canonized by an “apostate Church” and certainly NOT the one “correctly translated” by the false “prophet” Joseph Smith. The D & C, a chronicle of the false “prophecies” of the man Joseph Smith. And the POGP, a day to day account of mundane church business. Pretty thin stuff upon which to base your salvation, don’t you think? You seem a decent fellow, with some intelligence. How did you get sucked in by this fraud?
“The word means exactly what I want it to mean, no more, and no less.”
The Caterpillar, Alice in Wonderland.

 

[lax16]

A million thanks for the link. I was able to read the article. Verrrrrrry interesting. The magazine I had in mind (Esquire sticks in my mind) was from the 1970’s (?). But, though it’s not quite the same focus, this TIME article is very revealing about Mormon assets.

You’re welcome! I will try to access the article and if I can’t you’ll be hearin’ from me!

If you can’t access the link, I can cut and paste the article for you, if you give me your email. It’s 9 pages. PM me.

I have wanted to read this article as I have heard many people refer to life here in Utah as “Mormon, Inc”.

With regard to the OP question, TIME reported the answer in this article you linked:

QUOTE
Mormons reject the label polytheistic pinned on them by other Christians; they believe that humans deal with only one God. Yet they allow for other deities presiding over other worlds. Smith stated that God was once a humanlike being who had a wife and in fact still has a body of “flesh and bones.” Mormons also believe that men, in a process known as deification, may become God-like. Lorenzo Snow, an early President and Prophet, famously aphorized, “As man is now, God once was; as God now is, man may become.”
END QUOTE

Well, according to the definition of polytheism, it is the belief that there is more than one God out there that seals the deal here.

It doesn’t matter if the LDS worship more than one God, it only matters that they believe that there are multiple gods in existence.

So, yes, Mormons are polytheistic.

The article is wrong about the process being labeled “deification.” Deification is the Catholic and Orthodox process described by St. Paul as, “it is not I but Christ who lives in me.” It has nothing to do with becoming a god. The Mormon doctrine is known as ‘exaltation,’

These are some of the special blessings given to exalted persons:

1, They will live eternally in the presence of our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).

2, They will become gods.

3, They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. [That is, they will be worshipped.]. . .

1. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have, all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. . . .

REQUIREMENTS FOR EXALTATION

1. Pay honest tithes and offerings

END QUOTE

Tithing 10% and more is enforced. Which explains why the LDS organization has so much money.

Yes, that and being in the grocery, health care, insurance and other businesses…

WHAT KIND OF BEING IS GOD?

QUOTE
God is a glorified and perfected man, a personage of flesh and bones, inside his tangible body is an eternal spirit" page 6 [and all spirit is matter, D&C 131:7-8,]

Source: Gospel Principles, 1988, published by the LDS

I am assuming this is a revelation by JS?
I wonder why Moses never saw God as a person?

 

[ParkerD]

Thanks Parker,

Due to limited time, I am going to be very blunt here.

1. You are agreeing that in mormon theology, there is more than one God, but you don’t worship all of them. Just the one for our world. Right?
2. Does that mean that the God that you worship, worships another God?
3. Who created the God of this world?
4. If you are saying the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all Gods individually, then you would be polytheistic. Right?

I hate to say this, but in a round about way, you have confirmed that mormons are in fact polytheistic.

Hi, again, one of twopekinguys,

I’m glad we’re able to “be blunt”. Thanks.

I’ll answer #4 first:

1. It was pointed out to me during the conversation on this thread, by Zaffiroborant and by SteveVH, that either they individually as Catholics, or that Catholics generally believe that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost have individuality as separate Persons. That would mean they are “Gods individually” since They are each God. So if that “makes me polytheistic”, then that makes at least two Catholics polytheistic–but I understand “they don’t think so” (nor do I–it is the wrong word for their beliefs, just as it is the wrong word for my beliefs).
2. I suggest that you study up on the word “create” so that you will be able to understand that neither Jesus Christ nor God the Father nor the Holy Ghost are Created Beings. So, the answer to your question is “They are each God in and of Themselves, omnipotent, omniscient, possessing all the attributes of God, uncreated.”
3. No. But the love He has for His Only Begotten Son, and the love His Only Begotten Son has for Him, must really move Them to tears of infinite gratitude and joy often for Each Other, so much more than the gratitude we feel for Them.
4. As I explained, in the context of John 4:23-24, I know Whom I worship, and I worship the Father in the name of His Only Begotten Son, giving glory and awe and reverence to Them both. “The true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”

I will explain again, that I don’t find that Catholics understand the Intercessory prayer and its meaning in Christ’s use of the word “one”–so the use of the words “more than one God” only again confirms that and reinforces that it appears that John 17 is not a chapter in the Bible that Catholics seem to read very much, nor understand.

 

[KathleenGee]

St. Paul had a glimpse of heaven, and he said we cannot imagine what awaits us…I am sure he did not see heaven as a continuation of the species, albeit spirit ones.

St. Thomas Aquinas was levitated up and saw for an instant heaven…and said just one brief glimpse…made all his writings about God—seem as straw.

Heaven is finally seeing face to face the One True God Who is the only one who can fill our deepest needs.

 

[RebeccaJ]

ParkerD,

First, the Holy Trinity is: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Three distinct Persons, ONE IN BEING. I know this has been explained to you several times. But for some reason, you keep ignoring us.

Second: When we pray to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit hear our prayers. When we pray to the Son, the Father and the Holy Spirit hear our prayers, and, when we pray to the Holy Spirit, the Father and the Son hear our prayers. This is because, when we pray to God, we are praying to One God in Three Persons.

The Father IS GOD.
The Son IS GOD.
The Holy Spirit IS GOD.

We are not speaking about three Gods, but One. This is the nature of God, as revealed in Scripture. God is One, in three Persons. Start with “There is but One God.”, say that every time your mind starts going down Mormon polytheist belief. “There is but One God.” When you’re thinking of all the gods that are possible, stop yourself, and say, “There is but One God.” Perhaps this will cause you to pause in your thought process long enough to observe yourself, your beliefs, and if you really, truly, honestly have forsaken the idea of any other God but the One True God of Christianity. Because no one here can see that you have. Not as long as you keep repeating this erroneous idea that the Holy Trinity is not One God.

I think Rich has it right, please pick up the books he has recommended and read them. It is OK for you to learn and understand Christian doctrine.

 

[lax16]

It was pointed out to me during the conversation on this thread, by Zaffiroborant and by SteveVH, that either they individually as Catholics, or that Catholics generally believe that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost have individuality as separate Persons. That would mean they are “Gods individually” since They are each God. So if that “makes me polytheistic”, then that makes at least two Catholics polytheistic–but I understand “they don’t think so” (nor do I–it is the wrong word for their beliefs, just as it is the wrong word for my beliefs).

Hi Parker - I know you were not responding to me but I have a question.

Do you understand that it is the LDS belief that there are **other gods **other than God the Father that makes Mormons polytheistic? Not counting the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ, Mormons agree that there are other gods ruling planets. That is polytheism.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hi Parker - I know you were not responding to me but I have a question.

Do you understand that it is the LDS belief that there are **other gods **other than God the Father that makes Mormons polytheistic? Not counting the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ, Mormons agree that there are other gods ruling planets. That is polytheism.

Don’t forget the goddesses!

 

[lax16]

Don’t forget the goddesses!

Oh, they believe in gods and goddesses? Do Mormons really struggle with the label polytheists? Or is it just bad PR?

I am a little confused. They seem quick to admit that they believe there are many gods (and goddesses) in the universe but are not willing to accept that they are believers in more than one God.