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dianaiad
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If you want to believe that for yourselves, fine. The problem comes when you insist that I agree with you.
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dianaiad
Guest
Actually?
1 Cor. 15: 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
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dianaiad
Guest
Well, let’s see, Jake; this forum is called “Non-Catholic religions.”
That might be your first clue. We were invited.
How about you? What are you doing on a forum called “non-Catholic religions?”
By the way, Jake, what ward were you in?
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Paul_G
Guest
We both have reasons to reject each other’s authority despite institutional longevity.
I’m not sure, is the word you’re trying for “occult”.
“Us people” participate here for the same reason, I would think, we invite you to join us in conversation on our sites - exchange of ideas. As I read through the various threads I see answers to posts, by LDS, to clarify what it is that we teach, not a putdown of what you believe. Nobody says you have to believe what we say, only that we believe what we say.
Paul
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Paul_G
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RebeccaJ;4686409 said:
I think pertaining to former LDS members such as yourself, your edit is correct. However, I don’t use that term for members of other churches who, in good conscience believe or practice differently than myself.
Paul
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Perhaps you do not. Other members of your church do.
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Paul_G
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From my own study, I believe that early in its development changes were made in the Church which moved away from what I believe the apostles or Jesus had intended. So yes I do believe that there was a gradual institutional apostasy from the original believes of the Church. As I said, I don’t believe in referring to people who remain faithful to the organisation they belong to as apostates.
Paul
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RebeccaJ
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Interesting. It is how I view mormonism, the organization does not teach Christianity. People who are mormons do believe they follow Christ. I have no problem calling most individuals who are mormons, Christian.
Mormonism itself is not Christian, the people are, to a point. That point being where mormon beliefs and practices diverge into error and heresy.
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dianaiad
Guest
The entire basis of our faith is that there was an apostasy, and that the priesthood authority to perform ordinances had to be restored, along with some lost religious truths… The basis for the Catholic faith is that there wasn’t an apostasy; thus Protestants are apostate to one degree or another. The basis for Protestant faith is that there was an apostasy, but that they could, by breaking away from the mother church, ‘fix’ it.
Which of course means that each and every one of us thinks that those who do not believe as we do are apostate to one degree or other.
But if you can accept Protestants as Christians (albeit apostate Christians) so do we accept all who believe in Christ as Christians.
Again, the problem is that those who would restrict the title “Christian” to those who believe as they do about Christ are missing the point—and the definition of the term.
“Christian” =/= ‘saved.’
“Christian” =/= 'correct"
“Christian” =/= 'he who believes what I do."
“Christian” means:
relating to or characteristic of Christianity; “Christian rites”
a religious person who believes Jesus is the Christ and who is a member of a Christian denomination
following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ
#A Christian is a person who adheres to Christianity#A believer in Christianity; An individual who seeks to live his or her life according to the principles and values taught by Jesus Christ
#christianity - a monotheistic system of beliefs and practices based on the Old Testament and the teachings of Jesus as embodied in the New Testament and emphasizing the role of Jesus as savior
(and my favorite, the OED)
One who believes or professes the religion of Christ; an adherent of Christianity.
…and Christianity means:
The whole body of Christians, the Christian part of the world,
The religion of Christ; the Christian faith;
The system of doctrines and precepts taught by Christ and his apostles.A Christian religious system.
You will notice, I’m certain, that none of the above definitions actually define what a Christian must believe in order to BE a Christian, except that Jesus the Christ comes into it somewhere.
So when people add on all these “true Christian” requirements to the above definitions, “you have to be a trinitarian…the right kind of trinitarian, to boot” or “you have to be a sola scripturian” or “you have to be sola fidean” or “you have to be ‘saved’”, or you can’t dance or you have to use wine for your communion or you have to not use wine or whatever it is, they are incorrect.
…and they need to closely examine their motives for doing so.
Why DO so many Protestants deny Catholics the use of the word?
Think about it.
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amontoya
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That’s not exactly true. For instance:
Christians, by your own definition, must be monotheistic. A plurality of gods (men becoming gods) is not monotheism, its polytheism. So, by your definition, mormons aren’t Christian.
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RebeccaJ
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That you see this as a “problem” is exactly why mormonism is not considered Christian.
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PJM
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So let me see if I get it right this time
So you believe in One God, three Divine Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? And that this One God shares three seperate, yet unable to be seperated Natures? And that this God (not god’s) is All- everything Good: All Powerful, Knowing, Wise, Loving, Just?
Good, just what are the effects of your immersion? What does this immersion effect? Why is it necessary?
Indeed you do “use it,” as a reference book to attempt to disprove our beliefs, and support you own.
But the point is do you accept it in it’s intirety as "The unfailing, unerring, inspired Word of God? (notice please the capitol “God and singular God-Head.”)So just what is the role of The book of Morman? And the other two books authored by Mr. Smith? Do they suppliment the Bible? Or do they replace the bible?
**2 Timothy 3:1616 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
** Copied by the way from your KJV.
Actually they are notWell, if those are the reasons you don’t think we are Christians, then you should be breathing a huge sigh of relief about now.
How about Jesus Christ a God, Lord and Savior? We Chrsitians belive this do you LDS?How about a very real Heaven and a very real Hell? We Chrsitians belief this. Is this different than your “celestial heaven” where a man who has been married for life, marries his spiritual wife and they have children who then worship THEM, because now they to are “gods?”
We do not accept your unsupported doctrine of “The Great Apostasy” as there is no evidence to support your claim. And yet the RCC can provide a boat-load of evidence for it’s 2000 year continued existance, begaing with the direct, unbroken line of Papal Succession.
I would truly be delighted if you were in agreement on these and many other issues my friend, but oh so sadly, you are in candid truth, NOT.
God bless you and your’s my friend!
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dianaiad
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Neither, in the view point of truly monotheistic religions (like Judaism and Islam) are Catholics, Protestants–indeed any trinitarian.
We are monotheists in that we believe in one Godhead; You are monotheists in that you believe in one God–that has three manifestations of that God.
(wait…isn’t that modalism? And isn’t modalism a heresy?)
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dianaiad
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OK…the reason that I’m not a Christian is because I object to being excluded from the definition of “Christian?”
If I suddenly ceased to object from being excluded, would I then become a Christian in your eyes?
I’ve driven ‘roundabouts’ in England that were less circular than that.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Yes, modalism is a heresy and is not what Christians believe. Neither do Christians sacrifice the unity of God, or create a multiplicity of gods, as mormonism has done.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
If you suddenly accepted the One True God, then yes, Mormonsim would be a Christian religion.
It is mormonism that creates the circles, not Christians. That I point them out doesn’t make me the creator of the circles that you have found yourself navigating.
Me, I stopped following those roads a long time ago.
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amontoya
Guest
Mormons believe in three gods united in purpose. Three gods or many gods, united or not, is polytheism.
Actually, its monarchianism, but yes that’s heresy, and its not what Catholics believe or teach. There are no different “manifestations” of God. He is One, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He is three persons, and One God. He is not several gods who share the same goals.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
‘“I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you, that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,” guarding against those heresies of the wicked one which have broken in upon us, to the deceiving and destruction of those that accept of them; but that ye give heed to the doctrine of the apostles, and believe both the law and the prophets: that ye reject every Jewish and Gentile error, and neither introduce a multiplicity of gods, nor yet deny Christ under the pretence of [maintaining] the unity of God.’ (St Ignatius of Antioch, student of St. John the Apostle)
St Ignatius, pray for us.
St Ignatius, pray for us.
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dianaiad
Guest
from the church website (I want to get this as ‘official’ as I can) we have this:So let me see if I get it right this time
So you believe in One God, three Divine Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? And that this One God shares three seperate, yet unable to be seperated Natures? And that this God (not god’s) is All- everything Good: All Powerful, Knowing, Wise, Loving, Just?
Although the members of the Godhead are distinct beings with distinct roles, they are one in purpose and doctrine. They are perfectly united in bringing to pass Heavenly Father’s divine plan of salvation.
They share this thing…“godhead” They are not separate gods, but one in a Godhead. Trinitarians are very careful in their language regarding the trinity:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.png
When you look at this, put the word “Godhead” in the center circle. It is not ‘essence,’ exactly, but considerably more than a ‘job description.’ It is…Who They are.
(again, from the church website)
Baptism by immersion in water by one having authority is the first saving ordinance of the gospel and is necessary for an individual to become a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and to receive eternal salvation. All who seek eternal life must follow the example of the Savior by being baptized and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Those who are baptized enter into a covenant with God to take upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ, keep His commandments, and serve Him to the end (see Mosiah 18:8–10; D&C 20:37). Church members renew this covenant each time they partake of the sacrament (see D&C 20:77, 79).
Immersion is symbolic of the death of a person’s sinful life and the rebirth into a spiritual life, dedicated to the service of God and His children. It is also symbolic of death and resurrection. (See Romans 6:3–6.)
I said that we use the KJV officially. Do we believe that it is inerrant? Nope. We don’t believe that the Book of Mormon is inerrant, either. Nothing that man has had a hand in can be–at least not in the way I believe you mean it.Indeed you do “use it,” as a reference book to attempt to disprove our beliefs, and support you own.
Wait.
Aren’t you Catholic? Do Catholics believe that the bible is inerrant to the extent that some Protestants do…you know the ones; “The KJV was good enough for Jesus; it’s good enough for me” folks?
They are to the bible what Paul’s letters are to the Gospel of Matthew. EXACTLY that; books of scripture that neither ‘supplement’ nor ‘supplant’ the Bible.
Exactly. All scripture is.**2 Timothy 3:1616 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
** Copied by the way from your KJV.
That Jesus Christ is God, our Savior and Our Redeemer? Why yes, we believe that.Actually they are not
There is so much wrong with the above statement…It’s like untangling a ball of yarn that a cat has been at; before I can knit up the answer, I have to straighten out the question!
You might begin by assuming that you don’t have a clue what our beliefs are. Given what I have seen of your understanding of them so far, that’s a fairly safe assumption. Then form a question and ask it. I’ll do my best to answer you, as I have the other questions in this post.
You want me to be in agreement with you about what you think I "really’ believe–and then abandon those and believe what you do?
I’m sorry, but I can’t do that. I don’t think that you would appreciate me much if I came to you and insisted, not only that you worship Mary and elevate her above her Son, but that you agree with me that you did this, would you?
No, you would, quite rightly, tell me to go pound sand because that is not what you believe. You would also, quite rightly, expect me to accept your word, as a Catholic, that your beliefs are what YOU claim they are, so that if there is going to be a debate about them, the debate would be about doctrines you actually believe in.
So far, sir, your accuracy level about Mormonism is pretty low. You may not believe as I do…but if you are going to criticize me for believing something, you really ought to know what those beliefs actually ARE, first.
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BartBurk
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After reading through this thread, I would have to answer no.
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