Is Mormonism Christian ?

[Paul_G]

I don’t know anything about you.

You said, “they accept Christ as the way of salvation”. Which you suggested is a Christian thing to do. I said “I do that”. My question was based on your words about Christian action. Why would you need to know anything about me.

There is no evidence that prophets are possible. That takes faith. Believing in vampires takes faith, too.

The possibility of their being prophets is indeed possible, the Scripture are full of them. You may want to believe that they are not in existence now ( I can appreciate that), but that does not equate to their being no possibility of the existence of prophets - Because with God nothing is impossible. Now vampires (Dracula style) on the other hand do not exist, never did. So we are still relating the possible to the impossible.

Well, there’s a difference. If you believe the Bible, then they were being thrown into jail for following God. Certain aspects of the Bible have been proven true, so that gives us at least some reason to have a faith in it. The Book of Mormon is contradictory; there are things in it which simply aren’t historically accurate; and Joseph Smith was a crook.

The motivation behind the accusers of both groups of men was I believe the same. There was no Bible at this time the apostles were harassed because of what they taught. The people harassing Joseph Smith did it for the same reason they did like what he preached

I never said he was rich. I said he sought profit, and he did. He was a crook. But, he was killed while in jail not long after the founding of the church, so he didn’t have time to amass great wealth.

I don’t know where you are getting your information, I think a decade would be enough time to amass riches, if his aim was to profit from any of his actions don’t you think.

Paul

 

[Neolithic]

You said, “they accept Christ as the way of salvation”. Which you suggested is a Christian thing to do. I said “I do that”. My question was based on your words about Christian action. Why would you need to know anything about me.

The definition of Christian is: *of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ
*

Therefore, if you accept Jesus Christ as your way of salvation by following His teachings, then you would be, by definition, a Christian. Simply because you choose not to follow mainstream Christian thought does not mean you aren’t a Christian. If that be the requirement, then technically only Catholics are Christian, because at one time, it was the epitome of mainstream Christianity.

The possibility of their being prophets is indeed possible, the Scripture are full of them. You may want to believe that they are not in existence now ( I can appreciate that), but that does not equate to their being no possibility of the existence of prophets - Because with God nothing is impossible. Now vampires (Dracula style) on the other hand do not exist, never did. So we are still relating the possible to the impossible.

Firstly, you imply that the Bible is true - or, the Scripture is true - which is fallacious. We don’t know that it is true; we can merely have a faith that it is true. So, if in fact the Bible is false and there is no God, then prophets are not possible.

Secondly, you just said with God all things are possible. If God exists, could He not create vampires? Sure He could.

The motivation behind the accusers of both groups of men was I believe the same. There was no Bible at this time the apostles were harassed because of what they taught. The people harassing Joseph Smith did it for the same reason they did like what he preached

Joseph Smith was harassed because he endorsed plural marriage, was a crook who claimed to be a prophet, and was generally a feller of poor moral character. I know he’s a liar and a crook, because the Book of Mormon is riddled with inaccuracies and contradictions.

Look at some of them here.

I don’t know where you are getting your information, I think a decade would be enough time to amass riches, if his aim was to profit from any of his actions don’t you think.

Apparently not enough people believed his hogwash while he was alive, but that doesn’t mean is intention wasn’t to amass riches.

 

[wooka64]

Drinking Blood is a abomination He would not do that LOL

Why do you think God Told the Hebrews to cook the meat.Basically

in old testment God tells them not to eat blood cause life is in the

blood. Im sorry buddy that makes no sense Pluse you know that

old movie Dracula the vampire. Dracula means son of the

dragon. Thus lets get off of Vampires.

 

[Neolithic]

Drinking Blood is a abomination He would not do that LOL

Why do you think God Told the Hebrews to cook the meat.Basically

in old testment God tells them not to eat blood cause life is in the

blood. Im sorry buddy that makes no sense Pluse you know that

old movie Dracula the vampire. Dracula means son of the

dragon. Thus lets get off of Vampires.

The point is this: The likelihood of Joseph Smith being a prophet is the same as me being a vampire. He wasn’t a prophet; he was a crook and a liar.

 

[Paul_G]

The definition of Christian is: *of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ
*

Therefore, if you accept Jesus Christ as your way of salvation by following His teachings, then you would be, by definition, a Christian. Simply because you choose not to follow mainstream Christian thought does not mean you aren’t a Christian. If that be the requirement, then technically only Catholics are Christian, because at one time, it was the epitome of mainstream Christianity.

?

Firstly, you imply that the Bible is true - or, the Scripture is true - which is fallacious. We don’t know that it is true; we can merely have a faith that it is true. So, if in fact the Bible is false and there is no God, then prophets are not possible.

Secondly, you just said with God all things are possible. If God exists, could He not create vampires? Sure He could.

Good grief! Well if you think God can do that He can communicate with a man if He chooses, so we are back were we started. Prophets are possible

Joseph Smith was harassed because he endorsed plural marriage, was a crook who claimed to be a prophet, and was generally a feller of poor moral character. I know he’s a liar and a crook, because the Book of Mormon is riddled with inaccuracies and contradictions.

Look at some of them here.

Sorry you do not know any such thing, It appears by your comments your study has not reached past the type of source you linked in the formation of you point of view.

Apparently not enough people believed his hogwash while he was alive, but that doesn’t mean is intention wasn’t to amass riches.

Too much rhetoric without substance to back up you claim. If you have an example we can discuss it. If not there is not much more to say.
Paul

Paul

 

[Paul_G]

here we are again…mormonism or atheism…thanks for recommending atheism.

People around con men who are philanderers with grand ideas of creating their own country (please see the Nauvoo Charter) tend to get people upset. I’m sorry you think this sort of thing is defensible.

JS: convicted of fraud in the Kirtland Bank fiasco and failure, fined $1000, appealed. Numerous lawsuits filed, JS and Sidney Rigdon lost. Both fled to Missouri before the appeal and other lawsuits waiting could go to court.

JS: convicted of fraud in NY for “glass looking”, ie, telling people he could find treasure with a rock and charging for those services. (Something he also tried, as a means to raise cash, before creating the Kirtland Bank.)

JS: jailed, both in Kirtland and in Nauvoo. Kirtland, his followers raised the money for bail. Nauvoo, the city of Nauvoo (comprised almost entirely of Mormons), over ruled THE STATE order to hold him in jail and released him.

I said jail time. You twisted that to jail time for the crimes. If he were tried for his last crime, treason, the possiblity was he would have been in jail for life.

As what this has to do with being a prophet. JS claimed a revelation that he should start the Kirtland Bank and told people that GOD would make it the greatest bank in the country.

Meanwhile, he had a chest full of his bank notes in his vault with a layer of silver coins over the top, so people would believe his fraudulent bank notes were backed by silver.

Also, the bank itself was illegaly setup. When he and Sidney Rigdon applied for a bank charter, it was denied. Having already purchased, at no small expense, the printing plates to print their bank notes, they went ahead and printed bank notes. ILLEGALLY. Backed by nothing.

Tell me, in this similar climate today of bad credit and ponzi schemes…was this fulfilling a “revelation”? I hope to God almighty you say no, otherwise, I worry for your financial well being.

Kirland Bank note, signed by Joseph Smith and Sydney Rigdon:

http://www.mormoncurtain.com/img/kb_3db.jpg

The Nauvoo Charter granted great power to the city but it was not unique in this respect—there were other charters in Illinois were similar. With respect to Nauvoo’s court system, it was more restrictive than other cities’, since it was under the jurisdiction of the country court, while other cities’ were not. The powers granted Nauvoo were not seized by the LDS; they were granted lawfully, and could have been removed lawfully by the legislature.

The Kirtland safety society succumbed to the same pressures that many of the bank that have failed this year had. It appears you know very little of the real issues surrounding the Kirtland safety society

Paul

 

[Neolithic]

?

Good grief! Well if you think God can do that He can communicate with a man if He chooses, so we are back were we started. Prophets are possible

Sorry you do not know any such thing, It appears by your comments your study has not reached past the type of source you linked in the formation of you point of view.

Too much rhetoric without substance to back up you claim. If you have an example we can discuss it. If not there is not much more to say.
Paul

Paul

Sorry your religion has been proved a fraud. I reckon I’d be a bit upset, too.

 

[Deconi]

Once the last Apostle died, all prophecies ended. I only mention that because of St.John and Revelation.

In reality and as a matter of logic, especially for Christians or those who profess (or imagine) themselves Christians, there are no more prophets, since their purpose had been fulfilled!

All who claim to be prophets or lauded as prophets since Christ, are…delluded.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The Nauvoo Charter granted great power to the city but it was not unique in this respect—there were other charters in Illinois were similar.

There were hundreds of settlements in Illinois, only five others had charters.

With respect to Nauvoo’s court system, it was more restrictive than other cities’, since it was under the jurisdiction of the country court, while other cities’ were not.

The powers given to the city were such that they could create laws that were in direct conflict with state and US Constitution. Essentially, they were federated. Also unique was that the city was granted the ability to build a militia, which militia also had the same powers as the city council, to create laws.

The powers granted Nauvoo were not seized by the LDS; they were granted lawfully, and could have been removed lawfully by the legislature.

They were in fact removed by the legislature.

The Kirtland safety society succumbed to the same pressures that many of the bank that have failed this year had. It appears you know very little of the real issues surrounding the Kirtland safety society

Paul

It appears to me you have one excuse: others were doing it.

What you, and most Mormons fail to recognize, is that it was not a bank. It never had a legal charter. It was nothing but an illegal front that Smith and Rigdon were using to raise cash.

Let alone the dodging of the point that Smith claimed he received a prophecy, that his bank would be the greatest in the country. A failed prophecy, which is a sure sign that the person claiming to be a prophet, is no such thing.

 

[jake23]

Joseph Smith also required a liquer liscense. that is public record and anyone can pull that up. Jospeh Smith was given a Papyri to look at and JS calimed that through god he could translate the Heiroglyphs. JS said the pictures where of abraham being offered as a sacrifice by a false priest to gods. Mormons vendicated this as proof that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. This Papryi was lost and found again in 1967 where Egyptoligists viewed and gave the correct transaltion which was a funerary text from the book of the dead. It is displayed today in the New York museum. They also found this funerary text under the heads of mummys which was a sign to draw bad spirits away. So we can prove that on this Joseph Smith was defintely lying about god giving him the gift to translate it! the funny thing is that it is still displayed in the mormons pearl of great price even thought there is unquestionable hard proof that the transaltion was false!

Do any mormons care to respond to this? Have any mormons taken God seriouse enough to even investigate this? This is the one thing that is not matter of opinion and does not have any gray areas. It is proof atleast with this that Joseph Smith lied. Do any of you even know about this?

 

[look3467]

The best way to win someone over is to demonstrate the love of Christ in our conversations, our thoughts and our walk.

If a good Mormon family and a good Catholic family lived side by side in a neighborhood, could we tell by observation which one is walking with God?

What if, the Catholic went over to the neighbors house and offered his services of friendship without regard to the neighbors beliefs, would that show something good?

What if, the situation was reversed?

The problem arises when one or the other imposes ones own conscience on the other as the true, right and correct way of worshiping God.

Now, if all that is said about JS is true, then let it be.

God knows their hearts and will direct them unto your path for observation and perhaps, based on your walk, they just might be persuaded to listen to you.

Mat 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

You are that city whose light can not be hid, and where the world must see of what it is that brings light to their souls.

For us to criticize others religious beliefs, their leaders, does nothing to convince but rather further alienates the soul from the light.

Let us start at home, get our lives right with God before we take that walk into the world where we are going to be seen.

We need not carry a sign stating who or what we are religiously, because if we walk right, it will be seen as a reflection of something greater than what is in themselves and be drawn to it.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[seekdatruth]

The best way to win someone over is to demonstrate the love of Christ in our conversations, our thoughts and our walk.

If a good Mormon family and a good Catholic family lived side by side in a neighborhood, could we tell by observation which one is walking with God?

What if, the Catholic went over to the neighbors house and offered his services of friendship without regard to the neighbors beliefs, would that show something good?

What if, the situation was reversed?

The problem arises when one or the other imposes ones own conscience on the other as the true, right and correct way of worshiping God.

Now, if all that is said about JS is true, then let it be.

God knows their hearts and will direct them unto your path for observation and perhaps, based on your walk, they just might be persuaded to listen to you.

Mat 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

You are that city whose light can not be hid, and where the world must see of what it is that brings light to their souls.

For us to criticize others religious beliefs, their leaders, does nothing to convince but rather further alienates the soul from the light.

Let us start at home, get our lives right with God before we take that walk into the world where we are going to be seen.

We need not carry a sign stating who or what we are religiously, because if we walk right, it will be seen as a reflection of something greater than what is in themselves and be drawn to it.

Peace>>>AJ

Funny you should say that…
There must be a difference between CA LDS and AZ LDS.
I like what you said though. Is it what happens on either side? Not that I’ve seen.

 

[dianaiad]

Oh, how fun!
One verse:
Galations 1:8-9 “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach [to you] a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed! [anethema]”

Ah, but our claim is that we are NOT ‘teaching another gospel than the one that we have preached to you,’ but rather that we are the ones who are teaching that gospel; everybody ELSE has it wrong. So this verse is not proof that we are wrong; first you have to prove that we are indeed teaching a gospel that is different from that which Christ and His apostles taught.

How about another:
2 Corinthians 11:12-15 “And what I do I will continue to do, in order to end this pretext of those who seek a pretext for being regarded as we are in the mission of which they boast. For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, who masquerade as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light. So it is not stranger that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.”

which is probably why God told Joseph, in that famous vision, that all the creeds were false and the ministers thereof corrupt…

Again, this in and of itself is not proof that Mormonism is false; you STILL have to prove that we are teaching falsehoods.

Just for fun:
1 Tim 3:14-15: “I am writing you about these matters, although I hope to visit you soon.
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.”

Luke 6:46-49
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command?
I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts on them.That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built. But the one who listens and does not act is like a person who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed.”

so…if God and His Son appear to you and tell you that there was an apostasy and you have been chosen to help restore the gospel to the earth in its fullness, you should, y’know, DO that?

Luke 14:26-31
“If any one comes to me without hating his father 7 and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
Which of you wishing to construct a tower does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if there is enough for its completion?
Otherwise, after laying the foundation and finding himself unable to finish the work the onlookers should laugh at him
and say, 'This one began to build but did not have the resources to finish.’”

And this means…what? If there is anything that everybody has to agree on with Mormons it is that the early converts did a whole lot of ‘leaving’ of their old cultures and beliefs to follow the truth as they saw it.

Of course, you will have your own interpretation of these passages.

yep…and they apply to anybody who believes differently than you do, sir. do you know how many times those verses have been flashed at me, and by people who are further apart from each other in terms of doctrine than we are from Catholicism–or indeed anybody?

Doesn’t leave me impressed, that’s certain.

I post these in response to your Scripture drive-by, which explains one of the reasons for Christ, and suggests that the Church that he founded was a rectification of that condition and a beacon to the lost. Do you really think he’d come and do all that only to let it be lost again (in a “great apostasy”)?

Well, yeah, since that’s exactly what He said WOULD happen.

That’s what really gets me. Not so much that Mormons are deceived by the testimony of a questionable man who took direction to a different gospel from angels and himself masqueraded as an apostle–for this is deception.

But to actually posit a “great apostasy” in light of all of Christ’s promises, his Divine Institution of the Church, and what he says about wise men and foolish men in parables…! For make no mistake, to suggest a “great apostasy” is to call Jesus himself a liar, an oathbreaker, to proclaim the death of his Body, and, in light of those last two passages alone, a fool and a hypocrite. Frankly, it’s insulting blasphemy.

I ‘posit’ a great apostasy because Christ Himself said it would happen, and warned against it. Indeed, many of the verses you show me indicate that one was expected; why else would false teachers arise?

Why else would Paul be so adamant that Christ would not come again until after that ‘falling away first’ happened? (Thess. 2: 3)

In fact, every single letter written in the NT was written to combat apostasy that was already occurring

 

[truthsilence]

Another way to look at this ‘falling away’ is that possibly the Church began to break apart - first East/West but more particularly, (especially where people began to self interpret and teach so many erroneous doctrines), at the reformation, and what has stemmed from that point.

All I can tell you is that I feel blessed beyond words to have been led by the Spirit to the Catholic Church. Especially grateful her Sacraments, and most importantly the Holy Eucharist.

God bless,
Tami

 

[mfbukowski]

Do any mormons care to respond to this? Have any mormons taken God seriouse enough to even investigate this? This is the one thing that is not matter of opinion and does not have any gray areas. It is proof atleast with this that Joseph Smith lied. Do any of you even know about this?

Of course. I have been LDS for 30 years. It has been the subject of books and books discussion and threads. The papyri are not “translations”. They were catalysts for revelations. Their literal contents are directly relevant to our temple ceremonies which we don’t discuss. That is why we don’t go around attacking back on this distortion. If you become a member of our church and attend the temple, you will see what the papyri literally point to.

If you are really interested, this will get you started:
en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham_papyri

This is also an excellent site for anyone interested in the controversial distortions that people make about Mormonism.

I just happend by this thread and don’t really have time to discuss this further at this time, but go ahead and use that site all you like obviously.

 

[mfbukowski]

Ah Hi Dianaiad – I didn’t see that you were here!

 

[1holycatholic]

Anyone who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ are generally Christian. Of course, Mormons sort of have… “interesting” views of Him, but, technically, they still believe in Him… in a way.

I really hope I’m not offending anyone. If I did, I apologize very much.

Ironically Yours.

There is no generally Christian.

Those who are validly baptised are Christian. There are schismatic Christians, heretical Christians, and apostate Christians. Mormons are none of these things. Mormons do not have valid baptism. Mormons are not Christian.

 

[Arandur]

Dianaiad, I’ll get to your last responses. Do you have something on my first post, yet?

I’m not sure I’ve posted them here…have you seen my long list of Christ’s promises and parables that prove that a Great Apostasy could not have occurred without Christ being a fool, an oathbreaker, and a faithless leader who abandons his flock? I’d be interested to get your response, so I may have to repost here sometime this weekend.

As to proving claims, first and foremost, the burden of proof lies on any non-Catholic religion to prove its origins AND deal satisfactorily with the Catholic claims, because the Catholic Church is the only Church that claims and can trace clear historicity back to Christ himself in 33 A.D., with no other singular human leader or “restoring” intermediary through whom the whole religion rests.

I haven’t been much impressed with the Great Apostasy arguments I’ve seen over the years; hopefully you won’t point me to passages that never, ever, speak of total apostasies, but rather explicitly refer to the faithful persistence of the Church and its members in spite of them. And to possibly save a little more time, I should forestall any argument that evidence of heresies/apostasies at all (partial, even numerous ones) doesn’t help at all, for the LDS church quickly splintered into various Smithian branches, as well, and has proportionally enjoyed far less success than the early Church did, gifted as it was with the mission and guidance of the Holy Spirit (and as Smithian religions are not).

I hope you don’t consider my tone harsh. I believe we can both speak with bluntness and conviction while still being quite respectful of each other. Some ideas, actions, and beliefs don’t deserve much respect, but people always do.

 

[dianaiad]

Ah Hi Dianaiad – I didn’t see that you were here!

Ah, c’mon, they’re messin with Mormons–with a thread title like that, you know I’d be here! (grin)

It’s true, I’m here more in play than spirit, but hey…

 

[mfbukowski]

Ah, c’mon, they’re messin with Mormons–with a thread title like that, you know I’d be here! (grin)

It’s true, I’m here more in play than spirit, but hey…

Well I can relate but there are only so many dragons— I mean salamanders— to slay in a day.

Stomping those little boogers can tire you out!