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mfbukowski
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Show me evidence that anyone cares about being “mainstream” or that Mormonism has been trying to appear mainstream.
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Arandur
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That doesn’t sound consistent with your original attack on the Magisterium (that it could just do whatever it wanted). That aside, I agree with you: one of us is wrong.
Aside from all the doctrine-by-doctrine proofs, Catholics believe Smith was wrong because he came along and declared things that were different, had never been seen before, contradicted the Church that had been around since Christ, had no basis in history, and founded a religion based upon his ideas. Like any other cult of personality, from Arian, Nestorius, and Marcion to Luther, Calvin, and Warren.
On what basis do you declare the Catholic Church wrong, if not by the “testimony” of one man?
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Arandur
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If that’s been your experience, I’m sorry. Many people here will help you. As a generalization, I am certain that is incorrect. Many people try to convert you, do they not? And aside from that, Catholics and even some Protestants have official Catechisms that are publicly available (Mormons do not have a codified, officialized set of teaching documents that I have seen) that you can consult to find out what we believe and even some of the reasons why. Pretty easy.
Where is all the real persecution coming from this alleged malice? Seems to me the common experience is that Mormons are the ones good at shunning and persecuting. We aren’t the ones who have scripturalized the accusation that all other churches are the “Great and Abominable Church of Satan.” Look no further than your own church for the “hate speech” and action.
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mfbukowski
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Answer how an unchangeable God can inteact with his creations without being changed. When God hears your prayers, does he respond? Then he is changed.
Your logical impossibility existed only in Aquinas mind. The argument is circular. The premise is included in the conclusion.
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mfbukowski
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Oh yes- I forgot the last sentence. God IS atemporal. And eternal.
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Arandur
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You’re trying to apply something akin to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle to God. The particles to which that principle is applied, however, exist in time. If God can exist outside of time, then the whole language of “change” is irrelevant, simply does not apply. Are you trying to limit God by saying that He must be finite and exist in time?
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mfbukowski
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So are Mormons just stupid that they believe these two apparantly conflicting (to you) doctrines?
Or could they possibly have an understanding that you apparantly do not have which resolves what you see as a conflict?
I guess they must just be stupid, right?
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Arandur
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Joseph Smith’s Sermon on the Plurality of Gods
Printed in History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473-479.
Meeting in the Grove, east of the Temple, June 16, 1844.
President Joseph Smith read the 3rd chapter of Revelation, and took for his text 1st chapter, 6th verse—"And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father: to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
It is altogether correct in the translation. Now, you know that of late some malicious and corrupt men have sprung up and apostatized from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and they declare that the Prophet believes in a plurality of Gods, and, lo and behold! we have discovered a very great secret, they cry—“The Prophet says there are many Gods, and this proves that he has fallen.”
It has been my intention for a long time to take up this subject and lay it clearly before the people, and show what my faith is in relation to this interesting matter. I have contemplated the saying of Jesus (Luke 17th chapter, 26th verse)—“And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man.” And if it does rain, I’ll preach this doctrine, for the truth shall be preached.
I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years.
I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it!
… (cropped for space)
Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many. I want to set it forth in a plain and simple manner; but to us there is but one God—that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all. But if Joseph Smith says there are Gods many and Lords many, they cry, “Away with him! Crucify him! crucify him!”
Mankind verily say that the scriptures are with them. Search the scriptures, for they testify of things that these apostates would gravely pronounce blasphemy. Paul, if Joseph Smith is a blasphemer. you are. I say there are Gods many and Lords many, but to us only one, and we are to be in subjection to that one, and no man can limit the bounds or the eternal existence of eternal time. Hath he beheld the eternal world, and is he authorized to say that there is only one God? He makes himself a fool if he thinks or says so, and there is an end of his career or progress in knowledge. He cannot obtain all knowledge, for he has sealed up the gate to it.
… (space)
The head God organized the heavens and the earth. I defy all the world to refute me. In the beginning the heads of the Gods organized the heavens and the earth. Now the learned priests and the people rage, and the heathen imagine a vain thing. If we pursue the Hebrew text further, it reads, “Berosheit baurau Eloheim ait aashamayeen vehau auraits”—“The head one of the Gods said. Let us make a man in our own image.”
… (space)
If Abraham reasoned thus—If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it.
… (space)
As the Father had done before. He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before. He did as He was sent, to lay down His life and take it up again; and then was committed unto Him the keys, &c. I know it is good reasoning.
… (space)
The old Catholic church traditions are worth more than all you have said. Here is a principle of logic that most men have no more sense than to adopt. I will illustrate it by an old apple tree. Here jumps off a branch and says, I am the true tree, and you are corrupt. If the whole tree is corrupt, are not its branches corrupt? If the Catholic religion is a false religion, how can any true religion come out of it? If the Catholic church is bad, how can any good thing come out of it! The character of the old churches have always been slandered by all apostates since the world began.
I testify again, as the Lord lives, God never will acknowledge any traitors or apostates. Any man who will betray the Catholics will betray you; and if he will betray me, he will betray you. All men are liars who say they are of the true Church without the revelations of Jesus Christ and the Priesthood of Melchisedek, which is after the order of the Son of God.
It is in the order of heavenly things that God should always send a new dispensation into the world when men have apostatized from the truth and lost the priesthood; but when men come out and build upon other men’s foundations, they do it on their own responsibility, without: authority from God; and when the floods come and the winds blow, their foundations will be found to be sand, and their whole fabric will crumble to dust.
Did I build on any other man’s foundation? I have got all the truth which the Christian world possessed, and an independent revelation in the bargain, and God will bear me off triumphant. I will drop this subject…
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Arandur
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Interesting stuff about the Catholic Church at the end of that. He seems almost sympathetic.
This in particular is interesting:
“The character of the old churches have always been slandered by all apostates since the world began.”
Interesting, since it applies to what he is doing as well.
This in particular is interesting:
“The character of the old churches have always been slandered by all apostates since the world began.”
Interesting, since it applies to what he is doing as well.
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mfbukowski
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Do you really believe we are robots or something? I stopped believing in the Catholic church 20 years before I ever heard of Joseph Smith. The doctrine makes no sense. That is why I stopped believing. The doctrine changes. The magesterium can do whatever it wants. Vatican 2 is what really did me in. That started the questions. Now there was an inspired move for you. Started the whole Traditional movement. Great move, magesterium.
Mary assumed into heaven? Why? Where is that in the bible?
Bread into flesh and blood? Give me a break. How can you believe that? It’s totally preposterous.
Immaculate Conception? How is that biblical? Why is it even necessary? How is the assumption biblical?
How do people get prayed out of purgatory when they did nothing to deserve it? You have this whole “treasury of merit” idea that really makes no sense to me whatsoever. It’s like cash in the bank that gets loaned out I guess. Makes God look like a bean counter. “Well, you get 2 grace credits for that prayer, minus one for that venial sin, leaves you up one grace credit.-- Let’s give it to Aunt Tessie in purgatory.”
And how do you “offer up” bad things that happen for someone else?
How can Mary and Jesus have a body but God does not? Why do you have a problem with that?
You can’t tell me what happens to babies who are not baptized or many other doctrines. Everything is a “mystery”
What is an indulgence and where is the bank where all that extra merit is kept?
This stuff is just not believable
And none of it was “around since Christ”. Show me one biblical evidence for any of it.
No, I didn’t need Joseph at all to know that the Catholics were wrong. It’s clear on its face. Prima facie.
And then the fruits that are in the news that I will not go into. The lack of priests too. Selling off assets for obvious reasons, leaving parishoners in the lurch.
Nope, didn’t need Joseph at all.
You asked.
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mfbukowski
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The particles do, but the logical principle is not. I am not saying there is a physical change in God’s particles. And yes, the concept is akin to the Heisenberg principle. If God can respond to prayer, he is changing. Or are you saying he does not respond? Or cannot?
Why does he need us anyway? And why does he limit our possible glory?
Wouldn’t he want his children to have all He has?
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mfbukowski
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So answer my earlier question. Are Mormons just plain stupid to not see these conflicts, or is there another explanation? What do you honestly think? Do you think that I was not aware of those quotes, or that I was lying? Or just stupid? Which is it? And all those professors at BYU are intentionally misleading people, or do you think there is something here you are not understanding?
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RebeccaJ
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You have some fine self-persecution there that you are somehow attributing to me.
Yes bukowski, I believe that every Mormon that has, does or will ever live is hopelessly bereft of intelligence.
Feel better? Validated maybe?
Sometimes you are such a freaking drama queen.
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mfbukowski
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Well that may be true, but it isn’t what I am saying hereYou have some fine self-persecution there that you are somehow attributing to me.
Yes bukowski, I believe that every Mormon that has, does or will ever live is hopelessly bereft of intelligence.
Feel better? Validated maybe?
Sometimes you are such a freaking drama queen.
No, you are misinterpreting what I am saying. I was being sarcastic.
The attitude of the posters here is “ha ha - you believe in the plurality of gods, so you are not Christian” Na na na na!
All I am saying is the picture is much more complex than this simpleminded approach. Yet no one will take a moment to listen to what we actually do believe or why we believe it. Two apparantly opposing postions have been posted – so is there a resolution that no one understands or are we just dumb?
The attitude is that we are just dumb-- and no one wants to hear the resolution. I don’t really care about that. But who would be so dumb as to ask a question and not want a reply?
I want to know about Catholicism so that I can decide if it is true or so I can prove it false. If I don’t understand Catholicism, I will never know if there was something valuable that I missed.
But no one here really wants to know. So that is what makes no sense. Anyway, it’s late I am off to bed
If you don’t want to hear the answer, don’t ask the question.
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RebeccaJ
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I think you forget, in my case, that I know how Mormonism attempts to reconcile this. You twist what scriptural passages say to align to Joseph Smith’s later wanderings.Well that may be true, but it isn’t what I am saying here
No, you are misinterpreting what I am saying. I was being sarcastic.
The attitude of the posters here is “ha ha - you believe in the plurality of gods, so you are not Christian” Na na na na!
All I am saying is the picture is much more complex than this simpleminded approach. Yet no one will take a moment to listen to what we actually do believe or why we believe it. Two apparantly opposing postions have been posted – so is there a resolution that no one understands or are we just dumb?
You define God the Father as the One God that you should worship. And all other gods as subordinate to the Father. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in purpose only.
This is not a Christian belief. Not even a Christian thought.
It is not about nananana, it is about a correct understanding of Who you are worshipping.
Christians do not worship the top God in a pyramid of gods.
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dianaiad
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(snort)
I think that any look at my very short…but very busy…history here will disprove that one.
One woman’s experience wouldn’t be evidence enough, this is true. However, please look at this forum. Go look at any usenet forum…or indeed any forum in which Mormons appear. Take samples of posts…whatever you need to do. You will see that I am correct about this.
Oh, really?
Please show me the Mormons picketing Catholic meetings and cathedrals. Please show me the pamphlets published by the LDS church that compares Mormonism to any other faith to the detriment of that other faith. In fact, please show me such pamphlets that compare belief systems at all. please show me the LDS equivalent if the 'Mormon Research Ministry," that targets Catholicism or Lutheranism or the Baptists or Presbyterianism.
Please, my friend, show me ANY quote from any LDS source from within the last CENTURY that even says what you claim for us.
In the meantime, I can show you literally hundreds of such publications from almost every other religion that specifically attacks Mormons–dozens of them published every day, every week. Right now.
I, personally, have had rocks thrown at me. I had a rather nasty pamphlet tucked under my windshield wiper at a funeral telling me that the deceased was in hell and I would soon follow if I didn’t leave the devil Mormon church. It was my husband’s funeral.
EVERY time I go to Temple Square in Salt Lake City, I have to run a gauntlet of anti-Mormon demonstrators with signs, loud speakers…some wearing our Temple garments outside their clothing or waving them in the air. Every single time.
My sister is a Temple worker…she has learned to put her Temple clothing in a backpack and look like a tourist when she goes to SLC, because if she walks into Temple Square carrying the overnight case she takes to the Logan Temple, it is almost certain that someone will attempt to grab it from her, or if not that, they will attempt to block her entrance and shout at her or mock her; spit at her or condemn her to hellfire and damnation.
The church finally had to petition the city to make a special place for protesters so that they would have to stay away from the Temple Square gates, only to be criticized for interfering with the protester’s freedom of speech.
But oh, no, there’s no malice out there.
Not a bit.
However, have it your way. There’s no malice out there. By the same token, all those anti-Catholic sites, like Jack Chick’s perhaps? No malice against the Catholics there, is there?
Sometimes I wonder if we are all in parallel universes.
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RebeccaJ
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Diana, I could very well give you a list of anti-Catholic literature that comes out of your church. Published in your Ensign. Or from LDS publishers and apologetics groups, such as FAIR. All recent.
But what’s the point? Really? Why in every other post I read of yours are you tooting the same horn? Do you love to feel the way you must feel to steep yourself in this sort of reminiscing?
I am beginning to wonder if you haven’t grown bigoted against everyone who isn’t Mormon.
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1holycatholic
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Is it possible to search for posts by Mormons on CAF?
You’ve consistently failed to answer:
- The problem of the Mormon teaching of the existence of Gods and the logical impossibility of the existence of more or less than one God.
- The problem of the Mormon teaching of the eternal progression in light of the perfection and necessary atemporality of God.
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MelanieAnne
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Just as an example, some Mormons made attempts to meet with the Pope on his most recent visit. This was seen as yet another effort of Mormons to be thought of as “regular Christians just like everyone else”.
In the past, Mormons went to each least as a great length to separate themselves and distinguish themselves from other faiths.
If you’re looking for some kind of citation, I don’t have those, I’m not an internet citation collector. I’ve read about it, seen it on TV, etc. If you cannot tell that the way that Mormons interact with the rest of the Christian community at large has changed over the past several decades then you’ve been asleep at the switch.
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MelanieAnne
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Not everything written in the world is written to persecute. Some is just factual information. Not everything is about YOU.
I wrote, in its context “Why so many Mormons blur the distinction between their view of the nature of the Godhead and that of other faiths is unknown. Perhaps it is simple ignorance, Perhaps it is deliberate deception. Perhaps it is something else. My experience with most Mormons (none of whom post to this forum) is that they know little or nothing of other faiths and have little if any curiosity about them. They may be unaware of the vast differences between Mormonism and mainstream Christian faiths. If they are not aware of the differences they certainly would be incapable of articulating them. Nevertheless huge differences are there.”
In regards to your need to understand what that portion means “My experience with most Mormons (none of whom post to this forum)” here is some clarification ~
I know a lot of Mormons. I have friends going back over 20 years, and some going back as long as 40 years, that are Mormon. So far as I known, none of them post to this forum so I cannot introduce you to any of them.
I’ve had lots of talks with them, gone to all sorts of meetings and classes and there have been plenty of attempts to get me to join them. I have worked with them on community projects. Without going into exhaustive detail, it is fair to say that I have had a lot of experience with Mormons, yet I am not a member of their faith.
My experience with Mormons is that they know little or nothing of other faiths and usually have no curiosity about other faiths. This is the experience I have had with Mormons I know personally. I have, in other threads, given examples of this. For example, the Mormons I know believe, and this is a universal with that group so far as I can find, that “Orthodox” pertains to a segment of the Jewish faith. They appear to be unaware of the existence of Orthodox Christians or, indeed to have any idea of what the term “orthodox” means. Another example ~ a mature Mormon once told me, very seriously (actually, he demonstrated) that to “genuflect” was to make the sign of the Cross. When I told him it was something different (and demonstrated) and referred him to his dictionary, he was amazed.
Does my experience over several decades with an array of different Mormons give me some sort of scientifically significant statistical sample? No it doesn’t. Yet I do find it remarkable that Mormons, at least the ones I’ve run into, know little or nothing about any other faith. They don’t have to ask other people to learn (and go through the little drama you wrote out.) They can READ and learn a lot.
There are some elements of Christianity in Mormonism. But Mormons are not Christian in the same sense as those who hold the Trinitarian view of the Godhead. If your Missionaries are not aware of, or are unable to distinguish, the differences, I submit that there are some in the Mormon hierarchy who can. And yet Missionaries come into the homes of potential converts exploiting their ignorance and confusion. That is, in my opinion, unconscionable. And I submit it may be deliberate.
One of your articles of faith is being honest. That sort of deception is dishonest. Not a great way to start out if the intent is supposedly to bring someone to God.
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