Is mormonism Christian?

[ThurifAcolyte]

(i) Of course, until the First Council of Nicaea, which was not until 325 A.D., the doctrine of the Trinity (same in substance) did not exist. So, were all of the “Christians” before 325 A.D. not really Christian because they never even heard of the Trinity? I know that someone will post that the First Council of Nicaea simply “recognized” what had “always” been the “truth”. However, my question is whether “Christians” who had never even heard of, much less believed in, the Trinity for more than three centuries were not really Christians.

Feel free to start a new thread to discuss this if you desire. We of course do not believe that the Trinity doctrine did not exist until the Ecumenical Council of Nicaea.

(ii) Joseph recorded (if you want to say “fabricated”, because you believe Joseph was a fraud, go right ahead), that the Lord told him that, as to all of the Churches of his day, “all their creeds were an abomination in his sight.” Why was that? There were no prophets, and no revelations, at Nicaea or any of the other many early church councils, and the recorders of those councils never claimed that there were. The doctrine of the Trinity was established (I will not say “fabricated”) based upon argument, majority vote and, crucially, pressure from the Roman emperor to dispose of a politically dangerous controversy (the Arians versus the Alexandrians), which the emperor believed trivially abstract, in order to increase the stability of the Roman Empire. As Mormons say, those who subscribe to the Nicene Creed put their faith in the words of men rather than the Word of God. Wikipedia has a fairly good article about the First Council of Nicaea. For a really rigorous scholarly, but readable, account of how Nicaea and the other early church councils really worked (including politics, self-interest, violence, etc.) read Yale Professor Ramsay MacMullen’s book “Voting About God: In the Early Church Councils” (Yale U. Press. 2006).

Again, feel free to start a new thread to discuss these claims. Why do Councils have to have prophets? Was there prophecy happening in Acts 15? Again, we do not put our faith in the Nicene Creed. The Nicene Creed is a definition of our faith. We believe that the Trinity is Biblical (and taught and believed in by Christians prior to the Council of Nicaea), as you believe your belief is Biblical.

 

[ThurifAcolyte]

Of course it is.

All of you bigoted people who have a problem with my church for whatever reason – and yet you will say Catholics and Protestants are Christian.

You base your conclusion that we “are not Christian” on the same recycled false garbage that continues to get spread about.

Yes the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is. Why not ask me or someone you know who is a member instead of buying into the recycled false garbage.

I’m sorry Thecourt, we won’t forget that you claimed that the Catholic Church denied that it was the true Church of Jesus Christ in Vatican II documents, and failed to show us where in the documents it said that. We asked you something, and you did not show us. Then you said that it was a “lie” and “garbage” that we say that Mormons believe that you can become gods, and that you “only believe that you become like God, not gods”. I personally would ask dianaiad or parkerd about the LDS faith before asking you.

 

[Publisher]

Sorry, but that’s entirely incorrect.

Please read and do your research. There are a vast amount of sites that will show you why mormons are not “Christians”. Here is one, for example.

Or…HERE (as quoted from below)

**"Richard John Neuhaus, a leading Roman Catholic theologian, helpfully reminds us that “Christian” is a word that “is not honorific but descriptive.” Christians do respect the Mormon affirmation of the family and the zeal of Mormon youth in their own missionary work. Christians must affirm religious liberty and the right of Mormons to practice and share their faith.

Nevertheless, Mormonism is not Christianity by definition or description".**

A good book also is “How Wide the Divide”…it contrasts “Evangelical” and “Mormon” beliefs…and helps dispell some misconceptions about Mormon belief…written by both an Evangelical on one side and a Mormon on the other…good read.

 

[gearhead]

–The follow a false prophet’s vision of “Christ”. They are not Christian because of that fact.

They follow a vision of Christ. They are Christian because of that fact.

They are in a very controlled cult, is all.

Do you actually know any Mormons? That’s not borne out by my experience with any that I know.

Here is one list of cult warning signs. The Catholic Church and the LDS Church show these signs in equal measure (i.e. some fit, but most do not).

They do not follow Christian Doctrine.

In your view, is ANY non-Catholic denomination “Christian”?

 

[StLawrenceFan]

Yes the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is. Why not ask me or someone you know who is a member instead of buying into the recycled false garbage.

OK, I’ll play, but I’ll need you to notate the corrected beliefs below if you feel any of these following mormons beliefs are incorrect.​

• God was once a man like us.
• God has a tangible body of flesh and bone.
• God lives on a planet near the star Kolob.
• God (“Heavenly Father”) has at least one wife, our “Mother in Heaven,” but she is so holy that we are not to discuss her nor pray to her.
• Jesus was married.
• We can become like God and rule over our own universe.
• There are many gods, ruling over their own worlds.
• Jesus and Satan (“Lucifer”) are brothers, and they are our brothers - we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father
• Jesus Christ was conceived by God the Father by having sex with Mary, who was temporarily his wife.
• We should not pray to Jesus, nor try to feel a personal relationship with him.
• The “Lord” (“Jehovah”) in the Old Testament is the being named Jesus in the New Testament, but different from “God the Father” (“Elohim”).
• In the highest degree of the celestial kingdom some men will have more than one wife.
• Before coming to this earth we lived as spirits in a “pre-existence”, during which we were tested; our position in this life (whether born to Mormons or savages, or in America or Africa) is our reward or punishment for our obedience in that life.
• Dark skin is a curse from God, the result of our sin, or the sin of our ancestors. If sufficiently righteous, a dark-skinned person will become light-skinned.
• The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. All humanity before the Great Flood lived in the western hemisphere. The Ark transported Noah and the other survivors to the eastern hemisphere.
• The sun receives its light from the star Kolob.

 

[StLawrenceFan]

They follow a vision of Christ. They are Christian because of that fact.

—Sure about that? Even if the “Christ” they follow is not the same Christ of the Bible?
How can that be?

Do you actually know any Mormons? That’s not borne out by my experience with any that I know.

–Oh yes, Been to SLC many times. All the mormon folk I’ve met have been very nice.

The Catholic Church and the LDS Church show these signs in equal measure (i.e. some fit, but most do not).

–LOL. There’s not even a glimmer of comparison between the Church that God founded and the one Joe Smith dreamed-up.

In your view, is ANY non-Catholic denomination “Christian”?

–Gee, my “view” is the same as any level-headed Christian. Any denomination that abides by Christian Doctrine is Christian; those who base their beliefs solely on the Holy Bible and no other religious-related books written by false prophets.

Mormons are not a Christian denomination; mormons are not Christian in the slightest.
But, dang, they’ve fooled a good number of folks.

 

[twopekinguys]

Didn’t Mormons deny being Christian early on in their formative years, then change track?

 

[gearhead]

OK, I’ll play, but I’ll need you to notate the corrected beliefs below if you feel any of these following mormons beliefs are incorrect.​

• God was once a man like us.
• God has a tangible body of flesh and bone.

Aren’t these Catholic beliefs as well?

• Jesus was married.

Is it Catholic doctrine that he wasn’t?

• The “Lord” (“Jehovah”) in the Old Testament is the being named Jesus in the New Testament, but different from “God the Father” (“Elohim”).

Is this inconsistent with Catholic doctrine?

• Dark skin is a curse from God, the result of our sin, or the sin of our ancestors. If sufficiently righteous, a dark-skinned person will become light-skinned.

.
At times, the idea that dark skin was a curse from God has been a common belief in other Christian groups. Google the “curse of Ham” if you’re curious.

• The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. All humanity before the Great Flood lived in the western hemisphere. The Ark transported Noah and the other survivors to the eastern hemisphere.

Is this inconsistent with Catholic doctrine? Does the Church make any authoritative statements about where Eden was or where Noah lived before the flood?

The last bit, while probably not doctrine, is widely held by Catholics: the most common resting place claimed for the Ark is Mount Ararat, which is in the Eastern hemisphere.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Aren’t these Catholic beliefs as well?

Is it Catholic doctrine that he wasn’t?

Is this inconsistent with Catholic doctrine?

.
At times, the idea that dark skin was a curse from God has been a common belief in other Christian groups. Google the “curse of Ham” if you’re curious.

Is this inconsistent with Catholic doctrine? Does the Church make any authoritative statements about where Eden was or where Noah lived before the flood?

The last bit, while probably not doctrine, is widely held by Catholics: the most common resting place claimed for the Ark is Mount Ararat, which is in the Eastern hemisphere.

Jesus was not married, and the Garden of Eden was in present day Iraq. You are correct about the curse - but I think it was the mark of Cain after he slew Abel, some people thought the mark that God put on him was dark skin, but it never says that in the Bible. Jesus became incarnate, that means he is God, but assumed a human body and lived as a man.

 

[Bluegoat]

Aren’t these Catholic beliefs as well?

Is it Catholic doctrine that he wasn’t?

Is this inconsistent with Catholic doctrine?

.
At times, the idea that dark skin was a curse from God has been a common belief in other Christian groups. Google the “curse of Ham” if you’re curious.

Is this inconsistent with Catholic doctrine? Does the Church make any authoritative statements about where Eden was or where Noah lived before the flood?

The last bit, while probably not doctrine, is widely held by Catholics: the most common resting place claimed for the Ark is Mount Ararat, which is in the Eastern hemisphere.

I don’t think you are being fair. All of these things are understood quite differently than in Mormonism even where the language seems superficially similar. Catholicism, and mainstream Christianity, are quite clear that Jesus wasn’t married. The dark skin thing has been a belief of some Catholics at some times, but never doctrine (though I have a feelings it is not accepted within Mormonism now either?)

I don’t think there are any authoritative statements about where Eden was - I suspect that is very much deliberate. Of course some have speculated.

 

[ThurifAcolyte]

Jesus was not married, and the Garden of Eden was in present day Iraq. You are correct about the curse - but I think it was the mark of Cain after he slew Abel, some people thought the mark that God put on him was dark skin, but it never says that in the Bible. Jesus became incarnate, that means he is God, but assumed a human body and lived as a man.

And to further clarify, it is not Catholic doctrine that the Father has a resurrected body of flesh and bones, or that He was once a man. We do believe that Jesus Christ Incarnated, and that He was bodily resurrected and still has the same body. In contrast, Mormons do believe that God the Father has a [resurrected] body of flesh and bones, and that He was once a man, sometimes compared to Jesus Christ’s incarnation.

 

[StLawrenceFan]

Aren’t these Catholic beliefs as well?

Not in the slightest. That’s a list of items that mormons believe in. They are not Christian beliefs, in the slightest.

And it’s sad and obvious that you don’t want to state any facts.

 

[dianaiad]

what is the definition of CHRISTIAN?

To me it would be a person or group of people who believe in Jesus Christ.

Since when does Christian mean Trinitarian?

Careful there, Christine. You are about to have a wall of bricks fall on you…

 

[dianaiad]

That’s the rub for me as well. I don’t see that it is conducive for us to point the finger at Mormons and say “You’re not really Christian, even though you say you are.” I wouldn’t list them as just another denomination alongside Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans, etc., but neither would I go out of my way to say “You’re not Christian.” I think Edwin brings up some great points in that regard.

I would rather take the time to explain why the Mormon concept of Jesus is inaccurate rather than simply say they’re not Christian. I have no problem acquiescing to their request to be considered “Christian” if it means they’ll take seriously what I say rather than dismiss me out of hand.

Goodness; yet another reasonable person posting here.

Someone who understands that nobody ever changed religions as a result of having his own sufficiently insulted. Be careful, though…such a stance is not popular.

 

[dianaiad]

wait, Mormons deny the bodily resurrection of Christ?

Who said that?

I missed that one…

Diana, who is rather enjoying this particular thread…

 

[dianaiad]

I pretty much think this is right on.

Mormons think it is important to follow Christ. They have some odd ideas about what that means, but the fact they have got to that point is important. What’s left is to have them figure out what that might really mean. It seems to me often that those who insist they aren’t Christians are actually trying to get them to deny Christ altogether, to prove they aren’t really Christians. I think that would be very wrong.

That being said, compared to “regular” Christianity, I think Mormonism is actually more different than Judaism is from Christianity. It seems to me that is essentially materialist, so it is actually quite different from even Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Platonism… almost pre-Socratic in a way.

(perk)

How so? THIS could be an interesting conversation!!

 

[dianaiad]

Are Mormons “Christians”? I assume that there have been many threads here at CAF which address this question. There certainly have been threads with many posts which address this question.

“Christian” is a word. Like other words, it is assumed by many to have “a”, as in a single, meaning. However, is that a useful assumption?

In addition to being a Mormon, I am also a lawyer.

I would call this 'cat amongst the pidgeons" time.

I do have one small reservation about the very last bit regarding other gods. I would say ‘other universes,’ not ‘other gods in this universe,’ but I think that’s probably a quibble.

 

[ThurifAcolyte]

Who said that?

I missed that one…

Diana, who is rather enjoying this particular thread…

I think it was in one of those lists of “what Mormons believe”. That was news to me, I must say, I’m sure it was news to you as well.

Edit: it’s actually in a link from the initial post.

Sorry StLawrenceFan, from what I’m aware of, Mormons definitely believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[Stephen168]

Didn’t Mormons deny being Christian early on in their formative years, then change track?

I think I’ve heard that, too. I know they have changed tack on the trinity in the last 35 years. Maybe one of the ex-mormons could fill us in.

 

[bluelake]

The only people who think Mormons are Christians are the Mormons.

Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, and others may bicker with Rome, but even Rome will differentiate between the aforementioned denominations and the Mormon ‘church,’ despite the fact that we are all outside of the Roman communion.

Nom,
Mormons deny the Triune God. They follow the teaching of Joseph Smith.
He wrote their doctrine. It has had several changes since then.
Joseph Smith died in a gun brawl . He also had several wives.
In the past having more than one wife was a big draw for men. I can’t imagine any woman wanting to belong to a polygamous church.

Lets pray for this organization.
bluelake