Is Morning the proper time for Mass/liturgy?

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Because while we commemorate the Last Supper in Liturgy, what we are really celebrating is Easter every Sunday, which happened very early on a Sunday

I think I missed where the time of the Resurrection is listed in the Scriptures.

 

[ProVobis]

There used to be an absolute rule (correct me if I’m wrong) that all masses, except the Easter Vigil and some others, had to be complete by 12 noon. I believe Pius XII removed that.

Probably about the time when the fast for communion was shortened from midnight to 3 hrs.

 

[TimothyH]

Because while we commemorate the Last Supper in Liturgy, what we are really celebrating is Easter every Sunday, which happened very early on a Sunday

This is a good point. The original question was provocative for me, and I mean that in a good way - thought provolking.

Your answer is good too, and closed the circle for me. Thanks.

Passion, death and ressurection are strict unity. Ressurection is what we take with us as we leave the Mass/Divine Liturgy - ressurection. I think some forget that. They focus on the sacrifice but forget the ressurection part.

I’m a little OT but just wanted to say thanks.

-Tim-

 

[Phemie]

Probably about the time when the fast for communion was shortened from midnight to 3 hrs.

In the very same document, in fact. Issued on the Feast of the Epiphany, 1953, Pope Pius XII’s Apostolic Constitution "CHRISTUS DOMINUS – Concerning the Discipline To Be Observed With Respect To The Eucharistic Fast" in Rule VI allowed evening Masses (not to be celebrated before 4 p.m.) on specific days.

 

[liturgyluver]

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned (as far as I can see) is Morning Prayer. I think it is a pity that Morning Prayer is hardly ever said in our churches. Westminster Cathedral has morning prayer every day, fully sung on a sunday, and with sung Benedictus and hymn during the week. It makes a very lovely start to the day.

 

[ZxM]

so if a mass saturday evening counts as sunday does that mean that a 6pm mass on sunday counts as monday instead of sunday, which would mean it doesnt meet the obligation?

 

[Phemie]

so if a mass saturday evening counts as sunday does that mean that a 6pm mass on sunday counts as monday instead of sunday, which would mean it doesnt meet the obligation?

No. Well, no it doesn’t mean that your Sunday obligation is not met.

Your obligation is met by any mass on the day or the evening before, so any Mass celebrated from ~4 p.m. Saturday to midnight on Sunday. IOW, you have 32 hours to meet your obligation.

What it does mean is that if Monday were a Holy Day of Obligation a 6 p.m. Mass on Sunday would meet THAT obligation if you had already satisfied your obligation for Sunday earlier in the day or on Saturday evening.

 

[PacoG]

so if a mass saturday evening counts as sunday does that mean that a 6pm mass on sunday counts as monday instead of sunday, which would mean it doesnt meet the obligation?

This has been discussed on another thread and has been discussed over and over again on this thread.

Sunday is a privileged day. Liturgically, it starts at sunset on Saturday and continues until midnight on Sunday. No other day has that privileged because no other day has obligatory Mass attendance.

 

[PacoG]

No. Well, no it doesn’t mean that your Sunday obligation is not met.

Your obligation is met by any mass on the day or the evening before, so any Mass celebrated from ~4 p.m. Saturday to midnight on Sunday. IOW, you have 32 hours to meet your obligation.

What it does mean is that if Monday were a Holy Day of Obligation a 6 p.m. Mass on Sunday would meet THAT obligation if you had already satisfied your obligation for Sunday earlier in the day or on Saturday evening.

A couple of years ago, December 8 fell on a Saturday. That year, we had to attend twice during the weekend to satisfy both obligations.

 

[Phemie]

A couple of years ago, December 8 fell on a Saturday. That year, we had to attend twice during the weekend to satisfy both obligations.

Yes, two obligations require attendance at two Masses. You could attend Mass Friday evening or anytime Saturday to meet your Dec. 8 obligation and then again anytime from Saturday evening to midnight on Sunday for your Sunday obligation. You don’t get a 2 for 1 deal with obligations. IOW, attending Mass at 8 p.m. Saturday doesn’t fulfill both the Dec. 8 + Sunday obligations, it fulfills one or the other.

 

[superamazingman]

Yes, two obligations require attendance at two Masses. You could attend Mass Friday evening or anytime Saturday to meet your Dec. 8 obligation and then again anytime from Saturday evening to midnight on Sunday for your Sunday obligation. You don’t get a 2 for 1 deal with obligations. IOW, attending Mass at 8 p.m. Saturday doesn’t fulfill both the Dec. 8 + Sunday obligations, it fulfills one or the other.

I agree with you, but do you have documentation for that? Someone just asked me this very question, and I’m looking for sources.

 

[FrDavid96]

I agree with you, but do you have documentation for that? Someone just asked me this very question, and I’m looking for sources.

What kind of “documentation” does a person need?

When someone has 2 obligations, both have to be fulfilled.

If I go into a restaurant and order a cheeseburger, I have an obligation to pay for a cheeseburger.

If I go into a restaurant and I order two cheeseburgers, I have an obligation to pay for two cheeseburgers. I can’t say to the management “prove to me that I owe you for two instead of just one because I want you to count the fact that I paid for the first one as payment for the second one as well.”

If there are two different liturgical days, and we are obligated to attend Mass on each of those two different days, then there are two obligations. It’s pretty straightforward. One obligation means one Mass. Two obligations means two Masses. Just because these two days happen by coincidence to be one after the other (like Sunday & Monday) doesn’t mean that two obligations are met by attending one Mass.

Note here, I’m not speaking about circumstances where one obligation is dispensed. That’s altogether different.

 

[ConstantineTG]

This is a good point. The original question was provocative for me, and I mean that in a good way - thought provolking.

Your answer is good too, and closed the circle for me. Thanks.

Passion, death and ressurection are strict unity. Ressurection is what we take with us as we leave the Mass/Divine Liturgy - ressurection. I think some forget that. They focus on the sacrifice but forget the ressurection part.

I’m a little OT but just wanted to say thanks.

-Tim-

Well, that won’t slip the minds of Eastern Christians, thats what all the standing up is for :thumbsup:

Yes, Sunday is significant because of the Resurrection. We are a new creation, the 8th Day. That is why even from the beginning of the Church, Sunday is called the Day of the Lord, because it is when the victory over sin and death is completed by the Resurrection. Christ’s death would be meaningless without the Resurrection, it would have been incomplete.

 

[dochawk]

Not necessarily. One of the Parishes in the Des Moines metro has a Sunday afternoon Mass dubbed “Last Chance Mass” for those who may have not been able to attend Mass at their home Parish. Several Parishes in the metro as well offers daily Mass once a week in the early evening for us working stiffs.

Before the shrine was built further south, the cathedral in Las Vegas had Mass on the hour in the church, and the half-hour in the hall.

Even this wasn’t enough, so there was a 2:30 p.m. Satueday afternoon to meet the obligation “for tourists only.”

The church that would become this cathedral was built by the casinos for a very early Sunday morning mass for workers coming off shot. Basically, they offered the Bishop, "if you will send a priest for a 4:30 (?) Mass, we’ll build the church.

And that is why there is a Roman Catholic casino on the Las Vegas Strip . . .

I included "liturgy’ in my questions because the Eastern churches call the Mass the “Divine Liturgy”

No, we most certainly do not. The Mass very specifically means the Eucharistic Liturgy of the west. I suppose that you could state that the Mass is the western Divine Liturgy, but I’m not certain that even that would be correct.

 

[ConstantineTG]

And that is why there is a Roman Catholic casino on the Las Vegas Strip . . .

Roman Catholic casino? Do you put an indulgence into a slot machine and if you hit the jackpot, you get 1,000,000 years worth of indulgences?

Sorry, I can’t resist

 

[MarkThompson]

There used to be an absolute rule (correct me if I’m wrong) that all masses, except the Easter Vigil and some others, had to be complete by 12 noon. I believe Pius XII removed that.

Actually, that was a rule that always had a lot of exceptions, and in some places never really took hold at all. There are a couple of very interesting short pieces on the question of the evening Mass in the 1911 volume of the American Ecclesiastical Review. If you want to learn something, read “A Plea for an Evening Mass” here, pp. 592-96; and then “The Custom of the Evening Mass in the Church” and “When Were Evening Masses Discontinued?” here, pp. 721-23.

 

[MarkThompson]

What kind of “documentation” does a person need?

When someone has 2 obligations, both have to be fulfilled.

Right, except that both can be fulfilled by the same Mass. See Canon 1248 §1. A person who assists at any Mass on the evening of the first of two consecutive feast days has assisted at a Mass on that feast day, and assisted at a Mass on the evening before the second of the feast days. Simple as that. Naturally you have no documentation, since the Church has never seen fit to increase people’s obligations in the way you propose.

Really, I think your mistake originates in the very idea of thinking about “two obligations.” A person no more has “two obligations” in such a case than she would have “four obligations” in the average month. Rather, she has one obligation, Canon 1247: “On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are obliged to participate in the Mass.” It does not say “in one Mass apiece.” This is why when Sunday and another day of obligation coincide the obligation requires assistance at only a single Mass, not at two. “Obligations” are not additive – three obligations, twenty obligations. If they were, then the obligation to attend on Sunday and the obligation to attend on, let’s say, Christmas (when it falls on a Sunday) would each equal one Mass, and so the total would add up to two Masses. “No twofers!,” one following your reasoning would exclaim. But as we all know, that’s not how it works – and this is not because we make one Mass “count for two” or because “one of the two obligations” is waived or suspended that year, but because there only is one obligation – Canon 1247 – that is relevant in the first place.

 

[FrDavid96]

Right, except that both can be fulfilled by the same Mass. See Canon 1248 §1. A person who assists at any Mass on the evening of the first of two consecutive feast days has assisted at a Mass on that feast day, and assisted at a Mass on the evening before the second of the feast days. Simple as that. Naturally you have no documentation, since the Church has never seen fit to increase people’s obligations in the way you propose.

Really, I think your mistake originates in the very idea of thinking about “two obligations.” A person no more has “two obligations” in such a case than she would have “four obligations” in the average month. Rather, she has one obligation, Canon 1247: “On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are obliged to participate in the Mass.” It does not say “in one Mass apiece.” This is why when Sunday and another day of obligation coincide the obligation requires assistance at only a single Mass, not at two. “Obligations” are not additive – three obligations, twenty obligations. If they were, then the obligation to attend on Sunday and the obligation to attend on, let’s say, Christmas (when it falls on a Sunday) would each equal one Mass, and so the total would add up to two Masses. “No twofers!,” one following your reasoning would exclaim. But as we all know, that’s not how it works – and this is not because we make one Mass “count for two” or because “one of the two obligations” is waived or suspended that year, but because there only is one obligation – Canon 1247 – that is relevant in the first place.

Mark,

I usually agree with you, but you’re way off base here.

For starters, I certainly can provide documentation to support what I say. That documentation is the Universal Norms on the Liturgical Year and the Calendar, which is printed on the opening pages of the Roman Missal.

On the other hand, you are unable to provide anything supporting what you say because it’s not in harmony with the Church’s norms on the calendar.

When there are 2 Holy Days of Obligation, there are 2 obligations. It’s simple math

You are confusing what happens when 2 liturgical days fall on the same calendar day with what happens when 2 liturgical days happen one-after-the-other.

Unless the Holy Day is moved or transferred or dispensed, when that day happens to fall on a Saturday or a Monday, a Catholic has 2 obligations: one for Sunday and one for the Holy Day. One plus one equals two. I’m sorry, but you cannot show how one plus one equals one.

What is confusing you is that you are misunderstanding what happens when 2 days occur next to each other. You are trying to apply the principle of the calendar when 2 commemorations happen on the same day and apply it to when they happen on 2 separate days. It doesn’t work that way.