Is most of the music we hear at Mass [censored!]

[RPRPsych]

A philosopher decides to go into provocative mode:

wdtprs.com/blog/2016/06/actonu-2016-wrap-up-and-a-scholarship-opportunity/

Leaving aside your personal opinions of Dr. Kreeft*, what do you think of his statement?

I personally feel that not all contemporary music is that bad. Also, it’s a cultural thing. The songs at a Tamil OF Mass are generally quite old-school, while the English OF Masses here tend to innovate - in my hometown, the choir is run by fans of old-school pop and country/western, so they take the tunes and change the words. Entertaining, but not always conducive to prayer or devotion.

• I personally had my reservations about the good Doctor when, in a debate with Robert Spencer, he spoke about putting down the OF Mass in front of a Muslim student. It may have been a rhetorical device, but if we’re going to pounce on Francis or Benedict for everything they say in public, well…

 

[Eichelbaum]

It would be nice to hear Dr. Kreeft’s actual comments.

I would hate to analyze his argument without recourse to… the argument.

 

[dmar198]

A philosopher decides to go into provocative mode:

wdtprs.com/blog/2016/06/actonu-2016-wrap-up-and-a-scholarship-opportunity/

Leaving aside your personal opinions of Dr. Kreeft*, what do you think of his statement?

I personally feel that not all contemporary music is that bad. Also, it’s a cultural thing. The songs at a Tamil OF Mass are generally quite old-school, while the English OF Masses here tend to innovate - in my hometown, the choir is run by fans of old-school pop and country/western, so they take the tunes and change the words. Entertaining, but not always conducive to prayer or devotion.

• I personally had my reservations about the good Doctor when, in a debate with Robert Spencer, he spoke about putting down the OF Mass in front of a Muslim student. It may have been a rhetorical device, but if we’re going to pounce on Francis or Benedict for everything they say in public, well…

I think the music at most Masses has basically always been too modern. You might like this article:

The Ancient Problem of Bad Music at Mass
historyandapologetics.com/2015/11/the-ancient-problem-of-bad-modern-music.html

It goes into some of the history of bad music at Mass, with quotes from faithful Catholics of the 1800s, 1700s, 1600s, 1500s, and before all complaining that the music at Mass is too modern, too similar to “entertainment music,” and not sacred enough. My favorite is from Bishop William Lindanus from 1560 A.D. He described the “sacred” music of one of his parishes this way: “Everything was a jumble of syllables repeated, of confused voices, and [the] meaning remained submerged… [M]ore than singing, it was a deafening clamor, a roar decomposed.” (Panoplia Evangelica Book 4 Chapter 78, as quoted in Annus Qui Hunc 9) Sounds a lot like Dr. Kreeft’s complaint!

If I had to guess, I would guess that we moderns are actually in a Better position than our predecessors were, because the internet has granted even the remotest parish in America the power to easily find and print actual sacred music. Most priests have never been specialists in music, and I would guess that for a long time they’ve been at the mercy of volunteers who often care more about the latest styles than the sacred styles. What’s a priest to do if he’s told he should have sacred music but no one in his parish Knows any sacred music, and they’re too poor to purchase it? Well, in modern times that’s unlikely to happen. Priests can print good music from the internet and integrate it the same way other music is integrated. Thus I think we are actually in a good position to recover the sacred in song, whereas in times past, it would have been harder.

My two cents. Let me know if it’s helpful.

 

[Murmurs]

I think the music at most Masses has basically always been too modern. You might like this article:

The Ancient Problem of Bad Music at Mass
historyandapologetics.com/2015/11/the-ancient-problem-of-bad-modern-music.html

It goes into some of the history of bad music at Mass, with quotes from faithful Catholics of the 1800s, 1700s, 1600s, 1500s, and before all complaining that the music at Mass is too modern, too similar to “entertainment music,” and not sacred enough. My favorite is from Bishop William Lindanus from 1560 A.D. He described the “sacred” music of one of his parishes this way: “Everything was a jumble of syllables repeated, of confused voices, and [the] meaning remained submerged… [M]ore than singing, it was a deafening clamor, a roar decomposed.” (Panoplia Evangelica Book 4 Chapter 78, as quoted in Annus Qui Hunc 9) Sounds a lot like Dr. Kreeft’s complaint!

If I had to guess, I would guess that we moderns are actually in a Better position than our predecessors were, because the internet has granted even the remotest parish in America the power to easily find and print actual sacred music. Most priests have never been specialists in music, and I would guess that for a long time they’ve been at the mercy of volunteers who often care more about the latest styles than the sacred styles. What’s a priest to do if he’s told he should have sacred music but no one in his parish Knows any sacred music, and they’re too poor to purchase it? Well, in modern times that’s unlikely to happen. Priests can print good music from the internet and integrate it the same way other music is integrated. Thus I think we are actually in a good position to recover the sacred in song, whereas in times past, it would have been harder.

My two cents. Let me know if it’s helpful.

Personally I’m broadly open minded about music at Mass (we should be thankful there are people who are willing to give so much of their time, at all).

However your comment, dmar198, reminds me of an article I read once when writing my undergrad dissertation (on C19th Anglican church music), and advice given to clergymen interested in setting up a church choir (original underlining):
The Parish Choir:

The most essential acquisition to start with, is a Precentor: one who by his firm yet courteous deportment may exercise control over the organist, a functionary not unfailingly selected for his restrained and nice sense of ecclesiastical propriety.

As you were saying - plus ça change?

 

[Usige]

I don’t think it is so much a matter of modern vs traditional as the question of wrapping the sacred in secular garments so to speak. I often get the feeling that people gravitate towards music for Mass that matches what they enjoy listening to on the way to the shopping center. The article dmar198 posted seems to say that music selection has always been subjected to the musician’s personal taste. For everyone that think a piece is sublime, there are others that will find the piece to be utter σκύβαλα (see I did read the article ).

I have long been a proponent of an ecclesiastical music degree. Just as we have degrees in theology (STx) and law (JCx), I would love to see music degrees that are steeped in the sacred sciences. Most people I know that are involved with Church music have almost no education in theology, hymnology, or liturgy. If they have formal music education it is generally in performance or music theory/composition. That is not bad it of itself, but vary rarely is the focus of their degree in sacred music. That means that much of the education is going to be based on secular influences. An ecclesiastical music degree would be specifically focus on what elements define something as sacred. It would also include the theological nature and purpose of various parts of the Mass so that pieces are written to reflect the nature of the Mass and not simply be a chance for artistic expression.

Once there was a ecclesiastic music degree then we could have something like a censor librorum for sacred music. This would hopefully provide some level of assurance that the music and lyrics have some level of basic sacred character that is consistent with worship. I am not talking specifically about style, but a way to ensure that music is appropriate to the Mass.

Some might complain that it would limit their artistic choices, but the Mass is not supposed to be a place to express our preferred musicality. The Mass is supposed to be universal and there should be someway to have a universal musical language that doesn’t simply rely on personal preference.

 

[pianistclare]

Most of the complainers would hate the music everywhere.
There. I said it.
Yes I did.
Being a church musician fro most of my life (even in my latest position within the parish and a Catholic school, I have always contributed to the music liturgy) haters are everywhere.
The Mass is not the personal property of anyone.
If a pastor wants a certain kind of music, he will always say so. Believe it or not, all music takes place with the expressed approval of the Pastor. :yup:

Going up to the Choir Director with “suggestions” doesn’t help. Rolling your eyes is not nice. Holding your hands over your ears? Just rude.

I would love to read the entire article.
But I suspect that the same people that get worked up about this are the same ones that criticize every homily, every priest that visits, and every religion teacher in the parish.

I say this all the time: I always offer to lead a schola. I always offer to place the Latin hymns where they are supposed to be for big feasts, not even all the time!. I am told, "nah…the people don’t remember it, know it, want to learn it, or whatever. So don’t do it please. "

I don’t want to go back to the 4x4 hymns all the time, but I am sad that the children have no clue of the CLASSIC Catholic hymns that every Catholic should know, or at least be able to follow along.

I don’t particularly like the praise and worship music. It has it’s place at youth groups and gatherings…but most of it is not for liturgy. And it’s hard for certain segments of the congregation to sing well. If you don’t have a band…don’t even try it. It sounds stupid.
Do what you can do WELL…and let the haters rant.

Peace out.

 

[27lw]

Okay, there’s this thing, called the “Roman Gradual”, or “Graduale Romanum”…

"The Roman Gradual (Latin Graduale Romanum) is an official liturgical book of the Roman Rite containing chants, including the Gradual but many more as well, for use at Mass.

The latest edition, that of 1974, takes account of the 1970 revision of the Roman Missal.

In 1979, the Graduale Triplex: The Roman Gradual With the Addition of Neums from Ancient Manuscripts (ISBN 978-2852740440 in English; ISBN 978-2-85274-094-5 in Latin) was published. It adds reproductions of the neumes from ancient manuscripts placed above and below the later notation."

 

[pianistclare]

Okay, there’s this thing, called the “Roman Gradual”, or “Graduale Romanum”…

"The Roman Gradual (Latin Graduale Romanum) is an official liturgical book of the Roman Rite containing chants, including the Gradual but many more as well, for use at Mass.

The latest edition, that of 1974, takes account of the 1970 revision of the Roman Missal.

In 1979, the Graduale Triplex: The Roman Gradual With the Addition of Neums from Ancient Manuscripts (ISBN 978-2852740440 in English; ISBN 978-2-85274-094-5 in Latin) was published. It adds reproductions of the neumes from ancient manuscripts placed above and below the later notation."

And your piont is???

 

[RPRPsych]

Most of the complainers would hate the music everywhere.
There. I said it.
Yes I did.
Being a church musician fro most of my life (even in my latest position within the parish and a Catholic school, I have always contributed to the music liturgy) haters are everywhere.
The Mass is not the personal property of anyone.
If a pastor wants a certain kind of music, he will always say so. Believe it or not, all music takes place with the expressed approval of the Pastor. :yup:

Going up to the Choir Director with “suggestions” doesn’t help. Rolling your eyes is not nice. Holding your hands over your ears? Just rude.

I would love to read the entire article.
But I suspect that the same people that get worked up about this are the same ones that criticize every homily, every priest that visits, and every religion teacher in the parish.

I say this all the time: I always offer to lead a schola. I always offer to place the Latin hymns where they are supposed to be for big feasts, not even all the time!. I am told, "nah…the people don’t remember it, know it, want to learn it, or whatever. So don’t do it please. "

I don’t want to go back to the 4x4 hymns all the time, but I am sad that the children have no clue of the CLASSIC Catholic hymns that every Catholic should know, or at least be able to follow along.

I don’t particularly like the praise and worship music. It has it’s place at youth groups and gatherings…but most of it is not for liturgy. And it’s hard for certain segments of the congregation to sing well. If you don’t have a band…don’t even try it. It sounds stupid.
Do what you can do WELL…and let the haters rant.

Peace out.

Great post!

And yes, I’m not a big fan of “praise and worship” music myself. It’s okay for more informal settings, but not for the sacrifice of the Mass. I would rather have no singing than be forced to listen to “Above All” or “Breath of Heaven” once more. I still don’t know where one gets off calling it “****”, even if you’re going to use a fancy Greek word.

 

[twf]

And your piont is???

I assume he means that while almost no one in the pews has ever heard of it, it remains the Church’s “norm” for liturgical music.

 

[pianistclare]

I assume he means that while almost no one in the pews has ever heard of it, it remains the Church’s “norm” for liturgical music.

The priests have certainly heard of it, and excuse me, all us Church Musicians certainly have and are trained in it.

 

[pianistclare]

Great post!

And yes, I’m not a big fan of “praise and worship” music myself. It’s okay for more informal settings, but not for the sacrifice of the Mass. I would rather have no singing than be forced to listen to “Above All” or “Breath of Heaven” once more. I still don’t know where one gets off calling it “****”, even if you’re going to use a fancy Greek word.

LOL

Mary Did You Know is the worst Christmas offender, actually.

 

[RPRPsych]

LOL

Mary Did You Know is the worst Christmas offender, actually.

Er, to be honest…

THAT SONG REALLY GETS ON MY NERVES! IT’S THE CHRISTMAS SONG EQUIVALENT OF FINGERNAILS ON A CHALKBOARD!

…I don’t care much for that song either. Unfortunately we usually have it inflicted on us in the form of a “solo” (usually by a young woman with delusions of being the next Amy Grant) every Christmas at my home parish.

 

[pianistclare]

Er, to be honest…

THAT SONG REALLY GETS ON MY NERVES! IT’S THE CHRISTMAS SONG EQUIVALENT OF FINGERNAILS ON A CHALKBOARD!

…I don’t care much for that song either. Unfortunately we usually have it inflicted on us in the form of a “solo” (usually by a young woman with delusions of being the next Amy Grant) every Christmas at my home parish.

Yeah, I think it’s that way everywhere.

Whatever happened to Jesu Banimo?
Or HINT HINT O Holy Night?
Just as good a way to flex your chops.

 

[RPRPsych]

Yeah, I think it’s that way everywhere.

Whatever happened to Jesu Banimo?
Or HINT HINT O Holy Night?
Just as good a way to flex your chops.

I love O Holy Night!

 

[27lw]

The priests have certainly heard of it, and excuse me, all us Church Musicians certainly have and are trained in it.

The priests have certainly heard of it - - but I’m not sure all Church musicians have. And I bet that most parishioners have no idea that this exists. I bet there are many on this very thread (many of whom have strong opinions about church music) who don’t know that there is such a thing.

 

[pianistclare]

The priests have certainly heard of it - - but I’m not sure all Church musicians have. And I bet that most parishioners have no idea that this exists. I bet there are many on this very thread (many of whom have strong opinions about church music) who don’t know that there is such a thing.

Well, MY point is…

If your priest doesn’t want it, then there’s not a lot a church musician can do.
Regardless of whether anyone is well versed or not. (no pun intended).

And none that I have ever worked for were eager to use it.
Been doing church music for over 30 years. In rural and metropolitan parishes.

 

[ProVobis]

The Mass is not the personal property of anyone.

That’s why we see copyrights everywhere.

 

[pianistclare]

That’s why we see copyrights everywhere.

On the Mass? NO.
A composer, on the other hand has a right to copyright his work.

 

[dmar198]

LOL

Mary Did You Know is the worst Christmas offender, actually.

Er, to be honest…

THAT SONG REALLY GETS ON MY NERVES! IT’S THE CHRISTMAS SONG EQUIVALENT OF FINGERNAILS ON A CHALKBOARD!

…I don’t care much for that song either. Unfortunately we usually have it inflicted on us in the form of a “solo” (usually by a young woman with delusions of being the next Amy Grant) every Christmas at my home parish.

We did that song at my church. I actually think it’s really beautiful. Me and my sister and one of my friends also convinced the head of the contemporary music ensemble to let us do an a capella version of “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence” for the Communion song at Christmas Mass. In my opinion, that song is a great Communion song for Christmastime, because it talks about the Savior coming down from heaven And giving us His self for food. (It’s not listed as a Christmas song, but I think it’s got Christmas-y themes in the lyrics.)

Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence followed by Mary Did You Know?

I preferred the more classic one.