Is most of the music we hear at Mass [censored!]

[pianistclare]

We did that song at my church. I actually think it’s really beautiful. Me and my sister and one of my friends also convinced the head of the contemporary music ensemble to let us do an a capella version of “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence” for the Communion song at Christmas Mass. In my opinion, that song is a great Communion song for Christmastime, because it talks about the Savior coming down from heaven And giving us His self for food. (It’s not listed as a Christmas song, but I think it’s got Christmas-y themes in the lyrics.)

Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence followed by Mary Did You Know?

I preferred the more classic one.

Nothing wrong with Let All Mortal Flesh…
the problem with the other one is the lyrics.

 

[dmar198]

Nothing wrong with Let All Mortal Flesh…
the problem with the other one is the lyrics.

What’s wrong with the lyrics to Mary Did You Know?

 

[OraLabora]

The priests have certainly heard of it - - but I’m not sure all Church musicians have. And I bet that most parishioners have no idea that this exists. I bet there are many on this very thread (many of whom have strong opinions about church music) who don’t know that there is such a thing.

Caveat: I use the Graduale Triplex every Sunday at a Benedictine monastery and sing in a schola that also uses it, and I love Gregorian chant to the point that I also use for the Liturgy of the Hours every day.

However, I wouldn’t expect the average person in the pew to know about it. The Graduale Romanum (and even more so the Triplex variant) are not really intended so that the average person in the pew can use it. The Graduale Simplex was published for churches that didn’t have the resources for a well-formed Gregorian chant choir. It has much simpler chant settings based on the simpler antiphon formulae used for the Divine Office. But even that requires training.

And even if they did know about it, let’s face it the odds that the average person in the pew will sing along with the congregation in a complex introit, gradual or offertory are so small as to be infinitesimal. Even in monasteries, the Graduale would be the province of the choir monks only and not the lay brothers until post-Vatican II when that category of monk was gradually phased out and all monks became professed and participated in choir. Even then, not all of them will sing along with the schola. At the local abbey several monks don’t sing, but thankfully enough do that we have a very beautiful Mass in Gregorian chant.

The simpler settings of the Ordinary in Latin/Greek would certainly be within reach of most, but the Propers from the Graduale Romanum require a well-trained choir to execute properly. Bad Gregorian chant won’t sound any better than well-sung modern hymns.

At the parish level, to put it simply, if folks want to hear Gregorian chant, there is only one option: put together a schola and rehearse, rehearse, rehearse… and get some proper training.

It does nothing to complain about it. Do something about it. That’s what I did, I stumbled upon a schola that was doing it on a monthly basis at different parishes in their area. It was close enough to me that I could participate, so I joined, got some private lessons from the monk who was our choirmaster and also choirmaster of the abbey, and worked, worked, worked until it “clicked” and I finally got it right. Now I teach our schola and others how to psalmody.

Gregorian chant isn’t suddenly going to fall from the sky, and certainly don’t expect the pastor to suddenly pull a choir out of thin air.

If one can form a stable group to obtain an EF Mass, then surely one can assemble a schola of enthusiasts for the OF, and find a place willing to accommodate it at least occasionally.

All I ever hear on CAF is griping about bad Church music and preferring Gregorian chant, yet I encounter few people actually doing something about it. What we did discover with our schola, is that there is a certain amount of nostalgia for chant out there and thus parishes willing to host us once or twice a year. Enough in fact, that we are able to put together an annual program of about 10-12 Masses, solemn Vespers and Lauds 3x per year, and a couple of concerts on top of that, including one sold-out concert where we were the only performers last winter.

But I doubt that there’ll be enough interest to sustain it in a parish every week. Those with that interest tend to gravitate to the EF. I do wish it would be used more int he OF but alas I have to be realistic.

 

[pianistclare]

What’s wrong with the lyrics to Mary Did You Know?

It makes it sound like she was clueless…and her role was just hoisted upon her. It takes away her fiat.

There are FAR better choices, in the realm of Catholic Mass Appropriate Music.

 

[pianistclare]

Caveat: I use the Graduale Triplex every Sunday at a Benedictine monastery and sing in a schola that also uses it, and I love Gregorian chant to the point that I also use for the Liturgy of the Hours every day.

However, I wouldn’t expect the average person in the pew to know about it. The Graduale Romanum (and even more so the Triplex variant) are not really intended so that the average person in the pew can use it. The Graduale Simplex was published for churches that didn’t have the resources for a well-formed Gregorian chant choir. It has much simpler chant settings based on the simpler antiphon formulae used for the Divine Office. But even that requires training.

And even if they did know about it, let’s face it the odds that the average person in the pew will sing along with the congregation in a complex introit, gradual or offertory are so small as to be infinitesimal. Even in monasteries, the Graduale would be the province of the choir monks only and not the lay brothers until post-Vatican II when that category of monk was gradually phased out and all monks became professed and participated in choir. Even then, not all of them will sing along with the schola. At the local abbey several monks don’t sing, but thankfully enough do that we have a very beautiful Mass in Gregorian chant.

The simpler settings of the Ordinary in Latin/Greek would certainly be within reach of most, but the Propers from the Graduale Romanum require a well-trained choir to execute properly. Bad Gregorian chant won’t sound any better than well-sung modern hymns.

At the parish level, to put it simply, if folks want to hear Gregorian chant, there is only one option: put together a schola and rehearse, rehearse, rehearse… and get some proper training.

It does nothing to complain about it. Do something about it. That’s what I did, I stumbled upon a schola that was doing it on a monthly basis at different parishes in their area. It was close enough to me that I could participate, so I joined, got some private lessons from the monk who was our choirmaster and also choirmaster of the abbey, and worked, worked, worked until it “clicked” and I finally got it right. Now I teach our schola and others how to psalmody.

Gregorian chant isn’t suddenly going to fall from the sky, and certainly don’t expect the pastor to suddenly pull a choir out of thin air.

If one can form a stable group to obtain an EF Mass, then surely one can assemble a schola of enthusiasts for the OF, and find a place willing to accommodate it at least occasionally.

All I ever hear on CAF is griping about bad Church music and preferring Gregorian chant, yet I encounter few people actually doing something about it. What we did discover with our schola, is that there is a certain amount of nostalgia for chant out there and thus parishes willing to host us once or twice a year. Enough in fact, that we are able to put together an annual program of about 10-12 Masses, solemn Vespers and Lauds 3x per year, and a couple of concerts on top of that, including one sold-out concert where we were the only performers last winter.

But I doubt that there’ll be enough interest to sustain it in a parish every week. Those with that interest tend to gravitate to the EF. I do wish it would be used more int he OF but alas I have to be realistic.

YES.

 

[dmar198]

It makes it sound like she was clueless…and her role was just hoisted upon her. It takes away her fiat.

Mark Shea writes an article here which makes a similar point. He says that the song portrays Mary as clueless and even hostile towards Jesus. “[It’s] a song that has no place in the liturgy since it is…marinated in a [poor] theology.”

However, I don’t think the song is bad and I don’t think it reflects poor theology. I think it asks her all those questions about what she knew in order to prompt us to reflect on what the Scriptures say she knew. The gospels portray Mary with plenty of knowledge of the Messiah’s role and her Son’s identity, and I think the song is meant to point us toward that.

If Mary Didn’t know any of the stuff the song asks her about, it would seem to follow that her role in salvation history was to bear the Messiah cluelessly, and therefore without some degree of informed consent. No consent is a consequence of no knowledge. But I don’t think the song indicates that she didn’t know who her Son was, so I don’t accept the consequence either. The song doesn’t deny that Mary consented to being Jesus’s mother, knowing who He would be. It just asks her to tell us about it, in my opinion.

My fallible, could-be-wrong opinion.

 

[pianistclare]

Mark Shea writes an article here which makes a similar point. He says that the song portrays Mary as clueless and even hostile towards Jesus. “[It’s] a song that has no place in the liturgy since it is…marinated in a [poor] theology.”

However, I don’t think the song is bad and I don’t think it reflects poor theology. I think it asks her all those questions about what she knew in order to prompt us to reflect on what the Scriptures say she knew. The gospels portray Mary with plenty of knowledge of the Messiah’s role and her Son’s identity, and I think the song is meant to point us toward that.

If Mary Didn’t know any of the stuff the song asks her about, it would seem to follow that her role in salvation history was to bear the Messiah cluelessly, and therefore without some degree of informed consent. No consent is a consequence of no knowledge. But I don’t think the song indicates that she didn’t know who her Son was, so I don’t accept the consequence either. The song doesn’t deny that Mary consented to being Jesus’s mother, knowing who He would be. It just asks her to tell us about it, in my opinion.

My fallible, could-be-wrong opinion.

The real thing to ask is what did the composer intend to convey?
Seriously though. the problem from my viewpoint is that many secular thoughts creep into our children’s minds. Secular notions being presented as “gospel” you should pardon the expression. This reminds me of a dear cradle catholic friend of mine who read the Da Vinci Code and said “Clare! I didn’t know Jesus was the boyfriend of Mary Magdalene!” Like it was true because someone wrote it down.

Kids are pretty vulnerable, and so are the Christmas and Easter Catholics.

peace.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

I agree with Dr. Kreeft. Only sacred music should be permitted in the Mass. I thought it was hilarious when he said, “They do not even rise to the dignity of heresy.”

 

[OraLabora]

I agree with Dr. Kreeft.

Are you prepared to participate to make it happen?

 

[27lw]

Caveat: I use the Graduale Triplex every Sunday at a Benedictine monastery and sing in a schola that also uses it, and I love Gregorian chant to the point that I also use for the Liturgy of the Hours every day.

However, I wouldn’t expect the average person in the pew to know about it. The Graduale Romanum (and even more so the Triplex variant) are not really intended so that the average person in the pew can use it. The Graduale Simplex was published for churches that didn’t have the resources for a well-formed Gregorian chant choir. It has much simpler chant settings based on the simpler antiphon formulae used for the Divine Office. But even that requires training.

And even if they did know about it, let’s face it the odds that the average person in the pew will sing along with the congregation in a complex introit, gradual or offertory are so small as to be infinitesimal. Even in monasteries, the Graduale would be the province of the choir monks only and not the lay brothers until post-Vatican II when that category of monk was gradually phased out and all monks became professed and participated in choir. Even then, not all of them will sing along with the schola. At the local abbey several monks don’t sing, but thankfully enough do that we have a very beautiful Mass in Gregorian chant.

The simpler settings of the Ordinary in Latin/Greek would certainly be within reach of most, but the Propers from the Graduale Romanum require a well-trained choir to execute properly. Bad Gregorian chant won’t sound any better than well-sung modern hymns.

At the parish level, to put it simply, if folks want to hear Gregorian chant, there is only one option: put together a schola and rehearse, rehearse, rehearse… and get some proper training.

It does nothing to complain about it. Do something about it. That’s what I did, I stumbled upon a schola that was doing it on a monthly basis at different parishes in their area. It was close enough to me that I could participate, so I joined, got some private lessons from the monk who was our choirmaster and also choirmaster of the abbey, and worked, worked, worked until it “clicked” and I finally got it right. Now I teach our schola and others how to psalmody.

Gregorian chant isn’t suddenly going to fall from the sky, and certainly don’t expect the pastor to suddenly pull a choir out of thin air.

If one can form a stable group to obtain an EF Mass, then surely one can assemble a schola of enthusiasts for the OF, and find a place willing to accommodate it at least occasionally.

All I ever hear on CAF is griping about bad Church music and preferring Gregorian chant, yet I encounter few people actually doing something about it. What we did discover with our schola, is that there is a certain amount of nostalgia for chant out there and thus parishes willing to host us once or twice a year. Enough in fact, that we are able to put together an annual program of about 10-12 Masses, solemn Vespers and Lauds 3x per year, and a couple of concerts on top of that, including one sold-out concert where we were the only performers last winter.

But I doubt that there’ll be enough interest to sustain it in a parish every week. Those with that interest tend to gravitate to the EF. I do wish it would be used more int he OF but alas I have to be realistic.

I’d be happy to participate. I am a professional musician who plays most weeks at my parish as part of the choir. How am I supposed to say to the music director, who is a very nice man, oh, do you ever think of using more chant? Or using the propers - - rather than the usual stuff? Do you think priests ever bring it up with their music director?

I was pointing out that most parishioners don’t know about chant / the propers / the Gradual, is because most (almost all?) parishioners just think it’s a matter of picking out 4 hymns out of the hymnal. I bet a lot of people here on CAF know about GIRM, and Canon Law, and all kinds of very specific things about the Church. That doesn’t mean they want to interpret Canon Law, but it is helpful to know such a thing exists. Same thing with the Gradual - - sure not everyone could sing complex chant, but maybe it could be done some of the time. But how many priests or music directors want it included in their Mass?

 

[OraLabora]

I’d be happy to participate. I am a professional musician who plays most weeks at my parish as part of the choir. How am I supposed to say to the music director, who is a very nice man, oh, do you ever think of using more chant? Or using the propers - - rather than the usual stuff? Do you think priests ever bring it up with their music director?

What a group of men did, was get together and start their own schola. I found out about them and joined them 14 years ago, and been with them ever since. I help put together our liturgies (specifically the Divine Office), teach psalmody to them, and sing with them.

We aren’t attached to a specific parish though a specific parish allows us to use their church to rehearse and we do sing there once or twice a year. Our choirmaster is well connected in the city we sing in, and every year he scrounges together a program by calling around at various parishes. Every month we sing at a different parish.

Our experience has been that while most parishes won’t want Gregorian too frequently (learned that the hard way by always singing at the same parish for a couple of years), most are really keen to have us once or twice a year; then it’s seen as a special treat and at the same time gives the regular choir a day off. The “Gregorian Rovers” as it were

So yes I would say there is still something you can do, especially if you are a professional musician. There are other cities in Canada where Gregorian scholas have popped up, on a similar basis to us. In one city (Chicoutimi, Quebec), a parish priest who passed away bequeathed a part of his estate to finance the start of a schola. In our own case we are all amateurs. We finance ourselves by also singing at funerals, and for the first time this year, a wedding (very nice experience, the bride was the daughter of one of our choristers). We are largely dependent on the work of our choristers as well. One prepares the music sheets for the Mass; I prepare the music books for the Liturgy of the Hours when we sing it, and do the arrangements of the psalms for Mass in French (we don’t sing the Gradual, instead we do the responsorial psalm with antiphon and psalmody on Gregorian tones, which requires adaptation to French). Another handles the finances, etc.

I also wouldn’t hesitate to bring it up with your music director. I often make suggestions to our choirmaster, even though he often shoots them down. Just say something like “wouldn’t it be nice if…”; then offer to do the research and the training. You don’t have to start with the complex propers, just the Ordinary for now until you get the feel. Maybe once in a while one of the easier introits. Or perhaps the simple English propers. Sometimes it takes time. I had for years been suggesting the psalm tone arrangements in French that the local abbey uses for the minor hours chanted in French (Lauds and Vespers are in Latin there), but faced resistance. Then finally, exasperated with a badly flubbed psalm at Mass, he said OK try it. It turned out to work beautifully, and now it’s our standard. But it took perseverance and a lot of “maybe we could give those tones from Fr. G. a try”.

My point is that it just doesn’t “happen”. Someone has to make it happen, and that requires leadership.

 

[27lw]

I think I just need to figure out the right tactful way to bring it up, without implying “you’re doing it all wrong!”. Because, of course, he’s not doing it all wrong - - but it seems to be that much of this depends on the priest. Our parish’s music changed rather drastically when we got our current pastor - - not sure the pastor would want the music to change direction that much. But it can’t hurt to ask, I suppose!
Thanks!

 

[RPRPsych]

The real thing to ask is what did the composer intend to convey?

Exactly. It was written by a Protestant, so we can’t expect a full Mariology (or even a Mariology, in many cases) from them. Ditto with “Breath of Heaven”.

Seriously though. the problem from my viewpoint is that many secular thoughts creep into our children’s minds. Secular notions being presented as “gospel” you should pardon the expression. This reminds me of a dear cradle catholic friend of mine who read the Da Vinci Code and said “Clare! I didn’t know Jesus was the boyfriend of Mary Magdalene!” Like it was true because someone wrote it down.

Kids are pretty vulnerable, and so are the Christmas and Easter Catholics.

peace.

Very true. The more I think of it, the more I guess Dr. Kreeft was right, salty language and all.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

Are you prepared to participate to make it happen?

My parish is already using sacred music in their Masses. I still pray that sacred music be restored and I try to spread awareness of it.

 

[OraLabora]

My parish is already using sacred music in their Masses. I still pray that sacred music be restored and I try to spread awareness of it.

I think that’s where our “Gregorian Rovers” concept is handy. We even have a couple of “groupies” who make sure they attend Mass at the parish we’re singing in on the days we sing

It does spread awareness of chant around the diocese; it does help that the diocese also is home to a Benedictine abbey that uses Gregorian chant and Latin daily which is packed every Sunday. We also do concerts usually at least once per season, which is very helpful as well because then it reaches out to people who love chant but never go to Church. We always have our concerts around themes; last time was a walk through the liturgical year. By reaching out this way it is remotely possible that we inspire someone to come to the Church.

Plus we have a lot of fun doing it. The other choristers are like brothers to me, and it’s like a small community. A couple of them are oblates like myself. Singing Gregorian chant in the middle of a schola is a very deep spiritual experience. I tend to have terrific stage fright, but never when I’m in the schola.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

I think that’s where our “Gregorian Rovers” concept is handy. We even have a couple of “groupies” who make sure they attend Mass at the parish we’re singing in on the days we sing

It does spread awareness of chant around the diocese; it does help that the diocese also is home to a Benedictine abbey that uses Gregorian chant and Latin daily which is packed every Sunday. We also do concerts usually at least once per season, which is very helpful as well because then it reaches out to people who love chant but never go to Church. We always have our concerts around themes; last time was a walk through the liturgical year. By reaching out this way it is remotely possible that we inspire someone to come to the Church.

Plus we have a lot of fun doing it. The other choristers are like brothers to me, and it’s like a small community. A couple of them are oblates like myself. Singing Gregorian chant in the middle of a schola is a very deep spiritual experience. I tend to have terrific stage fright, but never when I’m in the schola.

I’m glad to hear about the work you and your schola do in spreading sacred music. Our diocese has a Norbertine Abbey that also has Latin chant, and the priests from this abbey staff our parish. They provide the best sacred music in the diocese and it attracts people from all over.

 

[Havard]

For a resource to help parishes incorporate sacred music:

benedictinstitute.org/

The full site isn’t launched but the institute is definitely active.

 

[corsair]

Our FSSP parish uses Gregorian chant and Sacred polyphony, almost exclusively. There are a few occasions when we will use a vernacular “old” hymn.

 

[RPRPsych]

Our FSSP parish uses Gregorian chant and Sacred polyphony, almost exclusively. There are a few occasions when we will use a vernacular “old” hymn.

Sounds good!

 

[Gertabelle]

**How am I supposed to say to the music director, who is a very nice man, oh, do you ever think of using more chant? Or using the propers - - rather than the usual stuff? **Do you think priests ever bring it up with their music director?

Simple. You say, “Do you ever think of using more chant?”

Seriously, when I was the accompanist at one parish years ago, I simply brought in a few of my favorite pieces and showed them to the choir director. She wasn’t the least bit offended – as a musician, she completely understood the desire to share music that one loves!

She did use a couple pieces. Over the years, I showed her a couple hymns in the hymnal that she didn’t know, and she fell in love with them and added them to the choir’s repertoire.

AND, a couple members of the choir overheard our conversation after rehearsal one day (about which Psalm arrangement we’d sing on Sundays) and they chimed in that they didn’t think it was acceptable to use the correct refrain but the wrong verses (as some of our hymns did, which we sometimes sang for the Psalm).

The result? From that moment on, she ALWAYS used the correct Psalm and Alleluia verse – always.

Point is, nobody is going to read your mind. Be detached from the outcome, and share your thoughts. Then leave it in God’s hands.

Coraggio!