Is Muhammad foretold in the Bible?

[TonyBS]

So, TonyBS, what you are claiming from all this, going by some scholars from the 1800s, is that Muhammad was in the OT, and that he did have a religion that reached its end point, and though not described as being explicitly so in the Bible, it is the case nonetheless, due to dates in the OT that appear to correlate with certain details in the Koran? Just trying to clarify for myself more than anything that I’m getting your point.

Dear Fran - I claim not a thing I am saying others were on the right path, but deviated before they got to the end of it!

From my research, I suggest that since Jesus the Christ there has been 3 Independent Religions that Have been Proclaimed and each Have a Book/Books/Volumes that are said to Contain the Words Given from God.

Each of these can be found in the Bible if one looks and if one does, the History of Mankind unfolds with uncanny accuracy if one does Includes them.

If one does not include them, then we have what we have

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Most of the biblical scholars I know, and I’m a professor of Christology and Moral Theology, say it is Christ’s love song to his Church, though it does sound a bit graphic at times.

Apparently, we are both correct:

usccb.org/bible/songofsongs/0

And I agree, Mohammad was not mentioned.

My take on Shir ha-Shirim is that it was written well before Jesus entered this world, and that it was an erotic love poem. I guess that the allegory (God’s love for Israel / God’s love for the Church) came later. Too bad. It’s a beautiful love poem.

And about Mohammad? Well, his ancestors are mentioned. I don’t know if there are any Biblical passages that Muslims think foretell his coming. Christians took Hebrew scriptures and interpreted them retroactively; it makes sense that Muslims might have done that too.

 

[friardchips]

Dear Fran - I claim not a thing I am saying others were on the right path, but deviated before they got to the end of it!

Hi. I’m not Fran!

By saying others “…deviated before they…” etc…, you are making a claim. What you are doing is quoting others that made such a claim quite a long time ago.

From my research, I suggest that since Jesus the Christ there has been 3 Independent Religions that Have been Proclaimed and each Have a Book/Books/Volumes that are said to Contain the Words Given from God.

Each of these can be found in the Bible if one looks and if one does, the History of Mankind unfolds with uncanny accuracy if one does Includes them.

If one does not include them, then we have what we have

God Bless and Regards Tony

The Islam religion was not founded until centuries after Christianity.

Snippets of the Bible were taken and from other sources too and placed into a new book centuries after Christianity that formed the basis for the Muslim religion. However, there was no need for this to be done, because the Lord had already chosen the Gospel writers with their vocations, and given commission to the Apostles and disciples of the Lord, to proclaim the “Good News”. Not one set of good news, but THE “Good News”. And this was quite explicit in how and what was to be done.

Best wishes and have a nice day.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

My take on Shir ha-Shirim is that it was written well before Jesus entered this world, and that it was an erotic love poem. I guess that the allegory (God’s love for Israel / God’s love for the Church) came later. Too bad. It’s a beautiful love poem.

And about Mohammad? Well, his ancestors are mentioned. I don’t know if there are any Biblical passages that Muslims think foretell his coming. Christians took Hebrew scriptures and interpreted them retroactively; it makes sense that Muslims might have done that too.

Thank you. After reading your post, I do agree with you. Thanks again!

 

[friardchips]

My take on Shir ha-Shirim is that it was written well before Jesus entered this world, and that it was an erotic love poem. I guess that the allegory (God’s love for Israel / God’s love for the Church) came later. Too bad. It’s a beautiful love poem.

This is more than a love poem. And considered so in Christianity and I think also in Judaism. Maybe for different reasons but not considered only a beautiful love poem - which it is also! It is definitely a beautiful love poem too.

And about Mohammad? Well, his ancestors are mentioned. I don’t know if there are any Biblical passages that Muslims think foretell his coming. Christians took Hebrew scriptures and interpreted them retroactively; it makes sense that Muslims might have done that too.

The ancestors of many religions might be in the OT but this doesn’t mean necessarily that they are explicitly the ancestors of those who eventually converted to Islam. Everything said so far in such claims can only be treated as speculation. We know the Babylonians are in the Hebrew Scriptures, we know the Egyptians are in there before, because both are specifically mentioned. Islam came a lot, lot later. We all, if we look back, might find ancestors in places we might not have imagined, so this proposal is not some fantastic theory, but just a fairly logical, or at least probable, estimation. Maybe many U.K. inhabitants and those of the U.S have ancestors that were Celts or even Saxons that worshipped pagan ideas, maybe with a portion of them becoming Presbyterians, but is this a major finding? Not really. It is just a logical estimation based upon probability.

 

[friardchips]

edited.

 

[kimg901]

TonyBS, your name says it all.

 

[TonyBS]

Hi. I’m not Fran!
By saying others “…deviated before they…” etc…, you are making a claim. What you are doing is quoting others that made such a claim quite a long time ago.

The Islam religion was not founded until centuries after Christianity.

Snippets of the Bible were taken and from other sources too and placed into a new book centuries after Christianity that formed the basis for the Muslim religion. However, there was no need for this to be done, because the Lord had already chosen the Gospel writers with their vocations, and given commission to the Apostles and disciples of the Lord, to proclaim the “Good News”. Not one set of good news, but THE “Good News”. And this was quite explicit in how and what was to be done.

Best wishes and have a nice day.

Yes sorry you are not Fran

The point of this is the the year 1260 in the Muslim religion is 1844 in the Christian calendar and that Daniel and Much more in Revelation, tell of events that would transpire for 1260 years.

Now it is a fact that the Muslim Religion started in the 600’s and for 1260 years was the religion of the Holy Land and beyond until a Revelation in 1260/1844 fulfilled all previous expectations.

You may not be aware but just as Jesus was given a farce of a Trial so was the Bab, this is one account; (Link follows, as there are about 9 accounts with inaccuracies)

Then he faced the Bab and asked: `These writings, some of which are in the style of the Qur’an, and others in the style of sermons and prayers, and which have been distributed among the people by your followers – are they yours, or have they just been attributed to you?’

Bab: `They are from God.’

NU: `Be that as it may, did you write them?’

Bab: `Yes, like the revelation of words from the Tree on Sinai.’

NU: `Now, here’s something I don’t understand. Who gave you this title of “Bab”?’

Bab: God.’

NU: `That’s very presumptuous of you. Exactly when did God bestow this “Goodnight” on you?’

The Bab grew angry and said: `You’re making fun of me.’

NU: `Well, let’s leave it there. What are you the Gate of?’

Bab: "I am the City of Knowledge and Ali is its Gate."’

NU: `You are the Gate of the City of Knowledge?’

Bab: `Yes. “And pass through the Gate, prostrating yourselves.”’

NU: `Are you also the Bab of prostration?’

Bab: `Yes.’

NU: `Since you are the Gate of the City of Knowledge, will you answer any question people may put to you?’

Bab: `Yes. You do not recognize me. I am that very person you have been awaiting for over one thousand years.'

Whereupon my father said: `Sayyid – you started by claiming to be the Gate of the Imam. Have you now become the hidden Lord of the Command in person?’

Bab: `Yes. I am he for whom you have been waiting since the very beginning of the Islamic revelation.'

Link - h-net.org/~bahai/bhpapers/babtrial.htm

If we now look at Revelation in the Bible with this above knowledge, we can see the Bible foretold of Muhammad and what happened to His Revelation and thus we have been foretold, not just about 1 religion after Christ, but also another 2 as well.

God Bless and regards Tony

 

[JonNC]

I have heard this, particularly in the Song of Songs.

Hmm. I was thinking more about 1 Maccabees and Daniel.

You know. Antiochus IV.



Jon

 

[eazyduzit]

My perspective is that God did not send Jesus to found a new religion. The religion of the OT was already perfect as it was given by God. It only was lacking a savior to fulfill it as the blood of bulls and goats could only cover sin and not put it away forever thus restoring a perfect relationship with a holy God and throwing open the gate of heaven for us.

Muhammad never claimed to be a savior. Jesus is still the one savior for all mankind.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

My perspective is that God did not send Jesus to found a new religion. The religion of the OT was already perfect as it was given by God. It only was lacking a savior to fulfill it as the blood of bulls and goats could only cover sin and not put it away forever thus restoring a perfect relationship with a holy God and throwing open the gate of heaven for us.

Muhammad never claimed to be a savior. Jesus is still the one savior for all mankind.

I make absolutely no claim to know the “mind” of God. I’d be nuts if I did. However, I do know God does not think discursively like we do. God is not complex. God is utterly simple. Jesus was not incarnated for one purpose and then put a contingency plan into effect. What happened was ordained from all eternity, so I believe that God did, indeed, intend for Jesus to found Christianity.

Perhaps I am not interpreting your post correctly. If I’m not, apologies.

 

[friardchips]

Yes sorry you are not Fran

Okay.

The point of this is the the year 1260 in the Muslim religion is 1844 in the Christian calendar and that Daniel and Much more in Revelation, tell of events that would transpire for 1260 years.

1. Please can you post on here the exact quote from Holy Scripture in the OT?

The point I am making - if there are dates in the OT that tie in - is that the OT came first. The Hebrew Scriptures were first by a long mile. The reason this is very important in this dialogue is because anything, literally anything, which came after the fulfillment of the Hebrew Scriptures that is in the NT, can be made to fit in with dates in the OT. You will notice that the NT does not rely on dates as the priority to prove that the OT is fulfilled by the NT but a far deeper significant relationship exists between the two that is mystically enlightening and could not have been ‘devised’.

Now it is a fact that the Muslim Religion started in the 600’s and for 1260 years was the religion of the Holy Land and beyond until a Revelation in 1260/1844 fulfilled all previous expectations.

You are resting too much, IMO, on a date.

You may not be aware but just as Jesus was given a farce of a Trial so was the Bab, this is one account; (Link follows, as there are about 9 accounts with inaccuracies)

Then he faced the Bab and asked: `These writings, some of which are in the style of the Qur’an, and others in the style of sermons and prayers, and which have been distributed among the people by your followers – are they yours, or have they just been attributed to you?’

Bab: `They are from God.’

NU: `Be that as it may, did you write them?’

Bab: `Yes, like the revelation of words from the Tree on Sinai.’

NU: `Now, here’s something I don’t understand. Who gave you this title of “Bab”?’

Bab: God.’

NU: `That’s very presumptuous of you. Exactly when did God bestow this “Goodnight” on you?’

The Bab grew angry and said: `You’re making fun of me.’

NU: `Well, let’s leave it there. What are you the Gate of?’

Bab: "I am the City of Knowledge and Ali is its Gate."’

NU: `You are the Gate of the City of Knowledge?’

Bab: `Yes. “And pass through the Gate, prostrating yourselves.”’

NU: `Are you also the Bab of prostration?’

Bab: `Yes.’

NU: `Since you are the Gate of the City of Knowledge, will you answer any question people may put to you?’

Bab: `Yes. You do not recognize me. I am that very person you have been awaiting for over one thousand years.'

Whereupon my father said: `Sayyid – you started by claiming to be the Gate of the Imam. Have you now become the hidden Lord of the Command in person?’

Bab: `Yes. I am he for whom you have been waiting since the very beginning of the Islamic revelation.'

Link - h-net.org/~bahai/bhpapers/babtrial.htm

If we now look at Revelation in the Bible with this above knowledge, we can see the Bible foretold of Muhammad and what happened to His Revelation and thus we have been foretold, not just about 1 religion after Christ, but also another 2 as well.

God Bless and regards Tony

All this was written after the OT and after the NT. You see? You say the above text is similar to the Qur’an? What text is this? Unless the above text was written before the OT Scriptures you suggest are relevant then this conversation above is irrelevant and obsolete.

IMO, anyway.

Best wishes.

F.C.

 

[kimg901]

Was God really that cruel to send His only son to die only to have an angel go tell some guy that the Word was corrupted by man only to have a man change it? I cant believe people think so little of God. One of 2 things happened here. 1) It was a demon that came as an angel or 2) muhammed made it all up. Your choice.

 

[Peter_Plato]

I make absolutely no claim to know the “mind” of God. I’d be nuts if I did.

1 Corinthians 2:6-16

Was Paul “nuts?”

 

[Peter_Plato]

The point of this is the the year 1260 in the Muslim religion is 1844 in the Christian calendar and that Daniel and Much more in Revelation, tell of events that would transpire for 1260 years.

Seems a little fishy for someone (let’s call him Bob) with access to the prophesies of Daniel and Revelation to come along and claim 1260 years after the founding of another religion (Islam) that he, Bob, is the fulfillment of prophesies vaguely referred to in those books as times and half-times purely because Bob happens to be alive 1260 years after some event not even vaguely referred to by the original prophesies.

 

[TonyBS]

Was God really that cruel to send His only son to die only to have an angel go tell some guy that the Word was corrupted by man only to have a man change it? I cant believe people think so little of God. One of 2 things happened here. 1) It was a demon that came as an angel or 2) muhammed made it all up. Your choice.

There is another choice God doeth as He willeth and we have got it wrong.

Yes people can choose what is obvious here

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

Seems a little fishy for someone (let’s call him Bob) with access to the prophesies of Daniel and Revelation to come along and claim 1260 years after the founding of another religion (Islam) that he, Bob, is the fulfillment of prophesies vaguely referred to in those books as times and half-times purely because Bob happens to be alive 1260 years after some event not even vaguely referred to by the original prophesies.

As with all of us you have the choice to look and decide, in fact the Bible compels us to do so

A bit of research will show you that nothing to do that the event had anything to do with the Bible and the 1260 prophesy being known. The fact that it happened then and there was Biblical

In fact the story started well before the Bab back at the beginning of the 1800’s with 2 schools of Islam in succession that were foretelling of the events to come.

God bless and Regards Tony

 

[Peter_Plato]

There is another choice God doeth as He willeth and we have got it wrong.

Yes people can choose what is obvious here

God Bless and Regards Tony

Well, if Islam has it correct and Allah controls everything, then “we have it wrong” would be logically impossible unless Allah wills us to “have it wrong.”

Is free will a tenet of Baha’i?

 

[TonyBS]

Well, if Islam has it correct and Allah controls everything, then “we have it wrong” would be logically impossible unless Allah wills us to “have it wrong.”

Is free will a tenet of Baha’i?

Yes free Will is Gods Bounty to us.

No it is not about being wrong, it is our ability to change our Frame of Reference using Free Will as there is only One God

Thus 2 + 2 will always be 4, but Christ had more to say unto us and knowledge was to increase

So the expression 2 + 2 using this encoding is:

plus 2 2 ≡ (λm.λn.λf.λx.m f (n f x)) (λf.λx.f (f x)) (λf.λx.f (f x))

Now β-reduce until you get the result:

plus 2 2 ≡ (λm.λn.λf.λx.m f (n f x)) (λf.λx.f (f x)) (λf.λx.f (f x))
↦ (λn.λf.λx.(λf.λx.f (f x)) f (n f x)) (λf.λx.f (f x))
↦ (λf.λx.(λf.λx.f (f x)) f ((λf.λx.f (f x)) f x))
↦ (λf.λx.(λx.f (f x)) ((λf.λx.f (f x)) f x))
↦ (λf.λx.(λx.f (f x)) ((λx.f (f x)) x))
↦ (λf.λx.(λx.f (f x)) (f (f x)))
↦ (λf.λx.f (f (f (f x))))
≡ 4.

Same answer another way of arriving at it which brings all Mankind under One God.

Of course this is just one simple but most likely very inadequate explanation

God Bless and Regards

 

[ericc]

Some Muslims point to Deuteronomy 18:15 as referring to Muhammad. I think most Christians see this passage as referring to Jesus as it says that the prophet is said to be from among the Israelites.

Definitely not from the Israelites. Muslims claim Mohammed is from the line of Ishmael, the son of Abram/Hagar. The Israelite line is from Abram/Sarai.=>Isaac=>Jacob