E
EasterJoy
Guest
I can’t disagree…although I’m thinking that only God could describe Himself as simple.
- Status
F
fakename
Guest
Well again we have to say He is simple analogically -that is, affirming the perfections of simplicity without the defects. The same way we say that He is wise.
M
mcteague
Guest
In certain ancient cultures after a great battle the conquered woman were all raped and the men were all castrated. Call me sexist if you want, but I think the woman got the better of that that situation. Rape is a terrible crime. And it is certainly one of the worst things that can happen to someone. But it is not the worst. Being murdered or castrated is worse in my view. But it is still a terrible thing. It is a bit like asking is killing two people worse than killing one. I suppose so. But really what’s the difference?
T
thistle
Guest
QUOTEPsalm 5:7 “Thou hatest all the workers of iniquity: thou wilt destroy all that speak a lie.”
Two Covenants; Same God. The Word of God, as the Lord Jesus Christ, didn’t suddenly become a soft pillow after Time Eternal of being an awesome, righteous, and just King.
Proverbs 6:16-16: “Six things the Lord God hateth, and a seventh He detesteth”…
I’ll leave you to read what those are, but anyway: see that God hates. His own Holy Scriptures say this plainly. Remember that “Church teaching” isn’t just what bishops and the Pope teach, but the Magisterium, Tradition, and Scripture combined. The Word says it; the Holy Spirit of God spoke it. What more is there?
Who taught you that? It sounds so wishy-washy! I mean no offense, but come on.
God’s hate is naturally not congruous with our human ‘hatred’. It’s our way of understanding His Justice.
It seems that way… according to the Bible. Psalm 96(96):10 “The Lord loves those who hate evil”. God is just, not a wimpy “let’s all get along” 21st century type (not necessarily you, but you know the type I mean).
Who taught you that? It sounds so wishy-washy! I mean no offense, but come on.
UNQUOTE
Please be specific. What “teaching” are you referring to?
D
didymus
Guest
And societies may make the make the scarring worse.
Imagine the case of St Maria Goretti if her rapist had been successful in violating her instead of killing her. She would have been condemned to life as an outcast.
In some Muslim countries victims are stoned because it is assumed they were at fault.
At least in our society a lot of progress has been made helping the victims.
F
formerlysure
Guest
I am a rape survivor and am grateful I was not murdered. I cooperated with my rapist in the hopes of my life being spared, so from a victims perspective can tell you that when faced with the prospects of both rape and murder - one was certainly happening, the other feared, I considered murder worse.
That said, the rape changed me in ways that many years later are still a struggle for me. It was a factor in my divorce, and a factor in my having a great deal of difficulty accepting failed relationships with men prior to my marriage. It made me a very fearful person and ate at my self-esteem, and had many physical repurcussions as well.
From a legal perspective (and I work in the legal field), and for determining punishment, we must look at how the criminal act impacts society as a whole and not just the individual targetted victim. Both rape and murder, I feel, have a similar impact on the community. However, people who murder do not necessarily re-offend. They may murder in a moment as part of a robbery out of fear, or out of a gang activity though they do not really want to be murderers and do not get a particular “charge” out of being a murderer. Many murderers will never murder again. On the other hand, rapists - sex offenders in general - have proven near impossible to rehabilitate. For this reason, I think perhaps punishments for rapists - prison terms - should be longer in many instances, often for life.
But for the purpose of God’s law, I don’t think we should quibble over it - one crime kills the spirit of the person, the other the body.
That said, the rape changed me in ways that many years later are still a struggle for me. It was a factor in my divorce, and a factor in my having a great deal of difficulty accepting failed relationships with men prior to my marriage. It made me a very fearful person and ate at my self-esteem, and had many physical repurcussions as well.
From a legal perspective (and I work in the legal field), and for determining punishment, we must look at how the criminal act impacts society as a whole and not just the individual targetted victim. Both rape and murder, I feel, have a similar impact on the community. However, people who murder do not necessarily re-offend. They may murder in a moment as part of a robbery out of fear, or out of a gang activity though they do not really want to be murderers and do not get a particular “charge” out of being a murderer. Many murderers will never murder again. On the other hand, rapists - sex offenders in general - have proven near impossible to rehabilitate. For this reason, I think perhaps punishments for rapists - prison terms - should be longer in many instances, often for life.
But for the purpose of God’s law, I don’t think we should quibble over it - one crime kills the spirit of the person, the other the body.
F
fakename
Guest
I think murder is worse than rape since untimely death w/o confession could send you to hell. Rape won’t and since everything is to be judged according to how it gets us to our last end, we should consider murder worse since it is more an obstacle to achieving virtue than rape.
F
formerlysure
Guest
Fake name, I see your point but don’t forget - the ambition of the criminal to get to heaven is only one measure. There is also the victim to consider and all those she loves. When a man rapes a woman, he also attacks her spouse and all the other people she relates to…her children, her parents - rape invades the very fiber of a woman. And this can turn her away from God as well - it was a contributing factor for me to turn away from God when I did for many years - I thought He didn’t care and had abandoned me to let that happen to me.
I would hope a rapist wouldn’t think they get a free pass to heaven without absolution for such a horrifying and violent crime.
I would hope a rapist wouldn’t think they get a free pass to heaven without absolution for such a horrifying and violent crime.
M
mcteague
Guest
Sorry, but I don’t think you understood Fake name’s post. He/she is saying that murder is worse because the victim might die without confessing their sins. Which FN believes might send them to hell.
Personally I think that is a rather sad vision of God. I mean you would really have to be a complete butthead to send murder victims to hell because they missed getting to confession. But this is what FN seems to believe and what they have written.
S
silentstar
Guest
Actually, that is not true anymore. What does that to people is not the rape(s) itself, it is the absence of appropriate treatment, care, and support. And I have been through multiple rapes including a gang rape by 5 people when I was 12, in which I was almost killed, the person who was going to kill me lost his nerve at the last minute for reasons I think I will never understand. My family did not support therapy so I got into it a few years later when I was 20 and that delay was long enough to make things harder but treatment makes the difference. I would much rather be alive.
F
formerlysure
Guest
Thanks for the clarification - yeah, I can’t imagine a murder victim would go to hell for no confessing their sins as their life is taken. Has the Church taken a position on this? I know the position was reversed on the status of infants who die prior to baptism, formerly said to go to purgatory - I would think this situation would be similar, would it not?
T
thistle
Guest
First, anyone (murder victim or not) who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell. That is a Church teaching.
Second, the Church has NOT reversed its position on unbaptised infants. Limbo for Infants has NEVER been a teaching of the Church. It was only ever a theological hypothesis.
J
jsaldar
Guest
They are both crimes against humanity punishable by an eternity in hell.
Only on earth can you get away with commiting murder such as we saw today.
Only on earth can you get away with commiting murder such as we saw today.
F
formerlysure
Guest
Thistle, perhaps you or someone else can elaborate - few people have the opportunity to confess immediately prior to death, and most of us have minor failings pretty often - if I were to lie to my mother and not confess and then die, what happens to my soul?
And what of the children I lost to miscarriage - obviously they could not be baptised but per my own Church, they are human beings from the time of conception - can I assume these innocents would go straight to heaven?
And what of the murder victim who has been robbed of the chance to make things right with God? I’d like to understand this better if someone doesn’t mind explaining further, please.
And what of the children I lost to miscarriage - obviously they could not be baptised but per my own Church, they are human beings from the time of conception - can I assume these innocents would go straight to heaven?
And what of the murder victim who has been robbed of the chance to make things right with God? I’d like to understand this better if someone doesn’t mind explaining further, please.
M
mcteague
Guest
I think it would be best to rely on common sense and your own intelligence than thistle or anyone else. I think we can assume the God has a heart and a brain.
The people who wrote these rules like you must confess your sins or face the possibility of hell were men not God. They might not have considered every possible situation.
These letter of the law people actually commit a great heresy. Augustine and Thomas and the others were men, not God. They may have been wrong about somethings.
I am sure that if there is a God, he would not make the innocent suffer because of some technicality.
Perhaps my words don’t mean to much to you because I don’t call my self Catholic. But I ask you to trust your own heart and not trust these doctornerial obsessed people. They can only make you suffer needlessly. And that would be a terrible thing.
M
Mark_David
Guest
I believe St. Augustine was the first to mention Limbo. And I’d wager that the Church leans more towards rejecting its existence than not. Think of abortion, miscarriage, etc - it’s impossible to baptize an unborn child, but nothing is impossible for God.
As to whether murder is worse than rape: both are among the gravest sins, so it’s an awkward question to answer. Personally, if I had to choose, I’d say murder was worse, because one could survive rape and become holier and wiser - while if one is murdered, they could find themselves in hell and thus have no more chances for redemption.
T
thistle
Guest
Limbo for Infants has never been a Church teaching. The Church is neutral on this and allows Catholics to believe it or not. The Church does not know what happens to unbaptised infants. That’s why the Church teaches such infants are left to God’s mercy.
In the case of the unbaptised my personal belief is that God shows mercy to them and they are saved. However, that is not a Church teaching.
T
thistle
Guest
Venial sins do not have to be confessed and if you die with only venial sins on you rsoul you are saved.
However, it is a different story for mortal sins. Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell. This is the Church teaching and there are no exceptions.
How is a murder victim different from a car accident victim or a heart attack victim? Just because somebody is taken suddenly does not absolve them of any mortal sins. Everyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell. They have not been robbed of a chance to make thing right. Commiting a mortal sin is rejecting God’s love and if you die in that state you condemn yourself.
C
centurionguard
Guest
Murder Kills Life. Rape Kills the Soul.
Why not ask any Rape or Incest Victim how they feel?
Given the Aftermath and horrid painful stigma of my own Gang Rape and Torture at Gunpoint and having to deal with it for over three decades I have often contemplated looking back in hindsight that I would have strongly preferred death or being murdered rather than have gone through what I had to endure in my life. Such horrid painful memories never go away.
However; if I have learned any minimal wisdom from my beloved God.
Suffering and Carrying a Cross for Greater Love of Imitating Jesus Life who made Himself a Victim for all of us at the very moment of His Holy Birth to Crucifixion on the Cross and what Jesus taught us in between Cradle to Cross is the greatest exemplification of what our own sufferings in life should model and imitate.
Perhaps this says all for some:
Why not ask any Rape or Incest Victim how they feel?
Given the Aftermath and horrid painful stigma of my own Gang Rape and Torture at Gunpoint and having to deal with it for over three decades I have often contemplated looking back in hindsight that I would have strongly preferred death or being murdered rather than have gone through what I had to endure in my life. Such horrid painful memories never go away.
However; if I have learned any minimal wisdom from my beloved God.
Suffering and Carrying a Cross for Greater Love of Imitating Jesus Life who made Himself a Victim for all of us at the very moment of His Holy Birth to Crucifixion on the Cross and what Jesus taught us in between Cradle to Cross is the greatest exemplification of what our own sufferings in life should model and imitate.
Perhaps this says all for some:
S
SteveGC
Guest
I don’t think this person is asking thistle or anyone else here because they think they have, in and of themselves, all the right answers. I think the idea is that, because this is Catholic Answers, and because this person may, in some small way, recognize the authority that the Catholic Church has in all matters Christian, that asking specific Catholics on here who tend to be articulate and knowledgeable about Catholic teaching is a prudent method of grasping some of the more difficult theological concepts.
Just a thought.
- Status