Is my time up in the Roman Catholic Church?

[myfavoritmartin]

Do you believe the Jews worship the same God as Christians?

God Bless,
Michael

NO.
Jews do not worship-trust-believe in the same God because they deny revelation as to what God has revealed about Himself through Jesus the Christ.

 

[Mickey]

There is only one God, yes, but have you ever heard of universalism. Universalism is the new age doctrine that says we all worship the same deity and that differences are merely apparent, they are illusions. This is not Christianity!

Correct.

The oneness of God is one aspect of who he is, but not the only one.

Yes.

What has the Light to do with the darkness?

I agree with all that you say, Grace. I am so sorry and sad that you had to hear those words come from a man who received the sacrament of Holy Orders.

While Muslim faithful may hold Jesus to be a great prophet, their true endtime figure is the Mahdi , who will bring (Islamic) justice to the earth, but who in no way participates in divine life or being (the very idea is blasphemous!). This, together with the related point that the quranic image of Allah totally excludes any form of trinitarian theology, makes it evident that Allah, as proclaimed and experienced by persons of Islamic faith, is simply not the God known and worshiped by Christians.
http://www.oca.org/CHRIST-life-article.asp?SID=6&ID=140&MONTH=October&YEAR=2007

 

[GraceDK]

Correct.

Yes.

I agree with all that you say, Grace. I am so sorry and sad that you had to hear those words come from a man who received the sacrament of Holy Orders.

While Muslim faithful may hold Jesus to be a great prophet, their true endtime figure is the Mahdi , who will bring (Islamic) justice to the earth, but who in no way participates in divine life or being (the very idea is blasphemous!). This, together with the related point that the quranic image of Allah totally excludes any form of trinitarian theology, makes it evident that Allah, as proclaimed and experienced by persons of Islamic faith, is simply not the God known and worshiped by Christians.
http://www.oca.org/CHRIST-life-article.asp?SID=6&ID=140&MONTH=October&YEAR=2007

Thanks Mikey… You encourage me.
I start to feel I must be explaining my reasoning poorly, for what makes so much sense to me, seems not to be understood by others… except from ByzantineWolf who however disputes that Jews worship the True God, which I think is a grave error of his.
Your quote in the end makes perfect sense to me.
As I have said all the time: I prefer a way of theological reasoning where we mean what we say and don’t make concepts void.
Trying to reconsile Islam with Christianity just because both have millions of adherents dont make sense to me. I find the Koran to be so much more antichristian than other religious books, precisely because it used Judeo-Christian concepts and persons and distort them until we have to do with some completely other religion.

 

[mikeledes]

No doubt about it.
If you have studied my reasoning you know how it goes.
God is Spirit and Author of Revelation.
We are called to discern the spirits.
Jews worship the God who revealed himself in the pillar of fire and the cloud, He is the God that walked with the chosen people in Sinai, anointed OT-kings, dwelt in the Holy Temple of Jerusalem and who inspired the Old Testament. This is the Spirit that Jews call upon and worship. They are not rejected as the first covenant people. if they were and remained idolaters God would not have had a everlasting covenant with them in the first place.
Here we can say they don’t have the full picture. But they have not distorted the picture of God and made it into someone else like Muhammad did.
If we say the Jews dont worship the same God as we do, then we have to say that Jesus of Nazareth did not worship the True God either, and that would be nonsense. He was among brothers and part of the house of Israel.

But they deny the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and they won’t even consider Him a prophet?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[myfavoritmartin]

But they deny the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and they won’t even consider Him a prophet?

God Bless,
Michael

Mike…
There is salvation in none other than Jesus the Christ…

They have been set aside until this prophecy has been fulfilled…
Zechariah 12:10
“And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: **and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.” **

So if they know not the Son they know not the Father, until He restores this remnant.

 

[mikeledes]

NO.
Jews do not worship-trust-believe in the same God because they deny revelation as to what God has revealed about Himself through Jesus the Christ.

Hi Simon!

Romans 10:2

2For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Mickey]

Thanks Mikey… You encourage me.
I start to feel I must be explaining my reasoning poorly, for what makes so much sense to me, seems not to be understood by others… except from ByzantineWolf who however disputes that Jews worship the True God, which I think is a grave error of his.
Your quote in the end makes perfect sense to me.
As I have said all the time: I prefer a way of theological reasoning where we mean what we say and don’t make concepts void.
Trying to reconsile Islam with Christianity just because both have millions of adherents dont make sense to me. I find the Koran to be so much more antichristian than other religious books, precisely because it used Judeo-Christian concepts and persons and distort them until we have to do with some completely other religion.

Again, I agree. I also agree regarding the Jews.

From the same article:

This is a point that should be obvious. Those of us who have had the opportunity to visit a synagogue (at least an Orthodox one) or pray with a pious Jewish family have likely sensed and appreciated the strong continuity that exists between the Hebrew Scriptures (our Old Testament) and Christian tradition. This is not the place to argue the point, but to me it seems clear that Orthodox Jews and Orthodox Christians (not to mention many other Jews and Christians of other theological tendencies) do indeed worship the same God. The content of their respective faiths is, of course, very different. While pious Jews await the coming of the Messiah, Christians are convinced – they know in the depths of their soul – that Messiah has already come. He has come in the person of Jesus of Nazareth, whom we also believe and confess to be the eternal Son of God, one of the Holy Trinity. This is by no means a minor difference. But it does not alter the fact that the God of Jesus, the disciples and ourselves is one and the same as the God of Moses, Isaiah and John the Baptist.
oca.org/CHRIST-life-article.asp?SID=6&ID=140&MONTH=October&YEAR=2007

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Paul never said they didn’t worship the true God. I quote again, “What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you”. You are yet to respond as to what Paul means by “this” in the above statement.

The “this” refers to Paul’s specification of what God it is. Paul is saying, “You know that unknown God you worship? I come from Him. Now He says it’s time to worship Him for who He is.” I already showed that with the quote I gave. They were worshiping a God, but not the God. They did not worship the Trinitarian God.

Also, remember they were worshiping other idols at the same time, with one alter to an unknown God. They didn’t know who this God was, but neither do agnostics who use the word “God” but do not necessarily refer to the Christian God. Unless we are going to say agnostics worship the same God we do too

Now tell me what in this conversation supports your earlier statement- “Justin, himself a Greek convert, turns that argument on its head and shows, in fact, the Greeks have only a vague concept of God, and do not believe in the true God.”

Justin showed that the Greek concept of “God” was much more vague than what the Jews and Christians believed, and not compliant to their belief. If one reads all of Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho, especially his works involving Greek philosophy, one can easily come to this conclusion. I can only guess, because you asked for a direct quote and seem to only be working with what I give you, that you have not read any of Justin Martyr’s works, nor are making any attempt to.

Paul never said they didn’t worship the true God. I quote again, “What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you”. You are yet to respond as to what Paul means by “this” in the above statement. To me the verse makes very clear that Paul affrimed that they were indeed worshipping the one God. Paul sought to convert them in order to bring them to the fullness of the truth about this God. Although they worshipped the one true God, they hardly knew anything about him. That does not mean that they were worshipping another God.

The “this” refers to Paul’s specification of what God it is. Paul is saying, “You know that unknown God you worship? I come from Him. Now He says it’s time to worship Him for who He is.” I already showed that with the quote I gave. They were worshiping a God, but not the God. They did not worship the Trinitarian God.

Also, remember they were worshiping other idols at the same time, with one alter to an unknown God. They didn’t know who this God was, but neither do agnostics who use the word “God” but do not necessarily refer to the Christian God. Unless we are going to say agnostics worship the same God we do too

Now tell me what in this conversation supports your earlier statement- “Justin, himself a Greek convert, turns that argument on its head and shows, in fact, the Greeks have only a vague concept of God, and do not believe in the true God.”

Justin showed that the Greek concept of “God” was much more vague than what the Jews and Christians believed, and not compliant to their belief. If one reads all of Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho, especially his works involving Greek philosophy, one can easily come to this conclusion. I can only guess, because you asked for a direct quote and seem to only be working with what I give you, that you have not read any of Justin Martyr’s works, nor are making any attempt to.

But again, that is not something that they are doing (and neither will they do it, because Paradise is not like that).

Thank you for admitting that the God of the Muslims does not believe in the same Paradise as the God of the Christians - clearly, they can’t be the same God, unless God contradicts Himself.

Can you tell me which of the above points refer to Muslims either here or in their version of Paradise? You accuse me of picking and choosing Paul’s teachings, and what are you yourself doing?

You forgot several more afterward, which include deceit, murder, strife, and depravity. Tell me how a religion which condones attacking non-believers, beating wives, voluptuous virgins in Paradise, wine drinking in Paradise, lying when it benefits you, saying you like someone when in reality you curse them in your heart, and whose founders persecuted Jews and Christians in the Arabian peninsula could possibly come from the same God that Paul preached.

Were the teachings coming from God, or were they coming from a deceitful man who claimed they came from God. It is not the God of Muslims who promised such a paradise, rather it was Mohammad who claimed that the one God made such a promise. Makes a whole lot of difference.

EXACTLY. Mohammad gave a false message from an “angel of light,” and presented the Muslims a gospel contradictory.

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. [2 Cor 11:13-15]

If Mohammad’s message does not come from God, his way of worship does not come from God, and his lessons regarding theology do not come from God…then it’s obvious that the Muslims do not worship the Trinitarian God.

Likewise, they do not worship the Trinitarian God because they do not accept the Trinity nor the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, all of which were important tenants to Christ and the early apostles.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Hi Simon!

Romans 10:2

2For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

God Bless,
Michael

They fail to recognise Him…

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

 

[GraceDK]

But they deny the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and they won’t even consider Him a prophet?

God Bless,
Michael

The Bible says: Salvation is from the Jews,
They overlooked the Messiah. They did not overlook everything about God… .
If they were idoalters all together then the New Testament would not call them the olive tree.
Who walked with the people in Sinai? Who spke to the prophets? If you don’t admit that this was the Lord then what do you believe?
The Jews still worship God at the Wailing Wall, their primary sanctuary… the only bit left of the Old Temple of Solomo. This temple was planned by God… unlike the Kaba which has no real argument for existence in tradition.
Christ came to make God fully known as the Father. He did not com to say: “the God you have been worshipping is false”.
They would now have full knowlege… building on the knowlege already there that God had given them as His chosen people.

 

[mikeledes]

Mike…
There is salvation in none other than Jesus the Christ…

They have been set aside until this prophecy has been fulfilled…
Zechariah 12:10
“And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: **and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.” **

So if they know not the Son they know not the Father, until He restores this remnant.

I agree that salvation is through Christ. But what does “worship” mean? I don’t think to say that someone worships God is the same thing as saying that person is assured salvation.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

They fail to recognise Him…

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

Again, I think that there is a difference between saying someone “worships God” and saying that person is saved.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

The Bible says: Salvation is from the Jews,
They overlooked the Messiah. They did not overlook everything about God… .
If they were idoalters all together then the New Testament would not call them the olive tree.
Who walked with the people in Sinai? Who spke to the prophets? If you don’t admit that this was the Lord then what do you believe?
The Jews still worship God at the Wailing Wall, their primary sanctuary… the only bit left of the Old Temple of Solomo. This temple was planned by God… unlike the Kaba which has no real argument for existence in tradition.
Christ came to make God fully known as the Father. He did not com to say: “the God you have been worshipping is false”.
They would now have full knowlege… building on the knowlege already there that God had given them as His chosen people.

But they deny that Jesus is God or that He was even sent by God. Isn’t this a “distorted” view of God?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Here is the bottom line and its one Paul rails on the jews for, is that they have made their nation and their security as their identity it has become an idol or false God unto them.
JW’s and Mormons alike worship Jesus…NOT the true Jesus though. No difference.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

You never said they were pagans, and I never said that you said they were pagans. But that is the** implication **of your statement.

Again, that’s a false dilemma. As I already pointed out, Arius and Nestorius were heretics but not pagans. Martin Luther is considered by some to be a heretic but was not a pagan. Believing in a wrong belief does not make them a pagan, and to suggest that’s what my argument implies is misrepresentation.

You have also not responded to the point I made in regard to the promises made by God to the Jews. Do you not know that God is going to bring all the Jews back to Israel and restore them and then pour out his spirit upon them? If the Jews deny God and worship another God, then our God will certainly not keep this promise with them, will he?

Please respond with the relevant quote from scripture.

And their religion teaches a different Christ. Does it not? In order to reject the real Christ, you must first know the true Christ. Embracing that false version of Christ, doesn’t mean rejection of the true version of Christ, because they have never known the true version of Christ.

By embracing a false Christ you reject the true Christ. Many Montanists did not understand the true Christ because of their false teachers, nevertheless they were condemned as heretics. This also doesn’t hide the fact that, whether or not they know Christ, the very fact their religion teaches a false version of Christ shows that it does not come from God. If it does not come from God, it cannot be the God of Christianity that they worship. Otherwise, we might as well say the Manichaeans worshiped the same God, or the Mormons as well.

And I reply back again in the same way I replied before, they had a false idea about God.

Responding to a counterpoint by repeating an argument without demonstrating it is not a real argument

Not contradictory at all, I showed you a direct, scriptural quote from St. Paul and also from St. Peter.

And I’ve already pointed out those are taking out of context. If it was OK for the Gentiles and non-believing Jews to worship a more vague concept of God, why did the apostles go and preach? Why did they try to convert people? Why were all the Gentiles you’ve name-dropped converted if they were OK in the first place? Furthermore, why did Jesus die on the cross if His Incarnation, let alone His death on the cross, were not important?

Oh, I am distorting the text huh?

Calm down.

Can you tell me which text I have distorted? My specific point is that Cornelius was worshipping the same God whom we worship (Acts 10:2). If he was worshipping a different God, then you have to conclude that the angel that was sent to him was from a false God and therefore a demon. The reason he converted is not because he was worshipping a different God, but rather because he came to know the fullness of the truth about that God.

Cornelius sought the real God, just as Abraham did before God spoke to him. His prayers were answered by the real God. By contrast, the “Gabriel” that Mohammad knew did not do this. If it had been the real Gabriel, Mohammad might have been brought to the gospel. Instead, Mohammad taught a heretical belief that blasphemed the name of Christ and therefore God.

The differences between Cornelius and Mohammad are many-fold: Cornelius sought god, Mohammad simply meditated; Cornelius was visited by a true messenger of God, Mohammad was visited by a demon; Cornelius embraced Christ and became a Christian, Mohammad accepted heresy and became a cult leader; Cornelius joined the Church, Mohammad led many astray from the true path. The God of Mohammad is not the God of the Christians. His followers worship the God he did. Therefore, one cannot say they worship the same God. One begins to wonder how Cornelius is relevant to the conversation

But you cannot ignore what Peter said in the next verse “in **every nation **any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him”. How can people of other nations fear him if they don’t know him? Can you answer this question. If they are worshipping a different God, then they fear a different God, not our God. If you can answer this question, please do.

You need to read the full context of what Peter is saying. Again, he is reiterating what he realized through revelation, that God is now granting salvation to the Gentiles, and fulfilling Christ’s command to “make disciples of all nations.” After saying that he goes into detail about the life of Christ, telling the Gentiles exactly what he told the Jews: you know this Christ, you heard of His preaching, you’ve heard what He did, now it’s time to bear the fruits.

But as I already pointed out before, Cornelius embraced Christ and accepted Trinitarian thinking. God worked through him not to prove it’s OK what you believe, but that God can move men’s hearts towards Him, and to show the Jewish apostles that the Gentiles may now receive Christ’s teachings as well. By contrast, Islam is a separate religion with separate beliefs and a denial of the Trinity and the Cross - something Peter preached here to Cornelius, and which Cornelius accepted.

Please show me what St. John Damascene had to say. We should also not forget what our learned saints Paul and Peter had to say! His words should be consistent with the words of Peter and Paul.

If you wish to see an example of patristic thought regarding Islam, see the link below:

orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

 

[CentralFLJames]

Again, I think that there is a difference between saying someone “worships God” and saying that person is saved.

God Bless,
Michael

Agree - and we know from Cain and Abel that while both believed in “God” only one had an acceptable sacrifice!

James

 

[GraceDK]

But they deny that Jesus is God or that He was even sent by God. Isn’t this a “distorted” view of God?

God Bless,
Michael

I’d rather say a view that lacks.
The God of the OT is the True God. This is the God the Jews worship. This has not changed, even though they did not recognize the Messiah.
Know a God by His Revelation.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I agree that salvation is through Christ. But what does “worship” mean? I don’t think to say that someone worships God is the same thing as saying that person is assured salvation.

God Bless,
Michael

So would you be suggesting that if they place faith in the Almighty God and worship Him w/o worshipping/recognising the Son as the Messiah they would be saved and it would account as righteousness unto them like in the OT?

 

[Mickey]

I’d rather say a view that lacks.
The God of the OT is the True God. This is the God the Jews worship. This has not changed, even though they did not recognize the Messiah.
Know a God by His Revelation.

Amen.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I’d rather say a view that lacks.
The God of the OT is the True God. This is the God the Jews worship. This has not changed, even though they did not recognize the Messiah.
Know a God by His Revelation.

if thats the case though, why aren’t those Jews who place faith in God almighty saved then, as they were in the OC? if they are saved that is contradictory to the numerous statements made by the apostle John.