Is my time up in the Roman Catholic Church?

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So would you be suggesting that if they place faith in the Almighty God and worship Him w/o worshipping/recognising the Son as the Messiah they would be saved and it would account as righteousness unto them like in the OT?
I’m not suggesting that. I don’t see a probelm saying that someone who is not Christian “worships God” because that is not specifically about the state of a person’s soul. Even Paul himself said:

Acts 17:23

**23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:
Code:
  TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you**:

This he said to idolatrous/polytheistic Greeks.

God Bless,
Michael
 
I’d rather say a view that lacks.
The God of the OT is the True God. This is the God the Jews worship. This has not changed, even though they did not recognize the Messiah.
Know a God by His Revelation.
If they deny that Jesus is God, how can they worship the same God that we worship?

God Bless,
Michael
 
The “this” refers to Paul’s specification of what God it is. Paul is saying, “You know that unknown God you worship? I come from Him. Now He says it’s time to worship Him for who He is.” I already showed that with the quote I gave. They were worshiping a God, but not the God. They did not worship the Trinitarian God.

Also, remember they were worshiping other idols at the same time, with one alter to an unknown God. They didn’t know who this God was, but neither do agnostics who use the word “God” but do not necessarily refer to the Christian God. Unless we are going to say agnostics worship the same God we do too 🙂
Agnostics don’t know if there is a God, so obviously they do not worship Him. But Paul clearly says:

** Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you**:

He does not make a distinction between a God and the God.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Does your Church teach that the Jews worship a false God?
No. But if we’re going to say that a person that does not acknowledge the Trinity does not worship God, then that would include the Jews.

God Bless,
Michael
 
No. But if we’re going to say that a person that does not acknowledge the Trinity does not worship God, then that would include the Jews.
Okay. So then you are trying to make a point that the Jews and the Muslims both worship the same God as the Christians—is that accurate?
 
What differentiates the partial revelation that God gave the Jews from the fabricated understanding of God that Mohammad stole from the Jews (and Christians) is that GOD choose to bind the Jews through a covenant relationship to that particular partial revelation of Himself even as he later promises to do other things yet to come.

But I don’t believe that Mohammad professes to have a covenantal relationship with God ANYWHERE in the words attributed to him in the Koran?? Anyone know of one?

In fact the only “somewhat” covenant we may ascribe to them is through Abraham in the Judeo-Christian OT accounts. Here God promises Hagar, Sarah’s handmaid (contrast with Mary as the handmaid of the Lord), that He will make her offspring (through Ishmael) a great nation. But this at best is a “covenant-temporal” - a promise for greatness in the “here and now” and Hagar remains subordinate to the authority of Sarah as her handmaid living in separation – yet receiving secondary blessings through that relationship. But this is a promise and is not made with respect to grace and to eternity as we have with God’s covenant with the Jews through Abraham’s son Isaac.

In fact God tells us explicitly in the OT that His People WILL NOT be through the descendants of slaves but through Issac. So the Mohammedans in fact do not seem to have any covenant relationship to God that binds them to a partial revelation of Himself.
Lacking a specific covenant, with respect to eternal beatitude they have only two options: 1) God’s Mercy and 2) Convert to and embrace the new universal covenant of Christianity (which their religion forbids and condems as polytheistic). I feel pity for the common Muslim who is trapped between ancient rejection of OT covenant and disallowed to be tolerated among his fellows under pain of death to become Christian. How diabolical!

We can speculate on what God’s purpose in permitting this is - and I do have a lot of though about this. But if the Mohammedans themselves do not claim to have a covenant with God then how can they worship Him in Spirit and Truth? Cain only gained rejection through an unacceptable and “dutiful” worship. What of the Muslims?

Surely the Catechism must be right about God’s Plan having provisions for all the disenfranchised of the word or else God would never have permit Cain’s descendants to live. Clearly God’s goal is to proclaim His greatness by reconciling all ancient wrongs - on His terms.

More evidence that the Muslims have no covenant is seen in the following verses:

Here is the covenant promise:

*Genesis 17:19-21
But God said, “No, but Sarah (previously “Sarai”) your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 “As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21 “**But My covenant **I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year.” *

Ishmael’s lineage is destined to “greatness” in the here-and-now but has no OT covenant - and it seems that the poor Ishmaelites are cut off under this OT covenantal revelation of God.

The very troubling thing to me about this whole topic area is that superficially it does have elements suggestive of double-predestiny since there is no covenantal relationship with the Ishmaelites by the OT covenant and limited view of God. But the Ishmaelites are not alone - there there are other’s than just Abraham’s descendants. What of these heathen Gentiles? 😉

Of course the Catechism is correct in acknowledging that God ‘Has A Plan’ for all humanity. But I do frankly think it was “pandering” to the large numbers of Muslims by explicitly calling them out as being “First” in that plan since EVERYONE is in God’s Plan. I think the Church is simply saying that monotheists, even with imperfect light, are an order of magnitude closer to God and true worship than are heathens, pagans, and atheists who are indifferent to God. But in so saying the church has certainly raised a lot of eyebrows among the faithful who see Muslims as more dangerous to us than these others. And this I think is the key error. Are Muslims closer to The Truth than these other ungodly and indifferent hedonistic people who live among us as secularists and should we not also be calling them out with special mention? In mentioning the Muslims it does brings symmetry to the OT lineage by tying it all to Abraham. But why make Muslims “first” in God’s Plan for the other peoples and simply go all the way back to Adam and leave it as “God has a plan for all fallen men”?

*Catechism 841
The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the **first place *amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day." 330

James
 
Okay. So then you are trying to make a point that the Jews and
the Muslims both worship the same God as the Christians—is that accurate?Pretty much.

Their beliefs and teachings fall short of the fullness of truth, but the starting point is the same according to the Old Testament.
 
Okay. So then you are trying to make a point that the Jews and the Muslims both worship the same God as the Christians—is that accurate?
Pretty much.

Their beliefs and teachings fall short of the fullness of truth, but the starting point is the same according to the Old Testament.
 
But I don’t believe that Mohammad professes to have a covenantal relationship with God ANYWHERE in the words attributed to him in the Koran?? Anyone know of one?
No. Because it is not there. And I am very disappointed that the CCC and Nostra Aetate attempt to pander to Mohammedism. 😦

 
No. Because it is not there. And I am very disappointed that the CCC and Nostra Aetate attempt to pander to Mohammedism. 😦
Why do you think it is pandering?

There is only one God. No matter how immature or erroneous our notion of God, if we say we worship him, are we not all worshiping the same God?
 
Pretty much.

Their beliefs and teachings fall short of the fullness of truth, but the starting point is the same according to the Old Testament.
I am sorry my good friend. But I can never be convinced that Mohammedism worships the same God as the the Christian Church. Their true endtime figure is Mahdi.
 
I am sorry my good friend. But I can never be convinced that Mohammedism worships the same God as the the Christian Church. Their true endtime figure is
Mahdi.That may be the case, but the point is that right or wrong Islam claims their roots in Ishmael. The fact is that that is more properly applied to Arabs in general (at least so far as I can tell) and like you, I do not agree with (nor does the Catholic Church) the Islamic concepts of God. Judaism has far more in common with Christianity than Islam.

There may be some truths presented, (we’re back to the stopped clock concept I guess…), but as I said, they lack the fullness of truth. 🤷
 
I am sorry my good friend. But I can never be convinced that Mohammedism worships the same God as the the Christian Church. Their true endtime figure is Mahdi.
That may be the case, but the point is that right or wrong Islam claims their roots in Ishmael. The fact is that that is more properly applied to Arabs in general (at least so far as I can tell) and like you, I do not agree with (nor does the Catholic Church) the Islamic concepts of God. Judaism has far more in common with Christianity than Islam.

There may be some truths presented, (we’re back to the stopped clock concept I guess…), but as I said, they lack the fullness of truth. 🤷
 
Agnostics don’t know if there is a God, so obviously they do not worship Him. But Paul clearly says:

** Therefore, the One whom you worship **without knowing, Him I proclaim to you:

He does not make a distinction between a God and the God.

God Bless,
Michael
I’ve already answered that argument. One must read the full context of Paul’s speech.

“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.” [Acts 17:29-31; emphasis mine]

Therefore he does make a distinction between the various concepts of God. Why else would he seek to convert them? Why didn’t he just say, “Oh, OK, you believe in a kind of God. All right, off ya go.” He doesn’t. He stays in Athens and preaches to them Christ resurrected. Why? Because Christ resurrected is the Christian God, and the path to salvation. Anything else is incorrect. This is why Paul makes a distinction between these two Gods.

“Hey, you know that ‘unknown God’ you believe in?” he asks them, as a way to open conversation, “Guess what - I come from Him, He has made His presence known, and He commands you all to repent and come onto Him.” Many of the Greeks hearing this “sneered” at Paul or brushed him off (Acts 17:32). If they believed in the same God, why then did they reject God’s message? Because Paul was attacking their concept of what that God was, which was incompatible with the Christian concept of who God is - this means it was incompatible with the true God.

To again quote patristics on this:

“God,” he says, “that made the world” (Acts 17:24). He uttered one word, by which he has subverted all the (doctrines) of the philosophers. For the Epicureans affirm all to be fortuitously formed and (by concourse) of atoms, the Stoics held it to be body and fire (ἐ κπύρωσιν). “The world and all that is therein.” Do you mark the conciseness, and in conciseness, clearness? Mark what were the things that were strange to them: that God made the world! Things which now any of the most ordinary persons know, these the Athenians and the wise men of the Athenians knew not. “Seeing He is Lord of heaven and earth:” for if He made them, it is clear that He is Lord. Observe what he affirms to be the note of Deity— creation. Which attribute the Son also has. [Saint John Chrysostom, *Homily 38 on the Acts of the Apostles]
 
That may be the case, but the point is that right or wrong Islam claims their roots in Ishmael.
Yes. And they followed a false prophet. I am not going to argue about Islam. I stand with Grace on this issue. And I have no right to accuse anyone of leaning toward universalism, relativism, or syncretism–my apologies if I have offended.

Here is an interesting quote:

There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist. They are descended from Ishmael, [who] was born to Abraham of Agar, and for this reason they are called both Agarenes and Ishmaelites. They are also called Saracens, which is derived from Sarras kenoi, or destitute of Sara, because of what Agar said to the angel: ‘Sara hath sent me away destitute.’ These used to be idolaters and worshiped the morning star and Aphrodite, whom in their own language they called Khabár, which means great. And so down to the time of Heraclius they were very great idolaters. From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his own heresy. Then, having insinuated himself into the good graces of the people by a show of seeming piety, he gave out that a certain book had been sent down to him from heaven. He had set down some ridiculous compositions in this book of his and he gave it to them as an object of veneration.
St John of Damascus
 
…He had set down some ridiculous compositions in this book of his and he gave it to them as an object of veneration.
St John of Damascus
That part of Saint John Damascene’s treatise always amused me 🙂 If he lived in our modern times and had said that, you’d have riots in the streets and embassies being burned down.
 
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