Is my time up in the Roman Catholic Church?

[Black_Knight]

But Abraham was not a Muslim.

That’s not the point Grace, and it’s self evident.

It was not the Spirit of the Koran that revealed Himself to Abraham. It was the True God who came to him.

No problem there either, but you gotta remember that Islam came into existence way much later.

Just because Muhammad knew some names from the old testament does not mean that his god is their God.

I don’t think that that is what we are talking about here Grace.

Again, to me religion is revelation. We worship and approach - and are approached - by a spirit that reveals something. if we believe this spirit then we worship it. If the revelation is false then the wrong spirit is worshipped.
To me its that simple.

Yet even among practicing Christians sometimes error is believed and shapes their worship…case in point: the new winds of modern doctrines of men of the last 500 years.

Now, if you can find a faith outside of Catholicism that is more faithful to the doctrines of the New Testament and to the writings of the ECF then maybe there’s reason to bail from our most holy faith, but I’ve looked carefully and I cannot find one, so I’m sure as vitam aeternam not going anywhere else.

 

[Ignatius33]

GraceDK,

I’m not an expert on Islam, so I can’t help you with your substantive concern. But in reading your posts, I was impelled to respond. Presumably, you converted from Lutheranism to Catholicism because you concluded that the Catholic Church presents the fullness of truth (or, at the least, is the most likely candidate, based on all the data, for such status). This is why I converted from Protestantism to Catholicism – the accumulation of the evidence supports the Catholic Church’s claims to be what it says it is. I’m assuming that you still believe all of the other Catholic dogmas to be true (assuming the Church’s stance on a Muslim’s worship of Allah is even dogma or has been infallibly decided – again, I’m not an expert on this, sorry).

If so, I’m not saying that you should just blindly obey the Church here without the use of reason. What I’m saying is that reason should lead you to obey the Church and remain in her as the “pillar and foundation of truth.” Here’s what I mean. Even if your intellect leads you to think that the Church erred on this one issue, the force of the Church’s “correctness” on so many other issues should, as a matter of reason and logic, cause you to pause and consider that the Church might just be right on this issue too. I mean, was the Church the pillar and foundation of truth for close to 2000 years, only to fail in the past decade or so (whenever it is that the Church issued its statement on Islam’s worship of the same God)? That would be unbelievably improbable from a scientific viewpoint.

Let me give an example of what I am talking about. Opponents of biblical inerrancy usually seek to prove the Bible contains errors by pointing to alleged contradictions in the scriptural documents. In wrestling with this issue, I came to see that there are many “problem texts” in the Bible which, at first glance, do indeed seem to be contradictory. To make matters worse, some of the problems are so acute that conservative Protestant and Catholic authors really have no good answers to offer. Nevertheless, these Christians remain committed to biblical inerrancy even in the face of objections which they cannot answer satisfactorily. At first, this stance seemed to me to be irrational. After all, I thought, a rational person will be open-minded in his intellectual endeavors. If the evidence accordingly leads him to reject a belief he has cherished since childhood—for example, the inerrancy of scripture—then the rational thing to do is to follow the evidence where it leads.

For an example of the types of a “problem texts” for inerrancy that I am referring to, consider one of the most troubling of the alleged biblical contradictions. In 2 Kings 9, the prophet Elisha arranges for Jehu to be appointed the new king of Israel. Jehu is commissioned with these words:

“Thus says the LORD the God of Israel, “I anoint you king over the people of the LORD, over Israel. And you shall strike down the house of Ahab your master, that I may avenge on Jezebel the blood of my servants the prophets, and the blood of all the servants of the LORD. For the whole house of Ahab shall perish; and I will cut off from Ahab every male, bond or free, in Israel. And I will make the house of Ahab like the house of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, and like the house of Baasha the son of Ahijah. And the dogs shall eat Jezebel in the territory of Jezreel, and none shall bury her.” (2 Kings 9.6-10)

In the succeeding verses, Jehu carries out his vocation ruthlessly in a great slaughter at Jezreel. As a result, God is pleased: “And the LORD said to Jehu, ‘Because you have done well in carrying out what is right in my eyes, and have done to the house of Ahab according to all that was in my heart, your sons of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel.’“ (2 Kings 10.30) Thus God rewards Jehu for the slaughter at Jezreel. However, in the book of Hosea, the Lord apparently condemns Jehu for his actions: “And the LORD said to him, ‘Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will punish the house of Jehu for the blood of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel.’“ (Hosea 1.4) In the first passage, God is pleased and rewards Jehu; in the other, he seems to punish Jehu for the very same thing he was rewarded for doing! This is one of the gravest challenges to biblical inerrancy that I have ever encountered in all of my reading. I do not know of a satisfying solution; every proposal I have encountered
seems more or less forced.

Yet, even in the face of this apparent contradiction—and many others—I still held to biblical inerrancy. And I think I am justified in holding to inerrancy, even if I can’t personally explain some apparent contradictions. As one scholar pointed out:

“Before I am rationally justified in believing that an alleged error [in scripture] is a real one, the evidence for this error must be sufficient to overturn all the evidence I have for the inerrancy of Scripture. Why? Because this problem text should not be rationally appraised qua particular but qua member of the class “Scripture.” This is not theological dogmatism or presuppositional apologetics. This is a proper understanding of “induction” as it is used in any discipline which methodologically resembles science” (J. P. Moreland, “The Rationality of Belief in Inerrancy”).

By analogy, before you can be rationally justified in discarding Catholicism as a false religious system, the evidence for the Church’s error vis-à-vis Islam must be sufficient to overturn all the evidence in favor of the Church’s claims, which is voluminous.

Hope this is somewhat useful.

 

[WesleyF]

Whether you believe it was a spirit from inside of Muhammad or a spirit from the outside, it does not change my conclusion.

Why not? Because you claim that the spirit is worshipped, then if the spirit was the spirit of Mohammad, then they should be worshipping Mohammad.

To me it seems that you and everyone else is either not understanding my reasoning (maybe its only my own friends and family that it makes sense to, especially those who are free to use their reason to reach another conclusion than that of Nostra Aetate.) or that you avoid it.

To me it seems that you’ve become arrogant and cocky and unwilling to listen to others’ opinions. Frankly. If it was the Holy Spirit that was moving you, your words would be marked by meekness and gentleness, not insulting words like these:

You may worship the Koranic god but I do not.

I cannot hide and say: "but but but… the church said… "

I will surely stand up and say, "Lord, you yourself said about your church - “He who hears you, hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me.”

 

[WesleyF]

…
…
…
…

You can be sure I could have responded to each of your posts, but all this while I was not responding for your sake but for Grace’s sake. But as I perceive it, she has already made up her mind, so I don’t think I should waste my time either.

 

[Church_Militant]

You can be sure I could have responded to each of your posts, but all this while I was not responding for your sake but for Grace’s sake. But as I perceive it, she has already made up her mind, so I don’t think I should waste my time either.

Wesley, I don’t think the lady has made up her mind and it is never a waste of time to respond to someone’s honest questions like this.
Grace, don’t pay this fella any mind.

There are plenty of us here who care enough to engage you and try to help you understand the context of what the Church is teaching.

PM me if you feel you need to and I’ll be glad to try to help.

 

[Mickey]

Happy to hear that. Neither do I.
To me it’s all about revelation. That is how we know what god we are dealing with.
If the revelation is true, it comes from the true God (like the Scripture of Jews and Christians and thus these two worship the same Spirit even if the Jews have lesser understanding) if its false, then it comes from a false spirit. The Koran is false… it even curses Christians, denounces Christ as God, and denies the crucifixion. This revelation then must have come from an evil spirit.
Muslims would never say they worship God as He revealed Himself in our authoritative Scriptures. If they did they would have to become Christians. So too… for those catholics who believe in allah who wrote the Koran… they are then muslims. they cannot serve two masters.

Its funny that so many Muslims whose testmononies I read say that they did not worship the true God when they were Muslims.

I took contact to a certain man, Ibrahim, whose very fascinating testimony I read on the internet. He was a very ardent and serious Muslim who became convinced that Christianity was the truth… When I contacted him with my reasoning and explained my thoughts and debates to him he agreed with me. He said clearly that he had indeed not known nor worshipped the true God, but a false god with a false revelation, all the years where he was in the grip of Islam.

Peace,

Ps. I am sad to see that my Catholic brothers would are very reluctant to say the Muslims worship a false god, but have no problem saying it about the Jews even when it was among those Jesus our Lord worshipped the Father.

Great post!

 

[GraceDK]

If the Muslims are indeed the descendants of Abraham then they exist by the very prophecy of God from when the Angel speaks with Hagar and tells her to return to service under Sarah, so then their origins are in the same monotheisitic God of the Jews and in that context the Church is correct in what it says about them, whether either one accepts the Christian God as we know him is actually beside the point of the issue, and it is God’s work to reach them by the Holy Spirit…something I have no doubt at all that He can and will do.

Most devout Jews will tell you in a flash that they do not worship the same God we do because they reject the Trinity. Is that not the same reason that most n-Cs reject Islam? (Political and cultural differences aside). If they are both rooted in the line of Abraham, then the Church is correct in the statement in the Catechism, and we can accept it and carry on as faithful Catholics, while the modern American n-Cs (in particular), are caught up in a mix of patriotism and fundamentalist Christianity (which IMO is both sad and dangerous) then they will continue to argue about this just as they continue to argue for errant modern new winds of doctrines of men from some 500 years ago…and to the same basic effect.

The Catholic Church is correct…modern n-Cs are wrong.

Let us not confuse ethnicity with religion, nor assume that muslims are descendants of Abraham per se. Even if many are descendants of Ishmael this does not mean that they have the God that Abraham had.

A modern Jew might worship Buddha and still have Jacob in his ancestry, in that case he is not a believer in judaism… not a believer in the God that revealed himself on Sinai. (The lack of covenant history in Islam should be enough to convince anyone about its origin).
(I by the way think Jews have a valid point in saying we dont worship the same God… from their perspective. Thats logical to assume from their point of view, just as its only natural that a majority of Christians hold that islams god is not the true God.

In New Age there are people who worship the “interplanetary love”, higher conscience or some guru. I have an aunt in TM whom I would say worships Maharishi instead of Jesus. Oh, she was told she could remain a Christian, no propblem. But of course that is a lie. I have another friend who was asked to bow down infront of a gold.stature of a calf in an ashram. yes, you heard right, And these groups use Mary and Jesus as mere names in their world view… the christ-conscience etc. This does not mean they worship the true God. He is just one of their “masters”. They worship a false spirit or their own mind.

Likewise with Muslims. They may use Abraham as a name… but even Abraham is distorted in Koranic faith: he was a muslim, it is written. And Ishmael was the chosen one, not Isaac.
True Scriptures are distorted in Islam… and names and indicents are mentioned in great confusion in the Koran, like some legendary stuff. But the author of the Koran, the god that stood behind its making, is a false god. This god is whom the Muslims worship and call on.
I dont see how there can be any doubt about this.

Its odd, on these boards I must explain this a hundred times and still people seems to refuse to enter the reasoning and test it. When I speak to all sorts of Christians in real life they understand me, and I never once met someone who didn’t agree with me.

 

[Mickey]

But Abraham was not a Muslim. It was not the Spirit of the Koran that revealed Himself to Abraham. It was the True God who came to him.
Just because Muhammad knew some names from the old testament does not mean that his god is their God.
Again, to me religion is revelation. We worship and approach - and are approached - by a spirit that reveals something. if we believe this spirit then we worship it. If the revelation is false then the wrong spirit is worshipped.
To me its that simple.

Exactly.

 

[Mickey]

Its odd, on these boards I must explain this a hundred times and still people seems to refuse to enter the reasoning and test it. When I speak to all sorts of Christians in real life they understand me, and I never once met someone who didn’t agree with me.

Yes. I am very surprised by the stance taken here by some on this board. The way you have explained your reasoning is the way I was taught when I was in the Catholic Church and now in the Orthodox Church.

 

[GraceDK]

Why not? Because you claim that the spirit is worshipped, then if the spirit was the spirit of Mohammad, then they should be worshipping Mohammad.

To me it seems that you’ve become arrogant and cocky and unwilling to listen to others’ opinions. Frankly. If it was the Holy Spirit that was moving you, your words would be marked by meekness and gentleness, not insulting words like these:

I will surely stand up and say, "Lord, you yourself said about your church - “He who hears you, hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me.”

I insult you because I take your words to their consequence?

Actually I believe that my priest, who made me so disturbed and caused this thread, when he indicated that the Koran is the word of God, took the belief of the church to it’s natural consequence:
If we actually “worship the same god”, then we worship the god of islam, and then we must also believe in the Koran and consider going to the mosque.
Therefore I say, you might believe in allah, but I do not.

This reminds me of a conversation I had today with a colleague. She was shocked when I told her about Obama’s yes to partial birth abortion. This was something she never heard about before. My point in that conversation was: Obama takes his pro-choice stance all the way to its conclusion… he does not stop mid-air like many other “proper” people do when they accept abortion until 9th or 12th week. For him the unborn is simply unworthy in itself.
So he makes more sense to me than the relativists.

You cannot both say we worship the same god and then say, “but we dont worship allah and dont believe in the koran”.
Did God make Islam or did he not? If He did not, then the Church has no right to say we believe in the god of islam.
Its that simple.

 

[hansard]

I won’t address any aspect of the Koran (of which I know little), but just the notion of questioning faith in general:
I have regularly heard things preached from the pulpit or read things in the Catechism which have caused me to exclaim: “What? Where on earth did he/they get that idea?”
I don’t find anything wrong with questioning articles of faith, even dogmatic things, and demanding to know where they came from and how they can be justified. (The trick is how you go about the questioning)
If you find yourself getting hot under the collar and diving to the keyboard to denounce a practice of the church, that’s fine. It just means that you are an inquisitive, interested member of the church. That’s far more valuable than the “obligation Catholic” who is an automaton at mass and never really thinks about anything.
In its early days, the church was dynamic, and debated all manner of theology at great length. We need to reclaim some of that wonder and enthusiasm.

 

[GraceDK]

Wesley, I don’t think the lady has made up her mind and it is never a waste of time to respond to someone’s honest questions like this.
Grace, don’t pay this fella any mind.

There are plenty of us here who care enough to engage you and try to help you understand the context of what the Church is teaching.

PM me if you feel you need to and I’ll be glad to try to help.

Dear **Church Militant **and Wesley.

I thank you both for your kindness and patience thus far. Yet I ask you to remember, I did not come with the intention that you explain Church teaching or its proper context to me. I have been in those discussions before. I have read the statement from the 2. vatican council that I disagree with. My conclusions were made after a long time of reflextion and discussion with clever people on these boards and with former Muslims.
I really wish I could be part of the group that believes what they are “supposed to believe”,

But I cannot go against what seems logical to me on every theological and rational level. Believe me, its no fun being a rebel or accused of heretic tendencies or the like… it harms also my good relationship with the Lord, when fellow Christians indicate that my battle is agianst Him if I should be unable to change conclusions …

I did not come here to put you through a long argument. I came to ask if there is room for someone in the Church who disagrees with teachings of the Church and thus has a harmed trust in Church teaching as a consequence.

 

[GraceDK]

I won’t address any aspect of the Koran (of which I know little), but just the notion of questioning faith in general:
I have regularly heard things preached from the pulpit or read things in the Catechism which have caused me to exclaim: “What? Where on earth did he/they get that idea?”
I don’t find anything wrong with questioning articles of faith, even dogmatic things, and demanding to know where they came from and how they can be justified. (The trick is how you go about the questioning)
If you find yourself getting hot under the collar and diving to the keyboard to denounce a practice of the church, that’s fine. It just means that you are an inquisitive, interested member of the church. That’s far more valuable than the “obligation Catholic” who is an automaton at mass and never really thinks about anything.
In its early days, the church was dynamic, and debated all manner of theology at great length. We need to reclaim some of that wonder and enthusiasm.

Lovely… thanks. You are a brother indeed

 

[GraceDK]

Yes. I am very surprised by the stance taken here by some on this board. The way you have explained your reasoning is the way I was taught when I was in the Catholic Church and now in the Orthodox Church.

Will you tell me your testimony?

 

[Roy5]

I AGREE WITH THE PRIEST

 Now, as a mainline Protestant, my contribution here may not be seen as important or valid, but here goes.

 That priest who apparently tried to preach a message of reconciliation with other faiths strikes me as a true man of God. He wants people of different religions to live in mutual respect with one another. Ditto!

 I do not agree with Islam, and certainly not with the Muslim crazies who go about commiting acts of terrorism. But Islam shares so much with Judaism and Christianity. Yes, it does not teach that Jesus is the one and only Son of God. But it views him as a prophet worthy of admiration who was born on the Virgin Mary. In fact, there is more about Mary in the Koran than in the Bible.

 We should be working toward a new sense of unity among people of the Abrahamic religions. That would solve so many of the problems the world faces today. And Islam, like Christianity and Judaism, is diverse. How many people know that four Islamic nations have had women as presidents or prime ministers - Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Turkey? How many people know that in Iran there are more women than men attending university, that before the invason Iraq had more women engineers per capita than any other nation in the world? Too often our media distort and create a hostility that is not in keeping with the Sermon on the Mount.

 It is the arrogance of believers - Muslims, Christians and Jews - who think they have the only true faith which creates much of the discord in the world. Isn't it shameful that followers of the one God have spent so much time demonizing, hating and even killing one another? My feeling is that heaven is full of people of different religions who loved God and their fellow human beings. Most of us come to our faith through the accident of birth, so why such pride? But for the grace of God.... And pride goeth before the fall.

 If more priests, ministers, rabbis and imams were preaching reconciliation we would have a much better world. Congratulations and God bless that particular priest and all those who advocate mutual respect.

 And God bless the whole world - no exceptions.

 

[Saint_Polycarp]

Dear sisters and brothers.
I’m sorry if I write this in a state of emotion but it has been a long time coming.

Short story, I just came home from mass. It was a lovely morning, I took my bike to church. While there I thought: "It’s going pretty well for father M today (- father M has often said things from the pulpit and in private that made me fall off my chair because he is so liberal).
He was preaching about the Bible. Talking about how wonderful it was to read it, he praised the pentecostals for carrying the Bible with them very often, and basically said: "It’s so wonderful to read the word of God… in the Bible… In the Koran… " Thats where it darkened infront of my eyes. I did not hear the rest. I looked around: people looked like they had not heard anything unusual. They looked dead. I felt my pulse go up, my blood gushing through my head. It was a cross to be there… people next to me didn’t kneel at the consecration … I had to receive Christ so I struggled my way throigh and dizzily went and received Him. Then I ran out of church and now I am here.

Some of you might know me from the non-christian religions section in discussion with Muslims. If anyone is from Denmark you may have seen me in the Catholic newspaper arguing against the bishop, as I theologically and logically argue that the God of the Bible and the allah of the Koran are not the same god, and thus I honestly admit that the council document Nostra Aetate is wrong when it says we worship the same god as the Muslims.
Many Catholics have stated their agreement with me.

If this was merely a problem with some Catholic person’s behaviour I would be sad but not in turmoil. But this is me disagreeing with Church teaching. I can in no way reconcile with this teaching.
I am a radical person. I normally take the consequences of what I believe.
As it is then, this error as I see it, harms my view of the Catholic institution as infallible teacher of divine revelation. My trust diminishes.

I am deeply sad and confused… do I have a future as a Catholic or do I seek to reconcile with the apparent fact that no one church has the full truth?

Please… give me your thoughts, however, only those of you who have actually studied Islam to some extent and knows what the Koran teaches…

:´-( Grace

Your priest was errant when said the Koran was the word of God. Only the Bible is the word of God. Sometimes priests are flat out wrong and need to be corrected.
As far as the rest goes, there is only one God. Islam has it wrong but that they intend to worship the God of Abraham it can be said they worship the same God as us.

 

[GraceDK]

Your priest was errant when said the Koran was the word of God. Only the Bible is the word of God. Sometimes priests are flat out wrong and need to be corrected.
As far as the rest goes, there is only one God. Islam has it wrong but that they intend to worship the God of Abraham it can be said they worship the same God as us.

Then we can do away with the word “Idolatry” and “idolater” altogether.
I dont think the polytheists in India intends to worship false gods. But they do.

 

[GraceDK]

I AGREE WITH THE PRIEST

 Now, as a mainline Protestant, my contribution here may not be seen as important or valid, but here goes.

 That priest who apparently tried to preach a message of reconciliation with other faiths strikes me as a true man of God. He wants people of different religions to live in mutual respect with one another. Ditto!

 I do not agree with Islam, and certainly not with the Muslim crazies who go about commiting acts of terrorism. But Islam shares so much with Judaism and Christianity. Yes, it does not teach that Jesus is the one and only Son of God. But it views him as a prophet worthy of admiration who was born on the Virgin Mary. In fact, there is more about Mary in the Koran than in the Bible.

 We should be working toward a new sense of unity among people of the Abrahamic religions. That would solve so many of the problems the world faces today. And Islam, like Christianity and Judaism, is diverse. How many people know that four Islamic nations have had women as presidents or prime ministers - Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Turkey? How many people know that in Iran there are more women than men attending university, that before the invason Iraq had more women engineers per capita than any other nation in the world? Too often our media distort and create a hostility that is not in keeping with the Sermon on the Mount.

 It is the arrogance of believers - Muslims, Christians and Jews - who think they have the only true faith which creates much of the discord in the world. Isn't it shameful that followers of the one God have spent so much time demonizing, hating and even killing one another? My feeling is that heaven is full of people of different religions who loved God and their fellow human beings. Most of us come to our faith through the accident of birth, so why such pride? But for the grace of God.... And pride goeth before the fall.

 If more priests, ministers, rabbis and imams were preaching reconciliation we would have a much better world. Congratulations and God bless that particular priest and all those who advocate mutual respect.

 And God bless the whole world - no exceptions.

Well, if Jesus had been a universalist he would not have been nailed to the cross. But He was no universalist. He said: “No one comes to the Father except through Me”.
That has caused a lot of trouble… if Christ had not said that, there would have been one less religion in the world… a little more agreement. however, not based on truth.
in Heaven everyone worships the Lamb of God, realising who Christ Is. As a protestant I hope you agree with this…otherwise you are in deeper trouble than I am.

 

[Mickey]

Where can I find the context of this? I keep links to most of the ECF.

orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

 

[Saint_Polycarp]

Then we can do away with the word “Idolatry” and “idolater” altogether.
I dont think the polytheists in India intends to worship false gods. But they do.

Is God the God of Abraham? If so that is the God Muslims worship. Whether their theology is correct is a different matter. They intend to worship the one true God who revealed himself to Abraham.

I’m not sure you understand what Hindus believe either and they can’t be compared to Judaism, Christianity or Islam.