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truetofaith
Guest
Is that what God wants ?..separate bedrooms
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Kelfa28
Guest
I can sympathize.NFP itself isn’t too much of a cross for us. It sucks, sure, but so do a lot of things. We’re lucky in that I have very regular cycles, and we’ve found a method that works for us.
The problem is that DH’s monthly work cycle and my body’s cycle have aligned in such a way that ever since I started cycling post-DD, my husband’s monthly work deadlines align with the middle-to-end of Phase III. These deadlines are such that he’s working 18-20-hour days, plus a commute, for about a week, which means that Phase III is nearly impossible to use. On that kind of schedule, he’s (quite understandably) not interested in anything but sleep if he’s not working. Since my cycle is 31-33 days long…yeah. It’s unlikely to change, unless we’re willing to TTW/TTC. We get about 3 usable days in Phase I.
That I really, really hate.
My husband has been on and off orders doing 2 days on, 2 off, 3 days on, 3 off…at 12-13 hours days.
Then it gets complicated when the entire schedule switches from days to nights every 4 months.
He’s been trying to get a full time job doing this and we need the money…pretty badly at this point.
It would be stupid to not take a full time slot with the benefits, vacation, pay and pension he’ll get in the end.
Then it will complicate things even further when I finish school and start working in the medical field…which also has strange hours.
But…no, it does not work with my cycles at all. Not even close.
Planning vacations means trying to actually guess when I’m in phase 3 and keeping my fingers cross that nothing weird happens that month…or that the months line up the way I want them too.
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Kelfa28
Guest
Hubby and I have resorted to this…in all seriousness.Is that what God wants ?..separate bedrooms
We’ll probably have to go there again…especially after having this baby. My cycles are just impossible to interpret and I’ll be starting Marquette and will have to learn it.
Temptation won’t be there if I’m in a separate room to sleep for a little while.
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masondoggy
Guest
I hear ya! Considering I’m 38, overweight, already suffered a miscarriage at 13 weeks this past November (yay lazy charting and it’s all my fault
), I’m just finishing nursing school, Hyperemesis Gravidarum makes pregnancy horrific, AND I already have 4 including 3 teenagers that seriously make me want to drink…I. AM. DONE. DONE.And I really have to roll my eyes when the CCL-types reiterate over and over that we have to have “grave” reasons to avoid.
Whatever…My reasons probably aren’t “grave” enough to those types.
(sorry, I know I have a horrible attitude but I can’t help it. This has been a cross and I’m exhausted. And losing a baby after suffering HG for 13 weeks after my lazy charting has really twisted my view and left me bitter)
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Xantippe
Guest
All of that said, the CCL’s Art of NFP book has been very helpful.
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masondoggy
Guest
yes, yes, yes!
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truetofaith
Guest
My wife & I didn’t want to commit mortal sin after being married, by using birth control, so we prayed & left it in God’s hands…well guess what… it turned out I was sterile & had no birth control issues and we finally adopted a baby through the Catholic Home Bureau. She’s the love of our life and is now married & we have 2 beautiful grandchildren!
God worked it out …but differently than we expected…
God worked it out …but differently than we expected…
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masondoggy
Guest
I agree. I originally taught myself with the CCL book and it was a Godsend to me because we couldn’t afford to take classes and I really needed to get right with God after using contraception the first few years of our marriage.
The NFP instruction was wonderful, but the other stuff just made me feel so alone because my husband isn’t Catholic. It was a huge turn-off to me even back then, but after all the struggles I’ve dealt with on this journey it has really made me angry that they present their opinions as Catholic teaching. It’s just not right, imo.
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Xantippe
Guest
That’s really sad. I’m sorry.
To be fair, though, it’s not really the CCL that is biggest on “grave” reasons.
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masondoggy
Guest
That may be true, but there is a subset of Catholics who continually push the idea that a woman’s life must be on the line to validly use NFP according to Church teaching and that just is not the case.
I think pushing that as Church teaching does more harm than good.
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truetofaith
Guest
It’s a shame that married people have to call the desire to make love with each other …Temptation!
uch:
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gardenswithkids
Guest
Sailor, perhaps you don’t realize it, but posts like yours makes following the Church teachings much harder. Do you remember the part in the gospels where the soldiers mock Christ as he’s up on the cross? It’s like you’re jeering at those who follow the Church teachings with “Come on down off your cross!”
That’s exactly how if felt to me when one priest told me we didn’t need to follow the Church teachings. I felt like I was being mocked. As it turned out that particular priest had his own difficulty with following the Church teachings on chastity.
Your conscience permits you to ignore and violate Church teachings, but that’s you and your conscience. Where does such comment leave some of us Catholics? Not everyone’s conscience allows artificial contraception, so that “follow your conscience” mantra still leaves some Catholics out hanging on crosses while other Catholics jeer and taunt.
Perhaps the greatest paradox of Christianity is that* the Cross is a blessing.* Fellow Catholics, hang onto your crosses! Those of you who haven’t yet done so, pick up your cross and follow Him.
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Xantippe
Guest
That subset definitely exists, but I wouldn’t blame the CCL for it.
What makes it even more fun is that in practice on CAF, a number of posters won’t even accept danger to the mother’s life as a reason to use NFP. I’m sure you’ve seen plenty of CAF discussions where there are fairly obvious traditional “serious reasons,” and then there will be somebody saying, “But I had a baby under those circumstances, so you have to, too!” Noooope.
I think one source of misunderstanding is that people hear certain situations described as “serious reasons” and then they feel that it is a judgment on them if they experienced those same circumstances and had more kids anyway (we had a very lively discussion on maternal age a year or so ago). The misunderstanding there, I think, is believing that “serious reasons” mean that abstaining is automatically mandatory. I’ve often argued here for the existence of a fairly large grey area, where it is both possible to avoid or to not avoid and it be a reasonable moral choice. It’s a mistake to think that if an action isn’t forbidden it must be mandatory–those are not the only two possible choices.
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truetofaith
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I’m sure the Church gives a dispensation for special circumstances, such as yours. Ask your Pastor or Bishop.I hear ya! Considering I’m 38, overweight, already suffered a miscarriage at 13 weeks this past November (yay lazy charting and it’s all my fault
And I really have to roll my eyes when the CCL-types reiterate over and over that we have to have “grave” reasons to avoid.
Whatever…My reasons probably aren’t “grave” enough to those types.
(sorry, I know I have a horrible attitude but I can’t help it. This has been a cross and I’m exhausted. And losing a baby after suffering HG for 13 weeks after my lazy charting has really twisted my view and left me bitter)
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whm
Guest
That is the problem right there. NFP as marketed as moral birth control. In reality NFP can never fail, because conception is always a possibility. From a biological standpoint, a pregnancy is a successful sex act. The thought process to have sex when you (really, really) don’t want a pregnancy is flawed in my opinion. “I can’t believe it we had sex… and we got pregnant!!” It actually is kind of insane when you think about it.
My question is why do we need to have sex when we don’t want a baby (not being sarcastic, trying to be introspective)? To avoid sin, that makes sense, but hopefully we grow out of that need. What are the other reasons? To give to each other? that only makes sense to me if you are open to children. If a pregnancy would be really really bad, how is having sex giving? Same with bonding? If a pregnancy would be bad, how is attempting to create a child and hoping it doesn’t happen a bonding experience?
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truetofaith
Guest
I’m wondering why this Topic wasn’t CLOSED, since many people disagree with the Church’s position. 
Other less volatile topics, were closed.
Other less volatile topics, were closed.
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Xantippe
Guest
In the interests of completeness, I should mention that my experience with CCL’s materials were from around 1998-2005ish (???). During those years, they were deep into ecological breastfeeding and attachment parenting.
There’s reason to think that CCL’s focus and philosophy has changed a lot over the past 10 years, so those observations may no longer be fair at this point.
Here’s something I found (but this is also somewhat old, as it’s from 2008):
“CCL is now promoting a more high tech, streamlined, and scientific approach to NFP. They have also adopted an altered approach to breastfeeding and child spacing and for that I give them two thumbs up! The new materials are really great, and the new student guide is a must have, with simpler rules, great computer graphics, and even a new software program (Cycle-Pro) to help chart your cycles.
Overall, I think the changes at CCL are GREAT, but I think the changes related to breastfeeding are SUPER GREAT! And here is why:
Two years ago my husband and I signed up to become NFP instructors for our diocese. We were required to receive training through CCL (this is typical of most diocesan offices), and we filled out the forms to enroll in the CCL teaching training program. This was prior to the new CCL materials and, in our application form, we were required to explain why we didn’t ecologically breastfeed our children. It was at this point that I realized just how intertwined CCL and the promoters of Attachment Parenting/ecological breastfeeding had become.”
“Now, I exclusively breastfeed my children, but I do not sleep with my babies, nor do I avoid pacifiers, etc. Under the old CCL regime, as NFP instructors, we would be expected to not only teach NFP, but to promote a particular style of parenting and child spacing: ecological breastfeeding/AP. At the time, we couldn’t sign the form saying we had personally practiced this type of parenting, nor would I sign anything agreeing to parent this way in the future. I explained my reasons fully in an attached essay, and we were granted an “exemption” so to speak, and because CCL was soon changing this part of the materials, we were permitted to move forward with the teacher training.”
patheos.com/blogs/buildingcathedrals/2008/05/whats-going-on-at-ccl/
There’s reason to think that CCL’s focus and philosophy has changed a lot over the past 10 years, so those observations may no longer be fair at this point.
Here’s something I found (but this is also somewhat old, as it’s from 2008):
“CCL is now promoting a more high tech, streamlined, and scientific approach to NFP. They have also adopted an altered approach to breastfeeding and child spacing and for that I give them two thumbs up! The new materials are really great, and the new student guide is a must have, with simpler rules, great computer graphics, and even a new software program (Cycle-Pro) to help chart your cycles.
Overall, I think the changes at CCL are GREAT, but I think the changes related to breastfeeding are SUPER GREAT! And here is why:
Two years ago my husband and I signed up to become NFP instructors for our diocese. We were required to receive training through CCL (this is typical of most diocesan offices), and we filled out the forms to enroll in the CCL teaching training program. This was prior to the new CCL materials and, in our application form, we were required to explain why we didn’t ecologically breastfeed our children. It was at this point that I realized just how intertwined CCL and the promoters of Attachment Parenting/ecological breastfeeding had become.”
“Now, I exclusively breastfeed my children, but I do not sleep with my babies, nor do I avoid pacifiers, etc. Under the old CCL regime, as NFP instructors, we would be expected to not only teach NFP, but to promote a particular style of parenting and child spacing: ecological breastfeeding/AP. At the time, we couldn’t sign the form saying we had personally practiced this type of parenting, nor would I sign anything agreeing to parent this way in the future. I explained my reasons fully in an attached essay, and we were granted an “exemption” so to speak, and because CCL was soon changing this part of the materials, we were permitted to move forward with the teacher training.”
patheos.com/blogs/buildingcathedrals/2008/05/whats-going-on-at-ccl/
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Xantippe
Guest
Based on observation, I don’t think that dissent is what gets topics closed.I’m wondering why this Topic wasn’t CLOSED, since many people disagree with the Church’s position.
Other less volatile topics, were closed.
What gets topics closed is rudeness, inflammatory personal remarks, and obvious trolling.
So far, we’re all being pretty civil.
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Kelfa28
Guest
Except when you are avoiding pregnancy…it is temptation. There is no other word for it.It’s a shame that married people have to call the desire to make love with each other …Temptation!
We can’t and don’t want another baby after the third.
We have to abstain.
We can’t do anything else…passionate kissing leads to other things and we have to figure out a balance that doesn’t result in a pregnancy and/or result in the two of us ending up in confession because we went “too far” with no intention to finish.
Of course there is temptation within marriage…especially when you actually have reasons to abstain and are trying to figure out a happy medium that doesn’t result in another baby.
When I’m fertile…that will end up with us in separate bedrooms to avoid going too far without going far enough.
I can’t just be intimate whenever I want. It’s not possible. I’ll end up pregnant again after less then a month of being PP. My body cannot do that.
I can’t just kiss my husband or have him kiss me if I’m fertile and I want to be with him…because it’s too hard to stop sometimes.
No, it doesn’t happen throughout my cycle…but there are plenty of times where I want my husband and he wants me and we have to abstain.
I go for 3 mile runs, I avoid cuddling with him, I’ve gone so far as to sleep in the spare bedroom just to avoid the temptation to do anything intimate with him.
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truetofaith
Guest
Ask your Confessor if you can get a dispensation since you reached your limit of children.
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