Is Orthodox Christianity seen as a place where the Catholic & Protestant Churches could possibly reunite?

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dvdjs said:
Sometimes it can get messy. Problems can arise when churches act in a way that seems more competitive than collaborative. But in the CC there is a means of working out problems that might seem intractable: there is the prospect of appealing to Rome. I think that this is arguably better than the EO method, which has involved and continues to involve going one’s own way and holding out until others acquiesce. .
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These are more or less organizational questions and do not touch upon the serious doctrinal disagreements, especially the papal teachings, that E. Orthodox say they have with Roman Catholicism.
 
Tomdstone said:
These are more or less organizational questions and do not touch upon the serious doctrinal disagreements, especially the papal teachings, that E. Orthodox say they have with Roman Catholicism.
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I am not sure why you have been pursuing a line of questions on a matter that you don’t think important to the thread. In any case, I doubt that your conjecture is right. My response was suggestive of a manner of exercising primacy that would be opposed in some, but not all quarters of Orthodoxy. The recent back and forth between theologians in the EP and the MP, who disagree very strongly about primacy vividly illustrates this point.
 
Tomdstone said:
These are more or less organizational questions and do not touch upon the serious doctrinal disagreements, especially the papal teachings, that E. Orthodox say they have with Roman Catholicism.
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Well the orthodox won’t admit it but they have serious problems with this amongst themselves. These situations where you have competing orthodox churches in one country doesn’t speak highly of unity. The root cause of their fear of papal teaching comes back to the fear they have of being unified even among the orthodox. They’re stuck in this National model because of distrust and politics. Part of the reason I think why orthodox churches are comparatively poor at evangelsizing outside of their region is because they are so tied down to the home nation.
 
boar2roar said:
Well the orthodox won’t admit it but they have serious problems with this amongst themselves. These situations where you have competing orthodox churches in one country doesn’t speak highly of unity. The root cause of their fear of papal teaching comes back to the fear they have of being unified even among the orthodox. They’re stuck in this National model because of distrust and politics. Part of the reason I think why orthodox churches are comparatively poor at evangelsizing outside of their region is because they are so tied down to the home nation.
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Russian Orthodox author Alexander Schmemann described the situation this way:

“We live in the poisoned atmosphere of anathemas and excommunications, court cases and litigations, dubious consecrations of dubious bishops, hatred, calumny, lies! But do we think about the irreparable moral damage all this inflicts to our people? How can they respect the Hierarchy and its decisions? What meaning can the very concept of canonicity have for them? Are we not encouraging them to consider all norms, all regulations, all rules as purely relative? One wonders sometimes whether our bishops realize the scandal of this situation, whether they ever think about the cynicism all this provokes and feeds in the hearts of Orthodox people? Three Russian jurisdictions, two Serbian, two Romanian, two Albanian, two Bulgarian…A split among the Syrians…the animosity between the Russians and the Carpatho-Russians…the Ukrainian problem!..We teach our children to be ‘proud’ of Orthodoxy, we constantly congratulate ourselves about all kinds of historic events and achievements, our church publications distill an almost unbearable triumphalism and optimism, yet, if we were true to the spirit of our faith we ought to repent in ‘sackcloth and ashes,’ we ought to cry day and night about the sad, the tragical state of our Church…Nothing can justify the bare fact: Our Church is divided. To be sure, there have always been divisions and conflicts among Christians. But for the first time in history, division belongs to the very structure of the Church.” (Alexander Schmemann, St. Vladimir’s Theological Quarterly, Vol. 8, No. 2, 1964; pp. 67-84).

In light of the difficulties associated with the 2016 Pan-Orthodox Council described here, it is obvious that the situation has not improved in the fifty years since Schmemann penned those words.

Orthodox (or some Orthodox, anyway) believe that no Council is definitive until the “whole Church” has accepted it. This receptionism theory engenders in the individual the idea that his “vote” counts and thus, he is actually encouraged to pick and choose what he will or won’t accept from the hierarchy of the Church. Rather than the Church judging, guiding and correcting the individual on his journey through life, each individual Orthodox now stands in judgment of the Church on its passage through history!

We call people like this “Cafeteria Catholics”, but it has another name, also: Protestantism. The problems that occur when each believer is free to interpret the Sacred Scriptures for himself are multiplied many times over when each individual is free to interpret not only the Bible but also the writings of the Fathers and the Councils of the Church, as well.
 
Back to the OP, there is probably at the present time no framework for a Christian reunion.

Between C and O, there are relatively minor theological and canonical points that cannot be compromised.

Between P and C, there are glaring theological gaps that will not be harmonized.

ISTM that nothing in this life will close the cracks.

IMNAAHO.

ICXC NIKA.
 
boar2roar said:
Well the orthodox won’t admit it but they have serious problems with this amongst themselves. These situations where you have competing orthodox churches in one country doesn’t speak highly of unity. The root cause of their fear of papal teaching comes back to the fear they have of being unified even among the orthodox. They’re stuck in this National model because of distrust and politics. Part of the reason I think why orthodox churches are comparatively poor at evangelsizing outside of their region is because they are so tied down to the home nation.
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According to Pope Francis diversity constitutes an immense richness.
Further, the Roman Catholic Church has its own problems with differences and politics.
“…a recent Synod of Bishops on the family in the Vatican exposed deep internal fissures on a variety of fronts, including how welcoming the church ought to be to homosexuals, how positive its evaluation of various “irregular” relationships such as living together outside marriage should be, and whether Catholics who divorce and remarry outside the church ought to be allowed to receive communion.”
cruxnow.com/church/2014/11/29/facing-splits-inside-and-outside-pope-francis-calls-for-unity/

“Inside and outside the synod hall, debates took on a sometimes nasty tone, featuring accusations of gag orders and censorship, suspicions that the deck was being stacked in one direction or another, and charges that some synod leaders were deliberately imposing their own views on its documents rather than reflecting the consensus of the group.”
"Diversity, Francis said, “may seem to create disorder,” but that’s where faith in the Holy Spirit enters the picture.

“Under his guidance [differences] constitute an immense richness,” he said, “because the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of unity, which is not the same thing as uniformity.”"
 
GEddie said:
Between C and O, there are relatively minor theological and canonical points that cannot be compromised.
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I think it is more apt to say: Between C and O, there are relatively minor theological and canonical points that need not be compromised.

We have to overcome habits of effectively defining what we and who we are by contrast with others presupposed to be missing the mark. We have to re-examine history and develop a better understanding of the forces outside of faith at work so that we can arrive at better understanding of the truth that we all profess. Access to historical materials and contemporary scholarship will make this happen, inevitably happen, over the next 50 years or less.

I’ll give one example, from earlier in the thread.
prodromos said:
Because they are the ones who have made many adjustments away from the faith once held in common. I was reading a thread in Traditional Catholicism a few days ago and discovered that a Catholic priest can celebrate Mass several times a day at the same altar. I’ve also learned that a priest can celebrate a private mass on his own.

All these are huge changes.

In the Orthodox Church, a priest cannot serve more than one liturgy per day, neither can more than one liturgy be served on the same altar in one day. It is also not possible for a priest to serve the liturgy unless he is accompanied by at least one other person.
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It seems to be presupposed, that current RC practice is a departure from, and current EOC practice is a continuation of, the first millennium practice. But it is easy now for everyone to access scholarship on the subject. I mentioned this book yesterday:
amazon.com/The-Byzantine-Lists-Illinois-Medieval/dp/025202558X, after reading the several pages on this topic on a google book preview.

The bottom line:
The RC practice dates back to the first millennium. It was not a point of contention during that era - even in the disputations surrounding the excommunications in 1054. It was not a point of contention until the end of the 11th century - well after Cerularius was deposed and died awaiting trial in the East for treason and heresy. And the issue was ultimately raised by the EP to end that practice among the EOC clergy of Constantinople. Yes, that “huge change” of practice was already established over a millennium ago, and used by the Greeks, who, post-schism, prohibited the practice.

Now, this history may not change people minds about insisting that the RC drops this practice. But it should. And eventually, when people get a better grip on actual history, rather than historical mythos, distinguish between capital- and small-t tradition, and make the Faith itself paramount, it will.
 
dvdjs said:
It seems to be presupposed, that current RC practice is a departure from, and current EOC practice is a continuation of, the first millennium practice. …
The bottom line:
The RC practice dates back to the first millennium.
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Did they have clown Masses in the first millennium? What about Chinese dragons snaking their way through the Church during Mass celebrating the Chinese New Year? Did they have women dancing up and down the aisles during Mass in the first millennium?
 
Tomdstone said:
Did they have clown Masses in the first millennium? What about Chinese dragons snaking their way through the Church during Mass celebrating the Chinese New Year? Did they have women dancing up and down the aisles during Mass in the first millennium?
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All the Sacraments of the New Covenant were instituted by Jesus Christ.which of course makes them infallible for lack of other acceptable secular terms. 😛
 
GaryTaylor said:
All the Sacraments of the New Covenant were instituted by Jesus Christ.which of course makes them infallible for lack of other acceptable secular terms. 😛
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But does the RC practice of clown Masses or women dancing in the aisles date back to the first millennium or are these innovations?
 
Tomdstone said:
These are wonderful gestures, but I don’t see reunion happening soon. They have had already one thousand years to effect a reunion and it hasn’t happened.
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Thats an opinion, and we should respect the elect of the Church and add our prayers to their intentions.
 
Tomdstone said:
But does the RC practice of clown Masses or women dancing in the aisles date back to the first millennium or are these innovations?
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No idea what you are referring to. I’m talking about divinely instituted sacraments by the Lord. So the accusation needs to be understood in this context, and then proven this negates Christs infallibility.
 
Tomdstone said:
Did they have clown Masses in the first millennium? What about Chinese dragons snaking their way through the Church during Mass celebrating the Chinese New Year? Did they have women dancing up and down the aisles during Mass in the first millennium?
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Of course not, Tom. These are the misguided efforts of liturgists who are trying to reach as many people as possible with the Gospel.

We can laugh (or cry) at the worst of their choices, but their intent is to help people worship God in ways that are meaningful to them.

Is that something that deserves to be mocked?
 
Tomdstone said:
These are wonderful gestures, but I don’t see reunion happening soon. They have had already one thousand years to effect a reunion and it hasn’t happened.
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Ah, but now we have the Internet, and people can finally read for themselves what the Early Church Fathers actually said about the supremacy and universal jurisdiction rather than relying on what the pamphleteers have told them.
 
GaryTaylor said:
No idea what you are referring to.
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dvdjs said:
It seems to be presupposed, that current RC practice is a departure from, and current EOC practice is a continuation of, the first millennium practice.
The bottom line:
The RC practice dates back to the first millennium.
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I gave you an example of an RC practice which does not date from the first millenium.
Steven Colbert gave a sketch of the type of liturgical dance that people have been concerned about. I don’t think that this dates from the first millenium.
youtube.com/watch?v=oASYa-Wkroc
 
Tomdstone said:
I gave you an example of an RC practice which does not date from the first millenium.
Steven Colbert gave a sketch of the type of liturgical dance that people have been concerned about. I don’t think that this dates from the first millenium.
youtube.com/watch?v=oASYa-Wkroc
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My comment was on an issue raised by prodromos, in which first millennium practices were incorrectly characterized. Yours is about some sensibilites of innovation conflated with liturgical abuse.

But let’s be clear about the idea of innovation: neither the RC nor the EOC currently celebrate the liturgy as it was done in Patristic era, let alone the era of the Apostles. And no serious person thinks the people, however they respect tradition, are to be bound by antiquarianism - the dead faith of the living.

Clown masses? References to clown masses outnumber actual occasions of RC clown masses by an enormous ratio. Why some folks are so captivated by them is a great mystery.

Chinese dragons? If there were such moves toward enculturation in the first millennium, they would have occurred in the Church of the East, which stretched into China before being decimated annihilated by Tamurlane. That is a moot point. Fortunately, Christianity has come back to people of the far east. In fact, it is estimated that there are now more Christians in China than in any other country. I am happy about the evangelization. I doubt that Chinese would all worship just like Greeks or Italians, and have not interest in policing them. This must be about Christ, not about Western cultures.

Dancing? Goes back to the OT - David and others - I suppose. In the cathedral practice at Hagia Sophia the Great Entrance was very showy - a bit theatrical by modern standards; I also was pointed by an EO priest to a video of EO services in Africa that showed a spontaneous dance that was lauded by EOs. Dancing is not my forte, but I am not appalled by it and don’t see why people get legalistic about it…
 
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