Is our free choice real

[BobCatholic]

My thoughts have followed s similar path as Bob’s. ie. the Why Me?
However since i came to accept the lot that has been chosen for me, i consider myself blessed. In hard times the Why me has become why not me.

I don’t understand why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of others.

Bob wrote i am a second class citizen of heaven.
I am not sure but i have read that there is a hierarchy in heaven. Well Bob second class to me seems very good cause i consider myself to be on the outer fringes of said hierarchy.

I said I am a second class citizen in the kingdom of heaven (which exists here, the Church) - I am a married man with a child. Since money is evil and Christ said we should not have any, this means that monks and nuns who take the vow of poverty are first class citizens, while I am second class citizen.

But maybe I’m being egomaniacial egotistical in putting myself so high on that list.

Clearly Christ taught that Jews were #1 in his book and that gentiles are dogs. As a gentile, I am a second class. So if I’m second class in a second class, I’m really fourth class.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: “… That gives them an advantage…, they had it FAR easier than us!”
A. The difference is that of having original justice: which includes being constituted in sanctifying grace and having access to immortality in the Tree of Life (a preternatural gift).
Advantage: a condition or circumstance that puts one in a favorable or superior position.
It does not seem to be of a favorable or superior position to me, however, since God gives grace to each in proportion to circumstances that one be able to remain in a state of sanctifying grace. That is a dogma of faith.

I disagree.

I’ve tried to get closer to God and failed. I’ve hit a wall.
I’ve tried to increase in sanctity and hit a wall.
No matter how much I try, I can’t seem to become a better person. I don’t suffer well. I cannot suffer with a big juicy smile on my face.

You wrote: “You keep saying that if it was easier for us to get to heaven, then we have no free will. But if it is easier to go to hell, we have free will.”
A. No, I keep saying what the Church teaches that God gave us free will, without any reference to difficulty.

No. You said that if someone had no ability to sin, they had no free will. I replied that Mother Mary and the angels must not have free will.

I just took your statement to the next step: Low difficulty = no free will, high difficulty = free will. I’m on the opposite side: High difficulty = lower free will, low difficulty = higher free will.

A. If God were silent then there would have been no prophets, Incarnation, Gospel, nor grace through the Holy Spirit, and no divine providence.

You’re talking about public revelation, applicable to everyone. I’m talking about private one on one conversations.

There’s a difference between a no parking sign posted on the street and a cop telling you to move your car because that place is a dangerous place to park and no sign was posted yet. Sometimes general revelation is not enough.

You wrote: “It seems to me that the mystics and saints have that relationship with God I am seeking, the trustful Abba relationship. The rest of the Catholics have this lack of God talking to them personally.”
A. Some people have charismatic gifts.

Yes, and they don’t seem to work on my son. Those gifts are subject to God’s will, and those gifts cannot overrule God’s will.

I must be an ego-maniacal narcissist to think I could ever have a relationship with God that is only reserved for saints and mystics, since I am neither saint nor mystic.

I must therefore conclude that the corporate relationship with God is the only thing I can have during my time on earth, and I just have to be grateful for even having that. I, after all, am a gentile, and am eating from the crumbs left by the children. I am, after all, a husband and father, not a monk, and am a fourth class citizen in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: "I disagree. "
A. With the dogma ?

You wrote: “No matter how much I try, I can’t seem to become a better person”
A. Luke 18
26 And they that heard it, said: Who then can be saved? 27 He said to them: The things that are impossible with men, are possible with God.

You wrote: “No. You said that if someone had no ability to sin, they had no free will. I replied that Mother Mary and the angels must not have free will.”
A. What is correct is that free will is essential characteristic of man and angels. Free will allows one to take responsibility for moral actions. All actions of man are not voluntary however.

You wrote: “I just took your statement to the next step”
A. An incorrect conclusion.

You wrote: “You’re talking about public revelation, applicable to everyone. I’m talking about private one on one conversations”
A. There are also some gifts of the Holy Ghost specially intended for the sanctification of the person who receives them: wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety (godliness), and fear of the Lord. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote:

Summa Theologiae > First Part > Question 12 How God is known by us, Article 13. Whether by grace a higher knowledge of God can be obtained than by natural reason?
I answer that, We have a more perfect knowledge of God by grace than by natural reason. Which is proved thus. The knowledge which we have by natural reason contains two things: images derived from the sensible objects; and the natural intelligible light, enabling us to abstract from them intelligible conceptions.

Now in both of these, human knowledge is assisted by the revelation of grace. For the intellect’s natural light is strengthened by the infusion of gratuitous light; and sometimes also the images in the human imagination are divinely formed, so as to express divine things better than those do which we receive from sensible objects, as appears in prophetic visions; while sometimes sensible things, or even voices, are divinely formed to express some divine meaning; as in the Baptism, the Holy Ghost was seen in the shape of a dove, and the voice of the Father was heard, “This is My beloved Son” (Matthew 3:17).

newadvent.org/summa/1012.htm

You wrote: "Sometimes general revelation is not enough. "
A. That is why we have the Magisterium of the Church which the Holy Spirit guides.

Also for God’s justice and mercy, St. Thomas Aquinas wrote:

S.T. I:Q21

There are two kinds of justice.

1)The one consists in mutual giving and receiving, as in buying and selling, and other kinds of intercourse and exchange. This the Philosopher (Ethic. v, 4) calls commutative justice, that directs exchange and intercourse of business. This does not belong to God, since, as the Apostle says: “Who hath first given to Him, and recompense shall be made him?” (Romans 11:35).

1. The other consists in distribution, and is called distributive justice; whereby a ruler or a steward gives to each what his rank deserves. As then the proper order displayed in ruling a family or any kind of multitude evinces justice of this kind in the ruler, so the order of the universe, which is seen both in effects of nature and in effects of will, shows forth the justice of God. Hence Dionysius says (Div. Nom. viii, 4): “We must needs see that God is truly just, in seeing how He gives to all existing things what is proper to the condition of each; and preserves the nature of each in the order and with the powers that properly belong to it.”

**Mercy is especially to be attributed to God, as seen in its effect, but not as an affection of passion. **

In proof of which it must be considered that a person is said to be merciful [misericors], as being, so to speak, sorrowful at heart [miserum cor]; being affected with sorrow at the misery of another as though it were his own. Hence it follows that he endeavors to dispel the misery of this other, as if it were his; and this is the effect of mercy.

1. To sorrow, therefore, over the misery of others belongs not to God;
2. but it does most properly belong to Him to dispel that misery, whatever be the defect we call by that name. Now defects are not removed, except by the perfection of some kind of goodness; and the primary source of goodness is God, as shown above (I:6:4). It must, however, be considered that to bestow perfections appertains not only to the divine goodness, but also to His justice, liberality, and mercy; yet under different aspects.

• The communicating of perfections, absolutely considered, appertains to goodness, as shown above (I:6:1 and I:6:4);
• in so far as perfections are given to things in proportion, the bestowal of them belongs to justice, as has been already said (Article 1);
• in so far as God does not bestow them for His own use, but only on account of His goodness, it belongs to liberality;
• n so far as perfections given to things by God expel defects, it belongs to mercy.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: "I disagree. "
A. With the dogma ?

I disagree with your statement that advantage is irrelevant. If one has an advantage, they are in a superior position.

I see a big difference between:

• Making something easier on someone
  versus
• making something harder on someone

You wrote: “No matter how much I try, I can’t seem to become a better person”
A. Luke 18
26 And they that heard it, said: Who then can be saved? 27 He said to them: The things that are impossible with men, are possible with God.

If God wills it, it is possible. If God does not will it, it is impossible.

You wrote: “You’re talking about public revelation, applicable to everyone. I’m talking about private one on one conversations”
A. There are also some gifts of the Holy Ghost specially intended for the sanctification of the person who receives them: wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety (godliness), and fear of the Lord. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote:

If God wills to give the gifts, then things are good. If God does not will it, game over, no way to move up.

You wrote: "Sometimes general revelation is not enough. "
A. That is why we have the Magisterium of the Church which the Holy Spirit guides.

But the Magisterium does not provide individual guidance. Just general guidance.

.

In proof of which it must be considered that a person is said to be merciful [misericors], as being, so to speak, sorrowful at heart [miserum cor]; being affected with sorrow at the misery of another as though it were his own. Hence it follows that he endeavors to dispel the misery of this other, as if it were his; and this is the effect of mercy.

So when will God dispel the misery of my life?

I must be an ego-maniacal narcissist to think I could ever have a personal relationship with God that is only reserved for saints and mystics, since I am neither saint nor mystic.

I must therefore conclude that the corporate relationship with God is the only thing I can have during my time on earth, and I just have to be grateful for even having that. I, after all, am a gentile, and am eating from the crumbs left by the children. I am, after all, a husband and father, not a monk, and am a fourth class citizen in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Vonsalza]

Holy smokes, you guys are still going at it?

I don’t think there’s going to be a “winner” here.

 

[BobCatholic]

Holy smokes, you guys are still going at it?

I don’t think there’s going to be a “winner” here.

Well if I never figure it out, the guy downstairs wins, and I hate him and don’t want him to win.

I’m grateful for Vico’s patience and willingness to explain.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “I see a big difference between: * Making something easier on someone versus * making something harder on someone”
A. God gives the ability to one in a state of sanctifying grace in proportion to the difficulty of their temptation, such that one can remain in that state of grace. So it makes no sense saying it was easier to remain without mortal sin for Adam and Eve.

You wrote: "…no way to move up. "
A. Move up to where?

You wrote: “But the Magisterium does not provide individual guidance. Just general guidance.”
A. The confessor gives specific guidance. CIC Can. 978 §1. In hearing confessions the priest is to remember that he is equally a judge and a physician and has been established by God as a minister of divine justice and mercy, so that he has regard for the divine honor and the salvation of souls.

You wrote: “So when will God dispel the misery of my life?”
A. “so far as perfections given to things by God expel defects, it belongs to mercy”. Same Query from S.T.:

Objection 3. Further, many just persons are afflicted in this world; which is unjust. Therefore not in every work of God are justice and mercy.

Reply to Objection 3. Justice and mercy appear in the punishment of the just in this world, since by afflictions lesser faults are cleansed in them, and they are the more raised up from earthly affections to God. As to this Gregory says (Moral. xxvi, 9): “The evils that press on us in this world force us to go to God.”

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: “I see a big difference between: * Making something easier on someone versus * making something harder on someone”
A. God gives the ability to one in a state of sanctifying grace in proportion to the difficulty of their temptation, such that one can remain in that state of grace. So it makes no sense saying it was easier to remain without mortal sin for Adam and Eve.

There is no promise that God MUST give the ability, in fact, he has not done that for me. If God DID promise, then he broke that promise with me many times.

You wrote: "…no way to move up. "
A. Move up to where?

To higher levels of sanctity.

You wrote: “But the Magisterium does not provide individual guidance. Just general guidance.”
A. The confessor gives specific guidance. CIC Can. 978 §1. In hearing confessions the priest is to remember that he is equally a judge and a physician and has been established by God as a minister of divine justice and mercy, so that he has regard for the divine honor and the salvation of souls.

Unless the confessor is my spiritual director (VERY HARD TO FIND) the confessor gives a general piece of advice he’s been giving to 100 other people.

You wrote: “So when will God dispel the misery of my life?”
A. “so far as perfections given to things by God expel defects, it belongs to mercy”. Same Query from S.T.:

I agree, when God does good things like this, it is His Mercy at work. But how do I get This Mercy?

Objection 3. Further, many just persons are afflicted in this world; which is unjust. Therefore not in every work of God are justice and mercy.

Reply to Objection 3. Justice and mercy appear in the punishment of the just in this world, since by afflictions lesser faults are cleansed in them, and they are the more raised up from earthly affections to God. As to this Gregory says (Moral. xxvi, 9): “The evils that press on us in this world force us to go to God.”

Or God could have just created us perfect like He did with the Angels and Mary.

I don’t understand why God creates us as wheat, only to be put under the millstone and ground to a fine powder and then baked into bread, to be consecrated into the Eucharist when God could have just created us in the bread stage in the first place.

I don’t understand why God creates us as grapes, only to be stomped on, then the juice fermented to wine, to be consecrated into the Eucharist, when God could have created us as wine in the first place.

Far less painful (but that’s considered evil).

I must be an ego-maniacal narcissist to think I could ever have a personal relationship with God that is only reserved for saints and mystics, since I am neither saint nor mystic.

I must therefore conclude that the corporate relationship with God is the only thing I can have during my time on earth, and I just have to be grateful for even having that. I, after all, am a gentile, and am eating from the crumbs left by the children. I am, after all, a husband and father, not a monk, and am a fourth class citizen in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “There is no promise that God MUST give the ability…”
A. Yes, dogma of faith posted before that for those in the state of sanctifying grace to can remain in it. The only way to loose that is by mortal sin, and mortal sin is through free will choice.

You wrote: “To higher levels of sanctity.”
A. That is gained through meritorious acts which can be obtained only when in the state of sanctifying grace.

You wrote: “Unless the confessor is my spiritual director (VERY HARD TO FIND) the confessor gives a general piece of advice he’s been giving to 100 other people.”
A. Yet they exist, also the pastor and bishop, by appointment.

You wrote: “But how do I get This Mercy?”
A. Catechism
1847 "God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us."116 To receive his mercy, we must admit our faults. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."117

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

You wrote: “Or God could have just created us perfect like He did with the Angels and Mary.”
A. The bible states that one third of the angels fell. The Blessed Virgin May was saved by Jesus Christ, she said, Luke 1:
46 And Mary said: “My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
47 my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
48 For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness;
behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
49 The Mighty One has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.
50 His mercy is from age to age
to those who fear him.
51 He has shown might with his arm,
dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart.
52 He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones
but lifted up the lowly.
53 The hungry he has filled with good things;
the rich he has sent away empty.
54 He has helped Israel his servant,
remembering his mercy,
55 according to his promise to our fathers,
to Abraham and to his descendants forever.”

St Paul. 1 Cor 15
8 And last of all, he was seen also by me, as by one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God, I am what I am; and his grace in me hath not been void, but I have laboured more abundantly than all they: yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11 For whether I, or they, so we preach, and so you have believed.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: “There is no promise that God MUST give the ability…”
A. Yes, dogma of faith posted before that for those in the state of sanctifying grace to can remain in it. The only way to loose that is by mortal sin, and mortal sin is through free will choice.

You didn’t answer my objection.

God did not promise to make it easier for me to carry my cross, he only promised I’d have one. Adam and Eve’s cross is far easier (in Garden) than ours.

You wrote: “To higher levels of sanctity.”
A. That is gained through meritorious acts which can be obtained only when in the state of sanctifying grace.

I’m stuck in a catch-22.

If I’m fooling myself (and I can’t say I am not, because I’m imperfect) - then I could be in a state of mortal sin instead of grace, and I would not know. In addition, there’s no way to know if one is in a state of grace. Joan of Arc’s quote notwithstanding.

So if I’m not in a state of grace, nothing I do is good enough for God and it is not meritorious, and thus a waste of time and effort. If I am, then yes, it works.

A. Yet they exist, also the pastor and bishop, by appointment.

Spiritual directors exist for people in various states of life, I was looking for Opus Dei because I like St. Escriva’s view on married people, which gave me hope that maybe I’m not just a 4th class peon.

1847 "God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us."116 To receive his mercy, we must admit our faults. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."117
​

Confession does not obtain temporal mercy. So how to get temporal mercy from God?

A. The bible states that one third of the angels fell. The Blessed Virgin May was saved by Jesus Christ, she said, Luke 1:

Paul and Mary are awesome people, that God did awesome things in.

I’m a 4th class peon in the kingdom of God, if I am even lucky to get that high rank.

I must be an ego-maniacal narcissist to think I could ever have a personal relationship with God that is only reserved for saints and mystics, since I am neither saint nor mystic.

I must therefore conclude that the corporate relationship with God is the only thing I can have during my time on earth, and I just have to be grateful for even having that. I, after all, am a gentile, and am eating from the crumbs left by the children. I am, after all, a husband and father, not a monk, and am a fourth class citizen in the kingdom of heaven.​

 

[ANV]

Free will is confusing enough, is it bond to a place, is there free will in Heaven and Hell, if there is then why a sinner in Hell can’t repent and the one in Heaven can’t disobey god?

Did the saints truly have free will, what about Mary and prophets, did their visions and abilities influence their free will.
If God represents himself to me right now in such obvious ways, as visions and apparitions or prophecies, like it happened with prophets and saints, we will probably follow him, if not out of love then out of fear of what could happen if we disobey his orders. Then where’s the free will?

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “You didn’t answer my objection. God did not promise to make it easier for me to carry my cross, he only promised I’d have one. Adam and Eve’s cross is far easier (in Garden) than ours.”
A. Our cross stands for whatever pain or endurance undergone and voluntarily accepted, in order to be joined with Christ and co-operate in the salvation of souls. God gives the ability to one in a state of sanctifying grace in proportion to the difficulty of their temptation, such that one can remain in that state of grace (it is a dogma of faith). So it makes no sense saying it was easier to remain without mortal sin for Adam and Eve.

You wrote: “So if I’m not in a state of grace, nothing I do is good enough for God and it is not meritorious, and thus a waste of time and effort. If I am, then yes, it works.”
A. There is no certainty of a no-win (Catch-22) situation.

You wrote: “Spiritual directors exist for people in various states of life, I was looking for Opus Dei because I like St. Escriva’s view on married people, which gave me hope that maybe I’m not just a 4th class peon.”
A. I hope you find one there.

You wrote: “Confession does not obtain temporal mercy. So how to get temporal mercy from God?”
A. That is not a term the Church uses. We all suffer in our lives, and you cannot escape it. When it is accepted voluntarily then it can be offered to God. Divine mercy is to remove all the punishment due to sin, for example in baptism.

 

[BobCatholic]

A. Our cross stands for whatever pain or endurance undergone and voluntarily accepted, in order to be joined with Christ and co-operate in the salvation of souls.

What about those which are involuntarily accepted? Where we have no choice? They’re worthless? Even if joined with the cross of Christ?

God gives the ability to one in a state of sanctifying grace in proportion to the difficulty of their temptation, such that one can remain in that state of grace (it is a dogma of faith).

Where does it say this? Catechism cite please.

So it makes no sense saying it was easier to remain without mortal sin for Adam and Eve.

It didn’t work for Adam and Eve. So it is even weaker for us.

A. There is no certainty of a no-win (Catch-22) situation.

And that’s why I am stuck in a catch-22.

You wrote: “Confession does not obtain temporal mercy. So how to get temporal mercy from God?”
A. That is not a term the Church uses. We all suffer in our lives, and you cannot escape it. When it is accepted voluntarily then it can be offered to God. Divine mercy is to remove all the punishment due to sin, for example in baptism.

So there’s no way to get temporal mercy? God’s mercy is therefore limited only to the spiritual?

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “What about those which are involuntarily accepted? Where we have no choice? They’re worthless? Even if joined with the cross of Christ?”
A. What is not voluntarily accepted in order to be joined with Christ and co-operate in the salvation of souls is not called our cross. Our cross is an imitation of Christ, the Lamb.

You wrote: “It didn’t work for Adam and Eve. So it is even weaker for us.”
A. They had the state of sanctifying grace, so could have remained without mortal sin.

You wrote: “Where does it say this? Catechism cite please.”
A. You read it before. Council of Trent, Session VI (Denzinger)

Chap. II. The Observance of the Commandments, and the Necessity and Possibility thereof

804 But no one, however much justified, should consider himself exempt from the observance of the commandments [can. 20]; no one should make use of that rash statement forbidden under an anathema by the Fathers, that the commandments of God are impossible to observe for a man who is justified [can. 18 and 22: cf. n. 200]. “For God does not command impossibilities, but by commanding admonishes you both to do what you can do, and to pray for what you cannot do, and assists you that you may be able”; * “whose commandments are not heavy” [1 John 5:3], “whose yoke is sweet and whose burden is light” [Matt. 11:30]. For they who are the sons of God, love Christ: “but they who love him, (as He Himself testifies) keep his words” [John 14:23], which indeed with the divine help they can do. For although in this mortal life men however holy and just fall at times into at least light and daily sins, which are also called venial [can. 23], they do not for that reason cease to be just. For that word of the just, “Forgive us our trespasses” [Matt. 6:12; cf. n.107], is both humble and true. Thus it follows that the just ought to feel themselves more bound to walk in the way of justice, in that having been now “freed from sin and made servants of God” [Rom. 6:22], “living soberly and justly and piously” [Tit. 2:12], they can proceed onwards through Christ Jesus, through whom they “have access unto this grace” [Rom. 5:2]. For God “does not forsake those who have once been justified by His grace, unless He be first forsaken by them.” * And so no one should flatter himself because of faith alone [can. 9, 19, 20], thinking that by faith alone he is made an heir and will obtain the inheritance, even though he suffer not with Christ “that he may be also glorified” [Rom. 8:17]. For even Christ Himself (as the Apostle says), “whereas he was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered and being made perfect he was made to all who obey him the cause of eternal salvation” [Heb. 5:8 ff.] For this reason the Apostle himself admonishes those justified saying: “Know you not, that they who run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that you may obtain. I therefore so run, not as at an uncertainty, I so fight, not as one beating the air, but I chastise my body and bring it under subjection, lest perhaps when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway” [1 Cor. 9:24ff.]. So also the chief of the Apostles, Peter: “Labor the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election; for doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” [2 Pet. 1:10]. Thence it is clear that they are opposed to the teaching of orthodox religion who say that the just man sins at least venially in every good work [can. 25], or (what is more intolerable) that he merits eternal punishments; and that they also who declare that the just sin in all works, if in those works, in order to stimulate their own sloth and to encourage themselves to run in the race, with this (in view), that above all God may be glorified, they have in view also the eternal reward [can. 26, 31], since it is written: “I have inclined my heart to do thy justifications on account of the reward” [Ps. 118:112], and of Moses the Apostle says, that he “looked to the reward” [Heb. 11:26].

Can. 18. If anyone shall say that the commandments of God are even for a man who is justified and confirmed in grace impossible to observe: let him be anathema.

You wrote: “And that’s why I am stuck in a catch-22.”
A. Catch-22 refers to no-win. The point is that you do not know it is no-win.

You wrote: "So there’s no way to get temporal mercy? God’s mercy is therefore limited only to the spiritual?
A. Temporal mercy is not a term the Church uses. Divine mercy is to remove the punishment due to sin, for example in baptism. You already read the Catechism on baptism which removes the stain of original sin and all guilt and temporal punishment for actual sins.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: “What about those which are involuntarily accepted? Where we have no choice? They’re worthless? Even if joined with the cross of Christ?”
A. What is not voluntarily accepted in order to be joined with Christ and co-operate in the salvation of souls is not called our cross. Our cross is an imitation of Christ, the Lamb.

So someone is stricken with cancer and suffers, there is no choice there. They cannot accept it and unite it to the cross of Christ and it have any value.

I remember Fulton Sheen mentioning that those in the hospital have wasted their suffering if they did not unite it to the Cross of Jesus Christ. I guess he must be wrong.

You wrote: “It didn’t work for Adam and Eve. So it is even weaker for us.”
A. They had the state of sanctifying grace, so could have remained without mortal sin.

Their state of grace did not fix their huge amount of imperfections. And they fell.
In addition, we have 50,000 times more imperfections. And we think we are not going to fall? That’s egotistical

Can. 18. If anyone shall say that the commandments of God are even for a man who is justified and confirmed in grace impossible to observe: let him be anathema.

OK, then why can’t I improve? Why am I stuck with a brick wall in my face and I can’t get better than I am now? I’m stuck.

You wrote: “And that’s why I am stuck in a catch-22.”
A. Catch-22 refers to no-win. The point is that you do not know it is no-win.

The fact I do not know MAKES it a catch-22.

If I am fooling myself, and think I am in a state of grace, and continue as I am now, I’ll find out the hard way when I die and elevator down.

If I’m not fooling myself, and I can’t get better than I am now, then at the end of my life, I will have elevator down because I’m not perfect.

You wrote: "So there’s no way to get temporal mercy? God’s mercy is therefore limited only to the spiritual?
A. Temporal mercy is not a term the Church uses. Divine mercy is to remove the punishment due to sin, for example in baptism. You already read the Catechism on baptism which removes the stain of original sin and all guilt and temporal punishment for actual sins.

I think you’re missing something I wrote, perhaps I miscommunicated?

If someone has a bad thing in their life (i.e. misfortune, suffering, etc.) and God removes it, God makes their life easier to handle. That’s a mercy, in my opinion. God makes it easier to carry their cross.

So you say there is no such thing as temporal mercy. God’s mercy is thus limited to only the spiritual. God only cares about the spiritual and not the temporal.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote": “So someone is stricken with cancer and suffers, there is no choice there. They cannot accept it and unite it to the cross of Christ and it have any value.” and "
I remember Fulton Sheen mentioning that those in the hospital have wasted their suffering if they did not unite it to the Cross of Jesus Christ. I guess he must be wrong."
A. I wrote: “What is not voluntarily accepted in order to be joined with Christ and co-operate in the salvation of souls is not called our cross. Our cross is an imitation of Christ, the Lamb.” A person can voluntarily offer suffering that occurs involuntarily.

You wrote: “Their state of grace did not fix their huge amount of imperfections.” And they fell.
A. Grace allows one to overcome temptation with their cooperation. That is how the free will allows one to take responsibility.

You wrote: “OK, then why can’t I improve? Why am I stuck with a brick wall in my face and I can’t get better than I am now? I’m stuck.”
A. You said can’t. How do you know that is true?

You wrote: “The fact I do not know MAKES it a catch-22.”
A. You are saying it it a fact that you cannot win. So God revealed it to you then?

You wrote: “If I am fooling myself, and think I am in a state of grace, and continue as I am now, I’ll find out the hard way when I die and elevator down.”
A. Same for everyone. Philippians 2
12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation. 13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.

You wrote: “That’s a mercy, in my opinion. God makes it easier to carry their cross.”
A. No, that would be God reducing the cross. Luke 22
41 And he was withdrawn away from them a stone’s cast; and kneeling down, he prayed,
42 Saying: Father, if thou wilt, remove this chalice from me: but yet not my will, but thine be done.
43 And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony, he prayed the longer.
44 And his sweat became as drops of blood, trickling down upon the ground…

You wrote: “So you say there is no such thing as temporal mercy. God’s mercy is thus limited to only the spiritual.”
A. I wrote: “Temporal mercy is not a term the Church uses. Divine mercy is to remove the punishment due to sin, for example in baptism. You already read the Catechism on baptism which removes the stain of original sin and all guilt and temporal punishment for actual sins.” Some of what is removed at baptism is temporal.

You wrote: “God only cares about the spiritual and not the temporal.”
A. How can you surmise that God does not care about temporal? The Catechism states:
302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:

By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, “reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well”. For “all are open and laid bare to his eyes”, even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures.161​

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: “Their state of grace did not fix their huge amount of imperfections.” And they fell.
A. Grace allows one to overcome temptation with their cooperation. That is how the free will allows one to take responsibility.

But how does one know if they are cooperating properly if they have no way of knowing if they are doing it right?

You wrote: “OK, then why can’t I improve? Why am I stuck with a brick wall in my face and I can’t get better than I am now? I’m stuck.”
A. You said can’t. How do you know that is true?

Ten years of no growth. That tells me I can’t go better on my own effort.

You wrote: “The fact I do not know MAKES it a catch-22.”
A. You are saying it it a fact that you cannot win. So God revealed it to you then?

How does one know what they don’t know they should know? They should know something, they don’t know it, but there’s no way to find out?

That’s the catch-22.

For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.

This is a general statement. not specific to me.

There’s no guarantee of final perseverance given in scripture or private revelation.

You wrote: “That’s a mercy, in my opinion. God makes it easier to carry their cross.”
A. No, that would be God reducing the cross.

which is reducing temporal punishment on someone, and that is what mercy is about. Mercy is about eliminating or reducing punishment.

You wrote: “So you say there is no such thing as temporal mercy. God’s mercy is thus limited to only the spiritual.”
A. I wrote: “Temporal mercy is not a term the Church uses. Divine mercy is to remove the punishment due to sin, for example in baptism. You already read the Catechism on baptism which removes the stain of original sin and all guilt and temporal punishment for actual sins.” Some of what is removed at baptism is temporal.

I know that temporal mercy is not a term the Church uses. That’s because there is no such thing. God has never promised to show mercy on us in temporal things, only in spiritual things. This is because God only cares about the spiritual, not the temporal.

You wrote: “God only cares about the spiritual and not the temporal.”

When He says no to prayers for legitimate things. Allegedly he will make better things happen (those are spiritual things, not temporal).

My son will be healed of his mental disease in heaven, not here on earth.
My ability to earn a living will be healed in heaven, not here on earth.

God only cares about things that are spiritual, not the temporal.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “But how does one know if they are cooperating properly if they have no way of knowing if they are doing it right?”
A. We may have assurance of salvation but not infallible certitude, unless it is Divinely revealed.

You wrote: “Ten years of no growth. That tells me I can’t go better on my own effort.”
A. You did not say own effort before. What is impossible for man is possible with God.

You wrote: “… but there’s no way to find out? That’s the catch-22.”
A. There is no certainty of no-win.

You wrote: “There’s no guarantee of final perseverance given in scripture or private revelation.”
A. Guarantee is not what was said, but that one can keep the commandments (not fall into mortal sin) once justified. This is not something that is done by God alone, but through free will cooperation with God.

You wrote: “which is reducing temporal punishment on someone, and that is what mercy is about. Mercy is about eliminating or reducing punishment.”
A. The original comment was about our cross. What is voluntarily accepted in order to be joined with Christ and co-operate in the salvation of souls is called our cross. The cross is not necessarily accepting temporal punishment due sin.

You wrote: “When He says no to prayers for legitimate things. Allegedly he will make better things happen (those are spiritual things, not temporal).”
A. Jesus healed physically and so did the Apostles and there are miraculous healings through history of a physical type. Jesus often said “your faith has healed you”.
Luke 7:19 And he said to him: Arise, go thy way; for thy faith hath made thee whole.

You wrote: “My son will be healed of his mental disease in heaven, not here on earth. My ability to earn a living will be healed in heaven, not here on earth.”
A. So then you have had the future revealed to you by God?

You wrote: “God only cares about things that are spiritual, not the temporal.”
A. The soul is spiritual and the body is temporal and the person is both, for the soul and body are incomplete substances.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: “But how does one know if they are cooperating properly if they have no way of knowing if they are doing it right?”
A. We may have assurance of salvation but not infallible certitude, unless it is Divinely revealed.

How can I have ANY assurance if I’m not getting feedback? If I’m ignored by God, that’s pretty much abandonment to the devil.

You wrote: “Ten years of no growth. That tells me I can’t go better on my own effort.”
A. You did not say own effort before. What is impossible for man is possible with God.

Of course it is my effort. No growth tells me that either I’m doing enough cooperation or not enough. So which one is it? I can’t tell.

You wrote: “… but there’s no way to find out? That’s the catch-22.”
A. There is no certainty of no-win.

So how do I find out if God won’t tell me?

This is not something that is done by God alone, but through free will cooperation with God.

And how does one know if they are cooperating “good enough”?

You wrote: “which is reducing temporal punishment on someone, and that is what mercy is about. Mercy is about eliminating or reducing punishment.”
A. The original comment was about our cross.

OK, so address my comment. Reducing spiritual punishment is a mercy. Why is not reducing temporal punishment or suffering not a mercy?

You wrote: “When He says no to prayers for legitimate things. Allegedly he will make better things happen (those are spiritual things, not temporal).”
A. Jesus healed physically and so did the Apostles and there are miraculous healings through history of a physical type. Jesus often said “your faith has healed you”.
Luke 7:19 And he said to him: Arise, go thy way; for thy faith hath made thee whole.

I have no doubt that God heals, and that miracles happen. I have witnessed them IN OTHER PEOPLE.

But I can’t get any help in my life.

This tells me that God loves other people more than he loves me.

You wrote: “My son will be healed of his mental disease in heaven, not here on earth. My ability to earn a living will be healed in heaven, not here on earth.”
A. So then you have had the future revealed to you by God?

Scripture says there is no illness in heaven, and there is no need to earn a living in heaven. This does not require the future to be revealed to me by God, He revealed it to everyone.

You wrote: “God only cares about things that are spiritual, not the temporal.”
A. The soul is spiritual and the body is temporal and the person is both, for the soul and body are incomplete substances.

I agree. I wish God understood that, and cared about the temporal things.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “If I’m ignored by God, that’s pretty much abandonment to the devil.”
A. God gives grace so is not abandoning people.

You wrote: “And how does one know if they are cooperating “good enough”?”
A. Before was posted the teaching that one cannot be certain without a divine revelation. Same for all of us.

You wrote: “But I can’t get any help in my life.”
A. You believe that God does not help you, but that is contrary to the teachings of the Church.

You wrote: “This does not require the future to be revealed to me by God, He revealed it to everyone.”
A. You wrote “not here on earth” but do not say how you can be certain that is must wait for heaven.

You wrote: “I agree. I wish God understood that, and cared about the temporal things.”
A. Not sure what you agree with. God cares for the person that is both body and soul.

You wrote: “Reducing spiritual punishment is a mercy. Why is not reducing temporal punishment or suffering not a mercy?”
A. Generally physical healing occurs secondarily from spiritual healing. The struggle brings out something greater but sometimes there is miraculous healing Luke 22:51 But Jesus answering, said: Suffer ye thus far. And when he had touched his ear, he healed him.Catechism
1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."66 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."67