Is our free choice real

[tonyrey]

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We are not held personally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve, as explained before. We are born with simple human nature with concupiesence. God created mankind good, but not perfect. Adam and Eve were created in a better condition that we are, however they did not have the Beatific Vision so although good they were not perfect. Also God’s plan, which was revealed by Jesus Christ, is that God provides what mankind could not achieve by nature – salvation.

It seems to me that you confuse the spiritual with the physical. Supernatural grace is necessary for salvation, but physical perfection is not. God created genetics which may be damaged through natural causes and lead to physical imperfections, even in the brain. If there is something in the physical which leads to a lack of free will in a person then than person is not culpable for mortal sin.

There is no such Catholic teaching that “imperfections turn free will into a cruel joke”, in fact it is a teaching of the faith that God is perfect in all things and is both merciful and just – there is no cruelty in God. It is normal that the world is not physically perfect. The glorified bodies only come with the resurrection of those that are saved. It is normal that salvation requires sanctifying grace of God. Even in Eden, Adam and Eve were given the supernatural and preternatural gifts to be as they were, without which they would have been as we are.

Concise and decisive!

 

[BobCatholic]

.

We are not held personally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve, as explained before.

We are not held spiritually responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve, that is taken care of by Christ’s sacrifice.

But temporally, we are held responsible.

The proof being that we are not in the Garden of Eden and required to follow only one rule.

God created mankind good, but not perfect. Adam and Eve were created in a better condition that we are, however they did not have the Beatific Vision so although good they were not perfect.

My point exactly.

It seems to me that you confuse the spiritual with the physical.

actually, I don’t. I specifically mention that we are held temporally responsible not spiritually responsible.

Supernatural grace is necessary for salvation, but physical perfection is not.

I don’t make distinction between any imperfection. That doesn’t mean I confuse the two.

Whether one has spiritual or temporal imperfections, it robs them of free will.

God created genetics which may be damaged through natural causes and lead to physical imperfections, even in the brain.

Right, God has made it MORE difficult to please him, this is why it is ridiculously easy to go to hell and horrendously difficult to go to heaven.

If there is something in the physical which leads to a lack of free will in a person then than person is not culpable for mortal sin.

But they’re still held temporally responsible. Regardless of culpability.

There is no such Catholic teaching that “imperfections turn free will into a cruel joke”,

Then explain why it is ridiculously easy to go to hell - all we have to do is exist. It is our default state. But to go to heaven, despite the awesome great sacrifice of Christ (who I thought paid the entire way, but held back on the temporal) - it is horrifically difficult to go to heaven. The road to perdition is wide while the road to salvation is narrow and few people find it.

It is normal that the world is not physically perfect.

No, it is not. God created the world physically perfect - Garden of Eden was a paradise.

The glorified bodies only come with the resurrection of those that are saved.

Correct. Everything good comes after we are dead (if we make it). In the meantime, life is not a gift but a responsibility.

It is normal that salvation requires sanctifying grace of God. Even in Eden, Adam and Eve were given the supernatural and preternatural gifts to be as they were, without which they would have been as we are.

Agreed. But since we are born without them and Adam and Eve were born with them, we are treated differently and more harshly.

Let`s say that you Bob went out on a gambling spree and you lost the family home. Are your children held responsible for you losing the the family home?Why not? After all they are homeless due to what you lost.

Your example does not fit.

There is no difference between consequence and punishment, because God enforces both as the same thing.

Tell me, when Adam and Eve sinned, who wrote the rule that they must be kicked out? God did.

Who enforced that rule? God did.

Who enforced that same rule that we cannot be in the Garden of Eden? God did.

This is a punishment, not a “consequence.”

So yes, temporally speaking, we are held responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve.

If we were not, God would have said “Adam and Eve, as soon as you guys make babies, they’ll be taken by angels to the Garden of Eden and allowed to live there with only one rule.”

Nope. He never said that.

A better example is a pregnant woman commits a crime and gives birth to the baby while in jail. The baby didn’t do anything wrong, but now is in jail. The baby is held temporally responsible for the sin of her mother.

We are in the same jail cell as Adam and Eve. We have the same punishment and worse - we are born imperfect and more imperfect as the generations wear on.

 

[Vico]

We are not held spiritually responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve, that is taken care of by Christ’s sacrifice.

But temporally, we are held responsible.

The proof being that we are not in the Garden of Eden and required to follow only one rule.

My point exactly.

actually, I don’t. I specifically mention that we are held temporally responsible not spiritually responsible.

I don’t make distinction between any imperfection. That doesn’t mean I confuse the two.

Whether one has spiritual or temporal imperfections, it robs them of free will.

Right, God has made it MORE difficult to please him, this is why it is ridiculously easy to go to hell and horrendously difficult to go to heaven.

But they’re still held temporally responsible. Regardless of culpability.

Then explain why it is ridiculously easy to go to hell - all we have to do is exist. It is our default state. But to go to heaven, despite the awesome great sacrifice of Christ (who I thought paid the entire way, but held back on the temporal) - it is horrifically difficult to go to heaven. The road to perdition is wide while the road to salvation is narrow and few people find it.

No, it is not. God created the world physically perfect - Garden of Eden was a paradise.

Correct. Everything good comes after we are dead (if we make it). In the meantime, life is not a gift but a responsibility.

Agreed. But since we are born without them and Adam and Eve were born with them, we are treated differently and more harshly.

Your example does not fit.

There is no difference between consequence and punishment, because God enforces both as the same thing.

Tell me, when Adam and Eve sinned, who wrote the rule that they must be kicked out? God did.

Who enforced that rule? God did.

Who enforced that same rule that we cannot be in the Garden of Eden? God did.

This is a punishment, not a “consequence.”

So yes, temporally speaking, we are held responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve.

If we were not, God would have said “Adam and Eve, as soon as you guys make babies, they’ll be taken by angels to the Garden of Eden and allowed to live there with only one rule.”

Nope. He never said that.

A better example is a pregnant woman commits a crime and gives birth to the baby while in jail. The baby didn’t do anything wrong, but now is in jail. The baby is held temporally responsible for the sin of her mother.

We are in the same jail cell as Adam and Eve. We have the same punishment and worse - we are born imperfect and more imperfect as the generations wear on.

The Catholic teaching is that the world is not created perfect. Since you make no distinction, you have not way to distinguish betwenn spiritual and physical imperfection.

Catechism
310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.175

Also we do not perfection spiritually because we do not have the Beatific Vision, nor did Adam and Eve, even in the Garde of Eden.

The Catechism describes “The consequences of Adam’s sin for humanity”

408 The consequences of original sin and of all men’s personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John’s expression, “the sin of the world”.300 This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men’s sins.301

 

[BobCatholic]

The Catholic teaching is that the world is not created perfect. Since you make no distinction, you have not way to distinguish betwenn spiritual and physical imperfection.

Both spiritual and temporal imperfections reduce free will or eliminate it.

310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection.

Journeying implies there’s a way, to God. There is, but it is horrifically painful and difficult and few find it. To go to hell, just exist.

The scales are woefully out of balance here. This is God’s design, to make heaven this hyper exclusive country club few can get into.

Also we do not perfection spiritually because we do not have the Beatific Vision, nor did Adam and Eve, even in the Garde of Eden.

In fact, we are worse off than Adam and Eve after their fall. We are more imperfect than they were!

408 The consequences of original sin and of all men’s personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John’s expression, “the sin of the world”.300 This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men’s sins.301

And this is precisely why we are not only held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve, we are also held temporally held responsible for the sins of our ancestors, and others as well. This is Catholic teaching (citation 301 above, part of CCC 408).

 

[Vico]

Both spiritual and temporal imperfections reduce free will or eliminate it.

Journeying implies there’s a way, to God. There is, but it is horrifically painful and difficult and few find it. To go to hell, just exist.

The scales are woefully out of balance here. This is God’s design, to make heaven this hyper exclusive country club few can get into.

In fact, we are worse off than Adam and Eve after their fall. We are more imperfect than they were!

And this is precisely why we are not only held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve, we are also held temporally held responsible for the sins of our ancestors, and others as well. This is Catholic teaching (citation 301 above, part of CCC 408).

I think you mean CCC 300 not 301.

Responsible the way the Church uses it in the Catechism means the primary cause, and we are not the primary cause of anything resulting from Adam and Eve.

It is by design that we are tested but we have more grace where there is more abundance of sin. Those that commit mortal sin have done so through free will, which includes Adam and Eve.

Romans 5
20 Now the law entered in, that sin might abound. And where sin abounded, grace did more abound.

 

[BobCatholic]

I think you mean CCC 300 not 301.

Responsible the way the Church uses it in the Catechism means the primary cause, and we are not the primary cause of anything resulting from Adam and Eve.

Again, I never said we WERE responsible. I said we were HELD temporally responsible. Two different concepts. We are in the same jail cell they were in.

It is by design that we are tested but we have more grace where there is more abundance of sin. Those that commit mortal sin have done so through free will, which includes Adam and Eve.

Romans 5
20 Now the law entered in, that sin might abound. And where sin abounded, grace did more abound.

The problem is that if God does not give the grace to overcome imperfections, the imperfections win. Game over, elevator down.

The grace is all about forgiving sins, not overcoming imperfections. Imperfections make free will a practical joke at best or nonexistent at worst.

 

[fbl9]

Again, I never said we WERE responsible. I said we were HELD temporally responsible. Two different concepts. We are in the same jail cell they were in.

The problem is that if God does not give the grace to overcome imperfections, the imperfections win. Game over, elevator down.

The grace is all about forgiving sins, not overcoming imperfections. Imperfections make free will a practical joke at best or nonexistent at worst.

Actually i thought you would say my example is unworkable. Yours is better the one thing is the baby is free and not in confinement, looking through the eyes of the baby. In fact that baby is having a good life at the time, mom 24/7, food, shelter and a controlled environment.
By temporal i take you mean that we have hardships in this life. We are not in a paradise.

Bob what happens on the last day?

 

[Vico]

Again, I never said we WERE responsible. I said we were HELD temporally responsible. Two different concepts. We are in the same jail cell they were in.

The problem is that if God does not give the grace to overcome imperfections, the imperfections win. Game over, elevator down.

The grace is all about forgiving sins, not overcoming imperfections. Imperfections make free will a practical joke at best or nonexistent at worst.

We are not held responsible for that which we did not do, because God is just, and the justice of God is a dogma of the Catholic faith. Adam and Eve lost their personal gifts and entered into a natural state (the fallen state), without original justice or original holiness, but also with personal sin. We are created in that state but without personal sin. We nor Adam and Eve had any right to the gifts given becuse a gift is not an entitlement. Imperfection is part of the design of creation and this allows progression towards perfection.

“The grace is all about forgiving sins, not overcoming imperfections” is false. Catechism:

825 "The Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real though imperfect."295 In her members perfect holiness is something yet to be acquired: "Strengthened by so many and such great means of salvation, all the faithful, whatever their condition or state - though each in his own way - are called by the Lord to that perfection of sanctity by which the Father himself is perfect."296

That " the imperfections win. Game over, elevator down. " is not true because damnation is only possible for the baptised when there is a free will choice to sin, so if as you say, there was no free will act due to imperfections, then there is also no damnation for such an unfree act, i.e., no “elevator down”.

 

[fbl9]

All the gifts that Adam and Eve had pale in comparison to what faithful Christians will receive on the last day. Glorified bodies.
If we were whisked away to paradise as Bob would desire, we could never ever have glorified bodies.In order for our bodies to be glorified we would have to die first.

Grace revives that part of our soul which was struck dead by original sin. Alive in the spirit we able to bend our will to be obedient to the will of God.

 

[BobCatholic]

Actually i thought you would say my example is unworkable. Yours is better the one thing is the baby is free and not in confinement, looking through the eyes of the baby. In fact that baby is having a good life at the time, mom 24/7, food, shelter and a controlled environment.

The baby is not free, she’s in the same jail cell as her mommy. And you can say the same thing about the mom - she’s got a good life at the time, food, shelter, controlled environment. Therefore, she must be free, right?

Of course not, she’s in jail being punished.

We are in the same jail cell as Adam and Eve. We are held temporally responsible for their sin.

By temporal i take you mean that we have hardships in this life. We are not in a paradise.

Bob what happens on the last day?

Either the hardships continue and kick it up a notch (for the overwhelming vast majority) or they stop (the few).

It is ridiculously easy to go to hell. Just exist. It is ridiculously difficult to get to heaven, it takes horrific suffering.

The scales are waaaaaaaay out of balance, and thus free will is a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst.

 

[fbl9]

The baby is not free, she’s in the same jail cell as her mommy. And you can say the same thing about the mom - she’s got a good life at the time, food, shelter, controlled environment. Therefore, she must be free, right?

Of course not, she’s in jail being punished.

We are in the same jail cell as Adam and Eve. We are held temporally responsible for their sin.

Either the hardships continue and kick it up a notch (for the overwhelming vast majority) or they stop (the few).

It is ridiculously easy to go to hell. Just exist. It is ridiculously difficult to get to heaven, it takes horrific suffering.

The scales are waaaaaaaay out of balance, and thus free will is a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst.

Sorry Bob that baby is actually a prisoner of it’s mother. The baby can not move about without it’s mother.
Not really Bob just existing does not send one to hell. Knowing the gospel and refusing it sends one to hell.

 

[BobCatholic]

All the gifts that Adam and Eve had pale in comparison to what faithful Christians will receive on the last day.

This assumes one makes it to heaven. Otherwise, there is no gift.

Glorified bodies.
If we were whisked away to paradise as Bob would desire, we could never ever have glorified bodies.In order for our bodies to be glorified we would have to die first.

Why would I care about a glorified body when I could be in the Garden of Eden, in paradise, with only one rule to follow, and be able to have a conversation with God whenever he shows up? That is like 20 trillion times better than what we have here now.

The only way to get a glorified body is to endure horrific suffering and if I’m lucky to make it to heaven. There is no other way.

Grace revives that part of our soul which was struck dead by original sin. Alive in the spirit we able to bend our will to be obedient to the will of God.

Does grace overcome and heal imperfections? I know that healing imperfections is a grace, but what about the other way around? Citation please.

Sorry Bob that baby is actually a prisoner of it’s mother. The baby can not move about without it’s mother.

And the mother is being punished in jail, and the baby shares that punishment.

We are in the same jail cell as Adam and Eve, but on top of that, we are far more imperfect than they were. Our temporal punishment is worse.

Not really Bob just existing does not send one to hell.

Hell is our default state. Otherwise, Christ would not have had to die.

Knowing the gospel and refusing it sends one to hell.

That’s not enough. Gotta be perfect to go to heaven.

It is ridiculously easy to go to hell. All we have to do is exist. To go to heaven, one has to endure horrific suffering.

The scales are out of balance, and thus free will is a cruel joke at best, or nonexistent at worst.

 

[Vico]

Again, I never said we WERE responsible. I said we were HELD temporally responsible. Two different concepts. We are in the same jail cell they were in.

The problem is that if God does not give the grace to overcome imperfections, the imperfections win. Game over, elevator down.

The grace is all about forgiving sins, not overcoming imperfections. Imperfections make free will a practical joke at best or nonexistent at worst.

In addition to my first response to you on the above, you made other statements in the post to fbl9 that are incorrect:

1. “This assumes one makes it to heaven. Otherwise, there is no gift.”
   A. No, the gift given and rejected once or more, does not mean no gift was given.
2. “The only way to get a glorified body is to endure horrific suffering and if I’m lucky to make it to heaven. There is no other way.”
   A. There is no luck, but there is the grace of God that enables one to attain heaven.
3. “Does grace overcome and heal imperfections?”
   A. Grace effects justification by moving a man towards God, away from sin, which is healing.

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1. “Gotta be perfect to go to heaven.”
   A. There must be a state of sanctifying grace at the time of bodily death to go to heaven, not perfection. Council of Lyons II:

… if they die truly repentant in charity before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for (sins) committed and omitted, their souls are cleansed after death by purgatorical or purifying punishments, as Brother John has explained to us. And to relieve punishments of this kind, the offerings of the living faithful are of advantage to these, namely, the sacrifices of Masses, prayers, alms, and other duties of piety, which have customarily been performed by the faithful for the other faithful according to the regulations of the Church.However, the souls of those who after having received holy baptism have incurred no stain of sin whatever, also those souls who, after contracting the stain of sin, either while remaining in their bodies or being divested of them, have been cleansed, as we have said above, are received immediately into heaven. The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.

1. “free will is a cruel joke at best”
   A. Through the exercise of free will in cooperation with grace one attains heaven. Council of Trent:

Can. 5. If anyone shall say that after the sin of Adam man’s free will was lost and destroyed, or that it is a thing in name only, indeed a title without a reality, a fiction, moreover, brought into the Church by Satan: let him be anathema.

 

[BobCatholic]

In addition to my first response to you on the above, you made other statements in the post to fbl9 that are incorrect:

1. “This assumes one makes it to heaven. Otherwise, there is no gift.”
   A. No, the gift given and rejected once or more, does not mean no gift was given.

A rejected gift is not received. Therefore, there is no gift.

1. “The only way to get a glorified body is to endure horrific suffering and if I’m lucky to make it to heaven. There is no other way.”
   A. There is no luck, but there is the grace of God that enables one to attain heaven.

The luck is if God wills it. If God doesn’t will it, game over.

1. “Does grace overcome and heal imperfections?”
   A. Grace effects justification by moving a man towards God, away from sin, which is healing.

Only if God wills it for the individual.

1. “Gotta be perfect to go to heaven.”
   A. There must be a state of sanctifying grace at the time of bodily death to go to heaven, not perfection.

And if you bother to read the quote from Council of Lyons you posted, you’ll see that one has to be perfect. ANY imperfections, while in a state of grace, at the time of death = purgatory.

Can’t go to heaven imperfect, gotta go to purgatory first.

… if they die truly repentant in charity before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for (sins) committed and omitted,**
their souls are cleansed after death by purgatorical or purifying punishmen**
​

The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.

“original sin only” = our default state = hell, just as I said.

1. “free will is a cruel joke at best”
   A. Through the exercise of free will in cooperation with grace one attains heaven. Council of Trent:

Then why is it so ridiculously easy to go to hell but horrifically difficult to go to heaven?

The road to perdition is wide, the road to salvation is narrow and few find it.

How does one have a choice if the scales are so lopsidedly out of balance?​

 

[Vico]

A rejected gift is not received. Therefore, there is no gift.
The luck is if God wills it. If God doesn’t will it, game over.
Only if God wills it for the individual.
And if you bother to read the quote from Council of Lyons you posted, you’ll see that one has to be perfect. ANY imperfections, while in a state of grace, at the time of death = purgatory.
Can’t go to heaven imperfect, gotta go to purgatory first.
“original sin only” = our default state = hell, just as I said.
Then why is it so ridiculously easy to go to hell but horrifically difficult to go to heaven?
The road to perdition is wide, the road to salvation is narrow and few find it.
How does one have a choice if the scales are so lopsidedly out of balance?

• It is a gift even if rejected by free will, the definition of gift is “a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present.”
• No luck is involved because that is defined as “success or failure apparently brought by chance rather than through one’s own actions”.
• God wills actual grace of conversion for every individual even before conversion. Jesus Christ died for all.
• Going to heaven is determined at the particular judgment at the time of death, even though purgatorial state may occur first. In heaven is not the same as going to.
• The Church has hope for upbaptized infants that die; they have no personal sin. The thinking is that the have no Beatific Vision so are not in heaven state, however have a natural peace only, since per Augustine, merit is requried for the Beatific Vision, and the unbaptized cannot merit.
• It is easy to go to hell only for those baptized that find it easy to hate God at the moment of their death.
• One does not know that there is not balance, for one does not know how much God is helping through grace.

We are not held responsible for that which we did not do, because God is just, and the justice of God is a dogma of the Catholic faith. Adam and Eve lost their personal gifts and entered into a natural state (the fallen state), without original justice or original holiness, but also with personal sin. We are created in that state but without personal sin. We nor Adam and Eve had any right to the gifts given becuse a gift is not an entitlement. Imperfection is part of the design of creation and this allows progression towards perfection.

“The grace is all about forgiving sins, not overcoming imperfections” is false. Catechism:
825 "The Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real though imperfect."295 In her members perfect holiness is something yet to be acquired: "Strengthened by so many and such great means of salvation, all the faithful, whatever their condition or state - though each in his own way - are called by the Lord to that perfection of sanctity by which the Father himself is perfect."296
That " the imperfections win. Game over, elevator down. " is not true because damnation is only possible for the baptised when there is a free will choice to sin, so if as you say, there was no free will act due to imperfections, then there is also no damnation for such an unfree act, i.e., no “elevator down”.

 

[BobCatholic]

• It is a gift even if rejected by free will, the definition of gift is “a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present.”

Life is not a gift, it is a responsibility, and thus a payment is required.

• No luck is involved because that is defined as “success or failure apparently brought by chance rather than through one’s own actions”.

So what is “success or failure apparently brought by God’s decision rather than through one’s own actions”? If God chooses not to help, game over.

• God wills actual grace of conversion for every individual even before conversion. Jesus Christ died for all.

Unfortunately, God’s will in this area is not guaranteed to be carried out.

However, God’s will for all to suffer during mortal life IS guaranteed to be carried out.

• It is easy to go to hell only for those baptized that find it easy to hate God at the moment of their death.

Hell is our default destination, this is Catholic teaching.

• One does not know that there is not balance, for one does not know how much God is helping through grace.

Number of saints = how many?
Number of Catholics: over a billion. Number of Christians total 2 billion.
Number of people in the world = 7 billion.

The proportion is huge that are not saints, and if one is not a saint, elevator down.

We are not held responsible for that which we did not do, because God is just, and the justice of God is a dogma of the Catholic faith.

There’s a difference between someone being not responsible versus not being held responsible.

We are held temporally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve because we are in the same jail cell as they were.

We are created in that state but without personal sin.

In addition to being created far more imperfect than Adam and Eve were, and that means we are at a disadvantage from day one.

We nor Adam and Eve had any right to the gifts given becuse a gift is not an entitlement.

A gift yanked is not a sign of generosity. Especially when we did not do the wrong that caused Adam and Eve’s gift to be yanked.

Imperfection is part of the design of creation and this allows progression towards perfection.

Imperfection makes it ridiculously easy to sin and horrifically difficult to overcome sin.

“The grace is all about forgiving sins, not overcoming imperfections” is false. Catechism:
825 "The Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real though imperfect."295 In her members perfect holiness is something yet to be acquired:

That Catechism citation actually says the opposite of what you said.
The sanctity is imperfect so that imperfection was not overcome by grace.
And since holiness is yet to be acquired, that shows they are still imperfect - and grace didn’t fix that.

“Strengthened by so many and such great means of salvation, all the faithful, whatever their condition or state - though each in his own way - are called by the Lord to that perfection of sanctity by which the Father himself is perfect.”

Called yes.
Given the money to pay the proverbial phone bill to hear the call, no.

That " the imperfections win. Game over, elevator down. " is not true because damnation is only possible for the baptised when there is a free will choice to sin, so if as you say, there was no free will act due to imperfections, then there is also no damnation for such an unfree act, i.e., no “elevator down”.

As I said before: Imperfections reduce free will or eliminate it altogether. This is Catholic teaching.

Regardless of culpability, one is held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve, and our ancestors.

Remember, only saints go to heaven. Imperfections keep people from becoming saints. Not a saint when the life is over? Elevator down.

God CAN help someone overcome their imperfections and become a saint.

That is, if he wills it for that particular individual.

God is limited by his will.

 

[Vico]

Life is not a gift, it is a responsibility, and thus a payment is required.
So what is “success or failure apparently brought by God’s decision rather than through one’s own actions”? If God chooses not to help, game over.
Unfortunately, God’s will in this area is not guaranteed to be carried out.
However, God’s will for all to suffer during mortal life IS guaranteed to be carried out.
Hell is our default destination, this is Catholic teaching.
Number of saints = how many?
Number of Catholics: over a billion. Number of Christians total 2 billion.
Number of people in the world = 7 billion.
The proportion is huge that are not saints, and if one is not a saint, elevator down.
There’s a difference between someone being not responsible versus not being held responsible.
We are held temporally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve because we are in the same jail cell as they were.
In addition to being created far more imperfect than Adam and Eve were, and that means we are at a disadvantage from day one.
A gift yanked is not a sign of generosity. Especially when we did not do the wrong that caused Adam and Eve’s gift to be yanked.
Imperfection makes it ridiculously easy to sin and horrifically difficult to overcome sin.
That Catechism citation actually says the opposite of what you said.
The sanctity is imperfect so that imperfection was not overcome by grace.
And since holiness is yet to be acquired, that shows they are still imperfect - and grace didn’t fix that.
Called yes.
Given the money to pay the proverbial phone bill to hear the call, no.
As I said before: Imperfections reduce free will or eliminate it altogether. This is Catholic teaching.
Regardless of culpability, one is held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve, and our ancestors.
Remember, only saints go to heaven. Imperfections keep people from becoming saints. Not a saint when the life is over? Elevator down.
God CAN help someone overcome their imperfections and become a saint.
That is, if he wills it for that particular individual.
God is limited by his will.

1. "Life is not a gift, it is a responsibility, and thus a payment is required. "
   A. The gift is grace not life that is the subject of the comment.
2. “Unfortunately, God’s will in this area is not guaranteed to be carried out.”
   A. Dogma of faith is contrary to your statement: God through His providence, protects and guides all that He has created. (De fide.) – Vatican I – “But God protects and governs by His providence all things which He created, “reaching from end to end mightily and ordering all things sweetly” [cf. Wisd. 8:1]. For “all things are naked and open to His eyes” Heb. 4:13], even those which by the free action of creatures are in the future.”
3. “The proportion is huge that are not saints, and if one is not a saint, elevator down.”
   A. Only God know how many saints there are and the proportion.
4. “We are held temporally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve because we are in the same jail cell as they were.” and “A gift yanked is not a sign of generosity. Especially when we did not do the wrong that caused Adam and Eve’s gift to be yanked.”
   A. No, they suffered because they were given gifts which they had no right to, and lost them. But we were not given the same gifts so did not loose them.
5. “That Catechism citation actually says the opposite of what you said. The sanctity is imperfect so that imperfection was not overcome by grace. And since holiness is yet to be acquired, that shows they are still imperfect - and grace didn’t fix that.”
   A. No, you have it wrong, it is a process only completed after death with the Beatific Vision. Grace does work during the entire lifetime in the process of perfecting.
6. “Remember, only saints go to heaven. Imperfections keep people from becoming saints. Not a saint when the life is over? Elevator down.”
   A. For the baptized, if as you say, there was no free will act due to imperfections, then there is also no damnation for such an unfree act, i.e., no “elevator down”. That can only happen for those baptized that have free will.
7. “God is limited by his will.”
   A. No, God’s will is that there be limits.

 

[BobCatholic]

1. "Life is not a gift, it is a responsibility, and thus a payment is required. "
   A. The gift is grace not life that is the subject of the comment.

So when people say that life is a gift from God, that is clearly not true. I agree.

1. “Unfortunately, God’s will in this area is not guaranteed to be carried out.”
   A. Dogma of faith is contrary to your statement: God through His providence, protects and guides all that He has created.

If God protected all that he creates, he’s not doing a good job because of all the evil and crime happening.

Especially when people ask God to protect them from evil and he says “no”

1. “The proportion is huge that are not saints, and if one is not a saint, elevator down.”
   A. Only God know how many saints there are and the proportion.

But we don’t. All we can do is see what is going on here.

It is not looking good for the human race.

1. “We are held temporally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve because we are in the same jail cell as they were.” and “A gift yanked is not a sign of generosity. Especially when we did not do the wrong that caused Adam and Eve’s gift to be yanked.”
   A. No, they suffered because they were given gifts which they had no right to, and lost them. But we were not given the same gifts so did not loose them.

Someone who never had freedom can never be said to have ever lost freedom.

That’s why we are sitting in the same jail cell as Adam and Eve. We never were as free as they were. That’s why we suffer the same punishment.

A. No, you have it wrong, it is a process only completed after death with the Beatific Vision. Grace does work during the entire lifetime in the process of perfecting.

If it is God’s will for that particular individual. If God does not will it, game over. God is limited by his will.

A. For the baptized, if as you say, there was no free will act due to imperfections, then there is also no damnation for such an unfree act, i.e., no “elevator down”. That can only happen for those baptized that have free will.

Despite the fact we are not culpable for the sin of Adam and Eve, we are in the same jail cell as they are. In the same way, how do we know God will have mercy on the unfree acts when he’s not doing that here in the temporal sphere?

1. “God is limited by his will.”
   A. No, God’s will is that there be limits.

Right.

Limits on him - he simply says no and doesn’t help if he doesn’t will it. This is why some people get huge amounts of sanctity and others are wondering “where’s the beef” despite trying hard.

So what is “success or failure apparently brought by God’s decision rather than through one’s own actions”? If God chooses not to help, game over. If God chooses to help, one becomes a saint. God’s will appears to have a lot in common with random chance.

 

[Vico]

So when people say that life is a gift from God, that is clearly not true. I agree.
If God protected all that he creates, he’s not doing a good job because of all the evil and crime happening.
Especially when people ask God to protect them from evil and he says “no”
But we don’t. All we can do is see what is going on here.
It is not looking good for the human race.
Someone who never had freedom can never be said to have ever lost freedom.
That’s why we are sitting in the same jail cell as Adam and Eve. We never were as free as they were. That’s why we suffer the same punishment.
If it is God’s will for that particular individual. If God does not will it, game over. God is limited by his will.
Despite the fact we are not culpable for the sin of Adam and Eve, we are in the same jail cell as they are. In the same way, how do we know God will have mercy on the unfree acts when he’s not doing that here in the temporal sphere?
Right.
Limits on him - he simply says no and doesn’t help if he doesn’t will it. This is why some people get huge amounts of sanctity and others are wondering “where’s the beef” despite trying hard.
So what is “success or failure apparently brought by God’s decision rather than through one’s own actions”? If God chooses not to help, game over. If God chooses to help, one becomes a saint. God’s will appears to have a lot in common with random chance.

1. “So when people say that life is a gift from God, that is clearly not true. I agree.”
   A. I made no statement about gift of life. The point is that the original comment is about the gift of grace.

2.“If God protected all that he creates, he’s not doing a good job because of all the evil and crime happening.”
A. God protects from loss of eternal life through grace which is needed due to free will which allows for both good and evil acts. The physical difficulties are a part of life which may be medicinal and also allow for expression of charity through those difficulties. You do not know God’s plan of providence, but we know that God does all with perfect wisdom and love

1. “Especially when people ask God to protect them from evil and he says “no””
   A. God does protect from evil (sin) by giving grace to all those that repent and ask forgiveness, and also even before conversion. That does not mean that the help is in the form expected by the asker.
2. “Someone who never had freedom can never be said to have ever lost freedom.”
   A. True, however mankind has free will just as Adam and Eve have free will. The punishment is for actual sin. Even Eden was not perfect place, after all there was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and the serpent and also Adam and Eve were not perfect either. No, not until the Beatific Vision, and for the world, with New Jerusalem.
3. “how do we know God will have mercy on the unfree acts”
   A. Because the Church teaches that this is true and is guided by the Holy Spirit to never err on matters of faith and morals.
4. “If God chooses to help, one becomes a saint.”
   A. No this is incorrect for the person may reject the grace. God does help all and when the person cooperates then that grace is called *efficatious grace *else without cooperation it is called merely sufficient grace. One has to the end of lifetime to repent and be saved, and people are not able to tell the future, so with striving one that is thought to be damned may be found in heaven after all.

 

[BobCatholic]

2.“If God protected all that he creates, he’s not doing a good job because of all the evil and crime happening.”
A. God protects from loss of eternal life through grace which is needed due to free will which allows for both good and evil acts.

So God only cares about the spiritual, and not the temporal. To God, the temporal is unimportant and dismissed.

You do not know God’s plan of providence, but we know that God does all with perfect wisdom and love

I have trouble seeing the wisdom of creating people imperfect, which causes their free will to decrease.

I see the wisdom of creating humans with free will, but free will must not be reduced to made into a cruel joke through humans being created imperfect, lest that we be set up to fail and have no choice in the matter.

In addition, free will is eliminated when it is ridiculously easy to go to hell but horrifically difficult to go to heaven. The scales are out of balance, and that is proof that free will is a cruel joke.

1. “Someone who never had freedom can never be said to have ever lost freedom.”
   A. True, however mankind has free will just as Adam and Eve have free will.

Actually, we have far less free will than they did. We are far more imperfect than Adam and Eve ever were, and thus we are at a bigger disadvantage.

Free will is a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst when people are imperfect.

1. “how do we know God will have mercy on the unfree acts”
   A. Because the Church teaches that this is true and is guided by the Holy Spirit to never err on matters of faith and morals.

And how do we know how big imperfections are before free will is impacted negatively?

1. “If God chooses to help, one becomes a saint.”
   A. No this is incorrect for the person may reject the grace. God does help all and when the person cooperates then that grace is called *efficatious grace *else without cooperation it is called merely sufficient grace. One has to the end of lifetime to repent and be saved, and people are not able to tell the future, so with striving one that is thought to be damned may be found in heaven after all.

There are those who want grace but won’t get it. There are those who want to improve themselves and have horrific difficulty doing it, and failing miserably. God’s going to throw them in hell?

God’s grace is so dependent on God’s willingness to give it, that our willingness and ability to actually receive it is an afterthought. That is the reality.