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fbl9
Guest
Interesting…
Then the opposite would be true since one has no imperfections (no inclination to sin) they could not ever choose to do wrong then.
- Status
Then the opposite would be true since one has no imperfections (no inclination to sin) they could not ever choose to do wrong then.
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Vico
Guest
Part II: Posted before on the other tread Re: imperfections rob us of free will:
From The Second Council of Orange and the Council of Trent.
God gives all the just sufficent grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)
Council of Trent (Denzinger)
828 Can. 18. If anyone shall say that the commandments of God are even for a man who is justified and confirmed in grace impossible to observe: let him be anathema [cf. n. 804].
Chap. II. The Observance of the Commandments, and the Necessity and Possibility thereof
804 But no one, however much justified, should consider himself exempt from the observance of the commandments [can. 20]; no one should make use of that rash statement forbidden under an anathema by the Fathers, that the commandments of God are impossible to observe for a man who is justified [can. 18 and 22: cf. n. 200]. “For God does not command impossibilities, but by commanding admonishes you both to do what you can do, and to pray for what you cannot do, and assists you that you may be able”; * “whose commandments are not heavy” [1 John 5:3], “whose yoke is sweet and whose burden is light” [Matt. 11:30]. For they who are the sons of God, love Christ: “but they who love him, (as He Himself testifies) keep his words” [John 14:23], which indeed with the divine help they can do. For although in this mortal life men however holy and just fall at times into at least light and daily sins, which are also called venial [can. 23], they do not for that reason cease to be just. For that word of the just, “Forgive us our trespasses” [Matt. 6:12; cf. n.107], is both humble and true. Thus it follows that the just ought to feel themselves more bound to walk in the way of justice, in that having been now “freed from sin and made servants of God” [Rom. 6:22], “living soberly and justly and piously” [Tit. 2:12], they can proceed onwards through Christ Jesus, through whom they “have access unto this grace” [Rom. 5:2]. For God “does not forsake those who have once been justified by His grace, unless He be first forsaken by them.” * And so no one should flatter himself because of faith alone [can. 9, 19, 20], thinking that by faith alone he is made an heir and will obtain the inheritance, even though he suffer not with Christ “that he may be also glorified” [Rom. 8:17]. For even Christ Himself (as the Apostle says), “whereas he was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered and being made perfect he was made to all who obey him the cause of eternal salvation” [Heb. 5:8 ff.] For this reason the Apostle himself admonishes those justified saying: “Know you not, that they who run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that you may obtain. I therefore so run, not as at an uncertainty, I so fight, not as one beating the air, but I chastise my body and bring it under subjection, lest perhaps when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway” [1 Cor. 9:24ff.]. So also the chief of the Apostles, Peter: “Labor the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election; for doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” [2 Pet. 1:10]. Thence it is clear that they are opposed to the teaching of orthodox religion who say that the just man sins at least venially in every good work [can. 25], or (what is more intolerable) that he merits eternal punishments; and that they also who declare that the just sin in all works, if in those works, in order to stimulate their own sloth and to encourage themselves to run in the race, with this (in view), that above all God may be glorified, they have in view also the eternal reward [can. 26, 31], since it is written: “I have inclined my heart to do thy justifications on account of the reward” [Ps. 118:112], and of Moses the Apostle says, that he “looked to the reward” [Heb. 11:26].
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BobCatholic
Guest
You said “…to overcome the passions” and I asked “…to overcome imperfections” or “to heal imperfections”
They are not the same thing.
So no, you didn’t answer my question
That’s my point. God’s grace does not overcome imperfections. This does not mean God is powerless to do this, he just chooses not to do it.
After all, God is limited by his will.
The problem is that
- There is no guarantee we can stay in sanctifying grace.
- There is no guarantee of final perseverance
- There is no guarantee of access to sacraments at the time of death.
- God’s grace does not overcome imperfections.
That is unlikely to happen, a heart hardened into stone does not turn into flesh.
On the other hand, one could struggle mightily against sin, try their best to cooperate with God’s grace all their lives, and do good works, only to commit a mortal sin and get hit by a bus without a chance to go to confession.
Either which way, elevator down for both of them and God’s grace wasted. And there was no choice. OK, the sin was their choice but final perseverance was not in their choice.
Then “Be fruitful and multiply” command in the Garden does not make any kind of rational sense, if God never intended that command to be followed in the garden. He should have waited until they were kicked out then give the command.
The command being given in the garden is proof God intended Adam and Eve’s children to be there with them. Instead, we are held temporally responsible for their sin.
But first, one has to survive and get there first.
Until then, we are in this jail cell without any choice in the matter. There’s no guarantee we will get out of this jail cell and be invited to the New Jerusalem. Again, there is no guarantee of final perseverance. The Catholic Church does reject OSAS, and rightly so. OSAS denies the cross.
There’s a saying “a chain is only as strong as the weakest link” - the Chain being God’s grace + our cooperation. Unfortunately, we are the weakest link. And everything hinges on that weakest link cooperating. Everything else is dependable, we are not. Everything depends on that weakest link. If it holds, all is good, if it doesn’t, game over.
We all knows what happens when the weakest link is stressed to the breaking point. The chain breaks.
There is no choice in the break.
So, no way to overcome imperfections, no way to heal them, and no way to make the weakest link as strong as the other links in the chain.
Then there’s the part about how easy it is to go to hell and how difficult it is to go to heaven. The scales are unbalanced.
Free will is at best a cruel joke or nonexistent at worst. That’s how I see free will, as a range. I don’t deny we have free will, nor do I deny that we don’t. Somewhere between 0% and 100% is where our free will lies. And I don’t know what percent is enough to say “OK, that’s insufficient free will and one is not culpable.” Because of that, I don’t know - is it just as easy to go to heaven as hell because God sees the huge imperfections and just gives us extra mercy or does God just say "you have free will even if 1% so elevator down…
Who’s right? St. Leonard? Or the universalists? Are few saved as Jesus says? Or is there a huge sea of saved as the book of Revelation say? I don’t know. Both give me a bad case of cognitive dissonance.
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BobCatholic
Guest
Precisely.
A perfect person does not want to sin. They are capable of sinning but choose not to. Their free will is 100%. And they 100% choose God. There is no ignorance, no weakness, just fully informed consent and choosing God.
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Vico
Guest
Yes I did answer the question you asked see forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14653328&postcount=715You said “…to overcome the passions” and I asked “…to overcome imperfections” or “to heal imperfections”
They are not the same thing.
So no, you didn’t answer my question
…
The problem is that
- There is no guarantee we can stay in sanctifying grace.
- There is no guarantee of final perseverance
- There is no guarantee of access to sacraments at the time of death.
- God’s grace does not overcome imperfections. …
We already previously discussed imperfections and that they remain. You ignore the post I made about passive vs active. There is a guarantee, as you can read in Part II, for those in sanctifying grace that freely cooperate with it. The faithful must not freely reject the help of the sanctifying grace by choosing to sin mortally.
The key to salvation is reception of sanctifying grace. If one has neither sufficient reason nor free will, but has sanctifying grace, then that one attains heaven. However being without reason or free will is not the norm. We know that Adam and Eve committed mortal sin through free will.
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BobCatholic
Guest
There’s the difference between passions and imperfections. You said that grace helps us overcome the passions, but not imperfections.
Yes, God wrote buggy software and refuses to fix the bugs. Then when it crashes (it is only a matter of time) God says “it is your fault, not mine.”
Grace should be the one actively fixing the bugs, after all, God put them there in the first place.
As imperfect beings (buggy software) we are in no position or ability to fix them ourselves.
Since, as you say, grace does not fix the bugs, the bugs never get fixed and the software (us) keep crashing.
There is no choice until the bugs are fixed.
But that guarantee is not to get the imperfections fixed, so as a result, the software crash is inevitable.
In addition there is no guarantee that sacraments will be available at the time of death. There is no guarantee of final perseverance.
However, if we are created imperfect, we will crash, it is only a matter of time. Where’s the choice? This is why grace SHOULD BE fixing imperfections, but God chooses not to.
Reception without keeping will get one into hell.
The key to salvation is KEEPING sanctifying grace after reception.
Yes, they have to KEEP it somehow.
**A bucket that has holes (imperfections) will leak water (grace) until it is empty. Then elevator down. **
It is VERY LIKELY that someone could struggle all their lives to follow God’s commandments, get the sacraments and the grace from them, and then lose grace at the last moments of life.
Clearly you haven’t seen modern society and what they’re doing. Without reason IS the norm here. Especially when it comes to certain political ideologies.
I question how much free will they had, after all they were created imperfect and there was zero choice in obtaining forgiveness.
Remember, a leaky bucket leaks water. God’s grace does not fix the leaks.
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Vico
Guest
No, one baptized receives sanctifying grace with which it is possible to remain without mortal sin for life. The Council of Trent dogma of faith, that I posted before shows that.
… no one should make use of that rash statement forbidden under an anathema by the Fathers, that the commandments of God are impossible to observe for a man who is justified [can. 18 and 22: cf. n. 200].
– Denzinger 804
A person in the state of sanctifying grace can only end in hell through an act of free will which is also a mortal sin. Mortal sin has three conditions.
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fbl9
Guest
The normal imperfections of being a human remove free will the the opposite must be true in that being perfect also removes free will.
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BobCatholic
Guest
No, the opposite of imperfect is perfect.
The opposite of having no or insufficient information to make a decision, is being fully informed.
Thus the opposite of reducing free will or eliminated free will is that one has free will in the fullest.
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BobCatholic
Guest
So what you are saying is that the Church is teaching “once graced, always graced”?
I don’t think so. That seems to mirror OSAS, a condemned doctrine.
You interpret Denzinger’s statement that one can remain out of mortal sin. OK, I’ll go along with that interpretation. But there’s a problem. One cannot remain without venial sin or imperfections. In addition, venial sins and imperfections CAN pile up to the point that one becomes out of grace.
That’s my point.
A bucket with holes in it (imperfections) does leak (grace) and eventually becomes empty (elevator down).
In addition, God’s grace is very weak, and ineffectual if the imperfections are big enough in a person. So that statement does not apply to someone who cannot obtain the grace in the first place (i.e. the water of grace does not get the person wet with sanctity because it is like water off a duck’s back).
The self is evil. So many people are stuck in the self mode. That imperfection is so bad that God’s grace cannot get into such a person. But yet God created them that way.
For example, I read an article about children who are psychopaths. That imperfection is so huge, they cannot have grace because they WANT to do evil.
independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/is-your-child-a-psychopath-study-reveals-the-warning-signs-and-how-early-you-can-spot-them-10497750.html
This is why I wonder why grace does not fix imperfections. Why does God make it so difficult to go to heaven? God plays very hard to get. How is God the Hound of Heaven (searching for us) when I can’t even get a relationship with him?
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Vico
Guest
No it is not once saved always saved teaching. The person with sanctifying grace can loose it through mortal sin (mortal sin is an act of free will, not involuntary). I posted the entire quote for you before but apparently you did not read it.
That quote from Denzinger, Sources of Catholic Dogma, is a dogma of faith the Catholic Church from the Council of Trent, SESSION VI (Jan. 13, 1547) Decree On Justification, Chap. II. The Observance of the Commandments, and the Necessity and Possibility thereof:
804 But no one, however much justified, should consider himself exempt from the observance of the commandments [can. 20]; no one should make use of that rash statement forbidden under an anathema by the Fathers, that the commandments of God are impossible to observe for a man who is justified [can. 18 and 22: cf. n. 200]. “For God does not command impossibilities, but by commanding admonishes you both to do what you can do, and to pray for what you cannot do, and assists you that you may be able”; * “whose commandments are not heavy” [1 John 5:3], “whose yoke is sweet and whose burden is light” [Matt. 11:30]. For they who are the sons of God, love Christ: “but they who love him, (as He Himself testifies) keep his words” [John 14:23], which indeed with the divine help they can do. For although in this mortal life men however holy and just fall at times into at least light and daily sins, which are also called venial [can. 23], they do not for that reason cease to be just. For that word of the just, “Forgive us our trespasses” [Matt. 6:12; cf. n.107], is both humble and true. Thus it follows that the just ought to feel themselves more bound to walk in the way of justice, in that having been now “freed from sin and made servants of God” [Rom. 6:22], “living soberly and justly and piously” [Tit. 2:12], they can proceed onwards through Christ Jesus, through whom they “have access unto this grace” [Rom. 5:2]. For God “does not forsake those who have once been justified by His grace, unless He be first forsaken by them.” * And so no one should flatter himself because of faith alone [can. 9, 19, 20], thinking that by faith alone he is made an heir and will obtain the inheritance, even though he suffer not with Christ “that he may be also glorified” [Rom. 8:17]. For even Christ Himself (as the Apostle says), “whereas he was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered and being made perfect he was made to all who obey him the cause of eternal salvation” [Heb. 5:8 ff.] For this reason the Apostle himself admonishes those justified saying: “Know you not, that they who run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that you may obtain. I therefore so run, not as at an uncertainty, I so fight, not as one beating the air, but I chastise my body and bring it under subjection, lest perhaps when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway” [1 Cor. 9:24ff.]. So also the chief of the Apostles, Peter: “Labor the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election; for doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” [2 Pet. 1:10]. Thence it is clear that they are opposed to the teaching of orthodox religion who say that the just man sins at least venially in every good work [can. 25], or (what is more intolerable) that he merits eternal punishments; and that they also who declare that the just sin in all works, if in those works, in order to stimulate their own sloth and to encourage themselves to run in the race, with this (in view), that above all God may be glorified, they have in view also the eternal reward [can. 26, 31], since it is written: “I have inclined my heart to do thy justifications on account of the reward” [Ps. 118:112], and of Moses the Apostle says, that he “looked to the reward” [Heb. 11:26].
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fbl9
Guest
being imperfect removes free will thus being perfect also removes free will.
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BobCatholic
Guest
This assumes one can stay justified.
A leaky bucket eventually becomes empty of grace due to imperfections.
One can observe the commandments and still go to hell. Just look at the rich young ruler. He observed the commandments and Jesus rejected him.
Then why does God command us to be perfect and not make us perfect? Instead, we remain imperfect during this sojourn in our jail cell.
And the best one can hope for is purgatory, not heaven.
In addition, this is where I am stuck, and there is no way to get better unless God helps me.
Then why do saints endure such horrific suffering? If they’re not heavy, they would not have to endure such horrific suffering.
But if they die in a state of venial sin, they go to purgatory.
Then where is he?
Precisely, this contradicts the previous part, where the yoke is easy.
A saying that talks about how few will be saved. The rest of the people running the race don’t get the prize. One will. One goes to purgatory/heaven the rest go to hell.
So, how do I get God to love me if I don’t have a choice in the matter?
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Vico
Guest
Sanctifying grace is only lost voluntarily, it is not forced through imperfections. Everyone is imperfect, even those in a state of sanctifying grace and we all pray “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.” Until our glorious resurrections, we do not have original justice which requires the preternatural gifts in addition to sanctifying grace.
It is not true that the best one can hope for is purgatory, not heaven, first because heaven is attained by all the experience the purification of purgatory, and secondly because some attain heaven without purgatory.
Jesus told us that there will be persecutions, but also the the yolk is light. The lightness is not referring to the sufferings but that one will have grace needed for salvation. As Jesus said, the world hated him, it will hate his disciples.
God loves all, and has given us sanctifying grace. We all participate in the divine life through sanctifying grace.
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BobCatholic
Guest
Then why was there people who did the Lord’s will and the Lord said “I do not know you”?
What about people who fool themselves into thinking they have sanctifying grace only to find out the hard way elevator down at their judgment?
Five foolish virgins were locked out. No choice there.
Fig tree condemned for not doing something it had no choice to to.
The only way to heaven is to be perfect.
Everyone imperfect goes to purgatory. Yes we are going to heaven after purgatory, but there is no choice to go to heaven directly.
I read the lives of the saints, they endured horrific suffering. That’s NOT light!
God has not given all sanctifying grace. God does love some more than others, as evidenced by how people get good things that I can’t get. Example, going to healing services and seeing others get healed but not my son. No choice there.
Imperfections cause people to lose their sanctifying grace, that’s how it works. Voluntary or not. Imperfect people are buckets who leak.
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Vico
Guest
The key concept is that mortal sin occurs only voluntarily (deliberate consent). Catechism
1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”
It is possible that a person does not have a state of sanctifying grace yet imagines that they do, however for one that had sanctifying grace this loss only occurs voluntarily. Then there are some that never have sanctifying grace, because they are never baptized. This includes examples from all parables.
Some saints actually do skip purgatory and are immediately in heaven at death.
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BobCatholic
Guest
I know about mortal sin.
But from what I’m seeing here, one CAN go to hell without mortal sin.
The rich young ruler. What mortal sin did he have? Oh yeah, he was rich. But he followed all the commandments from his youth! Jesus didn’t want him. No choice there, Jesus thinks being rich is a mortal sin.
The fig tree. What mortal sin? Didn’t give fruit at the wrong season. How is that a mortal sin? No choice there.
The virgins. What mortal sin? Ran out of oil while patiently waiting for the bridegroom. God’s grace can run out through leaks! How is this a mortal sin?
Those who did the Lord’s will but the Lord said “I do not know you.” They did signs in his name, and clearly God doesn’t let that happen unless they were with Jesus. What mortal sin was there?
Free choice is not always a requirement for mortal sin, looks like it is optional.
What about those who fooled themselves that they GOT into grace but never actually did? Oops for them.
Because they were perfected here on earth. Those not perfect go to purgatory. No choice.
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Vico
Guest
Those that are baptized receive sanctifying grace, and also through confession, after that. Mortal sin*** only*** occurs through a free will act, it is not optional. One can end in hell that dies in original sin which is not mortal sin, but is a state without sanctifying grace.
You ignored what I posted “Then there are some that never have sanctifying grace, because they are never baptized. This includes examples from all parables.”
Catechism
633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483
Those that die in the state of sanctifying grace attain heaven, regardless of purgatory.
The Catechism also explains about baptism of desire and of blood and other cases:
VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
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BobCatholic
Guest
Mortal sin is optional. That’s why those virgins “leaked” grace - their lamps (filled with grace) ran out.
Imperfections cause people to leak grace until finally empty and then game over, elevator down. There is no choice.
The rich young ruler committed the mortal sin of having wealth. The fig tree committed the mortal sin of not doing something at the wrong time for it to be done.
Of course, I don’t believe either of those is a mortal sin, but clearly that’s the case here.
There are those who were never baptized (water, blood) but somehow make it into heaven. Perhaps the baptism of desire is obtained at death? They’re lucky.
Yes, but first the imperfect ones must go through purgatory. NO CHOICE.
So that’s two instances where free will = 0.
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Vico
Guest
- Mortal sin is a free will choice per the dogma of the Church, and free will means exactly what you said, optional. It is not forced on a person but an option.
- A person does not have to be without imperfections in order to remain free from mortal sin.
- A person may be free from all temporal punishments at death even though full of imperfections, for example, those that die with a plenary indulgence, or with the apostolic blessing at the sacrament of annotating of the sick, and those that have baptism of blood.
- Status