Is our free will absolute?

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No I’m not a moderator. And sorry I don’t usually go around doing this to people. I just happen to read the forum rules for the first time recently and I didn’t quite expect that rule. But I guess it makes sense. And then I just happen to notice your posts. That’s all.
 
Latin said:
Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “The Gift of Final Perseverance.”

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The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance.

[43] Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere.

[44] Aquinas said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.
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Why do you quote these from the Akin article, but not [45] and [46]?
[45] But not all who come to God receive this grace.

Aquinas said the gift of final perseverance is “the abiding in good to the end of life. In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions…[A]fter anyone has been justified by grace, he still needs to beseech God for the aforesaid gift of perseverance, that he may be kept from evil till the end of life. For to many grace is given to whom perseverance in grace is not give.” [46]
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Thanks for quoting this. King Solomon did not beseech God for this gift of final perseverance that’s why he died in a state of sin.
 
I might add that God also has an agenda,
His SOVEREIGN will!! What does this en-
tail? He wants the most people saved the
most victorious number of Christians made
throughout the world at any given moment,
the BEST course of action WE can take is
to discover His will(Rom. 12:2) and SUBMIT
to it, b/c it is Love and Mercy itself(Fatima
Prayer)
 
AveOTheotokos said:
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Latin:
Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “The Gift of Final Perseverance.”

.

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance.

[43] Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere.

[44] Aquinas said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.
Click to expand...
Why do you quote these from the Akin article, but not [45] and [46]?
[45] But not all who come to God receive this grace.

Aquinas said the gift of final perseverance is “the abiding in good to the end of life. In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions…[A]fter anyone has been justified by grace, he still needs to beseech God for the aforesaid gift of perseverance, that he may be kept from evil till the end of life. For to many grace is given to whom perseverance in grace is not give.” [46]
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God bless you AveOTheotokos and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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Your question:
Why do you quote these from the Akin article, but not [45] and [46]?
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My short answer:
With my posts I cut through the unimportant stuff which only would cause confusions, and go straight to the theological facts.
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I’m sure, anyone read my above answer, wouldn’t and couldn’t believe a word of it unless I prove it.
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Continue
 
Continuation
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NOW I HAVE TO GIVE YOU AVEOTHEOTOKOS AND THE READERS A LONGER ANSWER TO PROVE IT
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To understand our salvation, we have to clearly understand the following Theological facts:
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FIRST THEOLOGICAL FACT:

OUR SALVATION IS GOD’S CHOICE NOT OURS

CCCS (1996-1998) God’s call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
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John 6:65; … no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father.
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John 6:44; No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.
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Acts 13:48; … As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
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SECOND THEOLOGICAL FACT:

THERE IS NO SALVATION WITHOUT God’s aide His UNDESERVED grace The Gift of Final Perseverance.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence.
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Quote: Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
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It is grace of Christ that delivers us (Rom.7:25); and makes us co-heirs with Him (Rom.8:17).
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This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).
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It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).
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It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxviii in Matt.”, n. 3 in “P.G.”, LVII, 354). End quote.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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SUMMARY

a. God’s call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
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b. Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
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Continue
 
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Continuation
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THE “REASONS” PEOPLE HAVE TO GO TO HELL ???
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A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP James Akin
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Quote: Thomas Aquinas wrote, "God wills to manifest his goodness in men: in respect to those whom he predestines, by means of his mercy, in sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of his justice, in punishing them.

This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others. End quote.
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Quote from Augustune: Yet why he chooses some for glory and reprobates others has no reason except the divine will.
Hence Augustine says, ‘Why he draws one, and another he draws not, seek not to judge, if thou dost not wish to err.’" ST I:23:5. End quote.
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Now James Akin speaking: (A tiptoe through TULIP)
Quote: One may say that although the sufficiency of the atonement is not limited, its efficiency is limited.

This is something everyone who believes in hell must acknowledge because, if the atonement was made efficacious for everyone, then no one would end up in hell. – Something to think about. End quote.
.

This is above the best and clearest explanation I ever read on the reason the majority of the human race going to the pains of hell for all eternity; because God “failed” to make Christ’s sacrifice efficacious for everyone.

If God would made the atonement efficacious for everyone, then no one would have to go to hell.
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Johns Salza Catholic Apologist in the Mystery of Predestination teaching about the same concept.
The section on efficacious Grace endevers to show that for those whom he chosen, he sends efficacious Grace that infallibly makes man freely choose God.

The chapter on sufficient Grace speaks of God sending sufficient grace to all people that is sufficient to Grant them salvation.
But at the same time, Salza explains it really is not sufficient, and nobody can be saved this way.
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I don’t know how anyone cannot see the incredible contradictions and the impossibility of the above teachings.

Yet I didn’t see it either until I started an intensive study of the above teachings for the reason to DEFEND it, and while I studied it I realized, I trying to defend a theological impossibility.
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Continue
 
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Continuation
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AN ANALOGUE FOR EASY UNDERSTANDING

Think about AveOTheotokos, you have a two years old child, you know you need to care for her and to give her food and water.
You know if you choose not to provide one of the two, food or water to your daughter, your daughter soon will die, you murder her.
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Analogue of our food:
In the same way, we are God’s children, totally dependent on God to Save us by:

Explaining Justification
The grace of God’s Justification CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.

Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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The Grace of God’s Call (1996-1998)
Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will. End quote.
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Analogue of our water:
And to provide us His grace The Gift of Final Perseverance.
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We have enough knowledge to know, if we don’t give food or water to a two years old child, that child soon will die.
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Can we imagine, God doesn’t have enough knowledge to know, without He calls us to eternal life, and to give us His grace The Gift of Final Perseverance we are end up in hell???

If God saves us and refuse to give us His gift of grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, then God purposely murdered us, even worse, torments us in all eternity in the pains of hell.
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I’m a Catholic, I believe the God of the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence.
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This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).
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It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).
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It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxviii in Matt.”, n. 3 in “P.G.”, LVII, 354). End quote.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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I’m sorry for the long posts, I made them as short as I could.
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God bless you AveOTheotokos and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin
 
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Latin said:
God bless you AveOTheotokos and God bless every readers of the CAF.

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Your question:

Why do you quote these from the Akin article, but not [45] and [46]?

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My short answer:

With my posts I cut through the unimportant stuff which only would cause confusions, and go straight to the theological facts.

.

I’m sure, anyone read my above answer, wouldn’t and couldn’t believe a word of it unless I prove it.

.

Continue
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I think you are cutting through important stuff and it is causing you confusion. Again, you reply and do a lot of cherry-picking. The very article you cite (tiptoe through TULIP) and the full quotes that are cited at the end counter your position:
A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP
James Akin
“…The idea that a person can be predestined to come to God yet not be predestined to stay the course may be new to Calvinists and may sound strange to them, but it did not sound strange to Augustine, Aquinas, or even Luther. Calvinists frequently cite these men as “Calvinists before Calvin.” While they did hold high views of predestination, they did not draw Calvin’s inference that all who are ever saved are predestined to remain in grace. [47] Instead, their faith was informed by the biblical teaching that some who enter the sphere of grace go on to leave it.”
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Latin said:
AN ANALOGUE FOR EASY UNDERSTANDING

Think about AveOTheotokos, you have a two years old child, you know you need to care for her and to give her food and water.

You know if you choose not to provide one of the two, food or water to your daughter, your daughter soon will die, you murder her.
Click to expand...
I do have a two year old. I agree with you here. I also have other children who are younger and older. As children grow, they become independent and make their own choices.

Because they are my children and I will love them forever, I will always be there for them and I will always come to their aid in times of need… but if they reject that love, and refuse to ask for and reject my help, I will not force my will for their lives upon them.

I love them, and I respect their free will. If they chose to reject me and ignore me, then that is their choice.
 
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God bless you AveOTheotokos and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post.
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The idea that a person can be predestined to come to God yet not be predestined to stay, I know very well, it is called predestination to Initial salvation or predestination to grace.

The essence of the predestination as you stated; predestined to come to God yet not be predestined to stay, so their condemnation to hell is certain from all eternity.
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Predestination to initial salvation/grace of course is God’s choice and He is the One who predestines, and as God’s choice it is a positive predestination, and the destination of the predestination is hell.

To understand predestination to initial salvation/grace first we must understand the other predestination of God, the predestination of God’s elect to heaven.
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Continue
 
Continuation
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The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a DE FIDE Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.
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Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.
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(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.

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THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita

THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.
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The Grace of God’s Call (1996-1998) This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will. End quote.
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WE MUST UNDERSTAND PREDESTINATION OF GOD’S ELECT TO HEAVEN BEFORE WE COMPREHEND PREDESTINATION TO INITIAL SALVATION/GRACE
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At their Initial Justification every God’s elect of God IRREVOCABLY SAVED, their salvation is Protected by God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, without this protection every elect would end up in hell. – DE FIDE Dogma. + Infallible teachings of the Trent.
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THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.

Quote: For the absolute predestination of the blessed is at the same time the absolute will of God not to elect" a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, “to exclude them from heaven” (Gonet), in other words, not to save them.
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Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to take care that they die in their sins. End quote.

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Continue
 
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Continuation

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THE WAY GOD FRUSTRATES THE ETERNAL WELFARE OF ALL EXCLUDED FROM HEAVEN AND TO TAKE CARE THAT THEY DIE IN THEIR SINS
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God gives only efficacious Grace and His grace The Gift of Final Perseverance to His elect, predestined to heaven.
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God takes care that the rest of the human race to die in their sins and end up in hell as follows:
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A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP James Akin

[45] But not all who come to God receive this grace.

[46] For to many grace is given to whom perseverance in grace is not give.”
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Quote: Thomas Aquinas wrote, "God wills to manifest his goodness in men: in respect to those whom he predestines, by means of his mercy, in sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of his justice, in punishing them.
This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others. End quote.
.

Quote from Augustune: Yet why he chooses some for glory and reprobates others has no reason except the divine will. ST I:23:5. End quote.
.

Now James Akin speaking: (A tiptoe through TULIP)
Quote: One may say that although the sufficiency of the atonement is not limited, its efficiency is limited.

This is something everyone who believes in hell must acknowledge because, if the atonement was made efficacious for everyone, then no one would end up in hell. – Something to think about. End quote.
.

KEY TO UNDERSTAND
If God would made the atonement efficacious for everyone, then no one would have to go to hell.
.

Johns Salza Catholic Apologist in the Mystery of Predestination teaching about the same concept.
The section on efficacious Grace endevers to show that for those whom he chosen, he sends efficacious Grace that infallibly makes man freely choose God.

The chapter on sufficient Grace speaks of God sending sufficient grace to all people that is sufficient to Grant them salvation.
But at the same time, Salza explains it really is not sufficient, and nobody can be saved this way.
.
.
Some Christians mistakenly believe, people end up in hell because they leave God, yet as we see above the opposite is true, they end up in hell because apart from the predestined to heaven, God reprobated everyone and take care that they all die in their sins.
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Continue
 
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Continuation

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CONTINUATION OF THE CATHOLIC DOGMA Predestination of the elect.

Quote: Considering that not all men reach their supernatural end in heaven, but that many are eternally lost, there MUST EXIST a twofold predestination:

(a) one to heaven.

(b) one to the pains of hell.

However, according to present usages to which we shall adhere in the course of the article, it is better to call the latter decree the Divine “reprobation,” so that the term predestination is reserved for the Divine decree of the happiness of the elect.
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The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the good is the decree the Divine "reprobation."
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The conceptual difference between the two kinds of reprobation lies in this:

The Catholic reprobation is NEGATIVE REPROBATION.
Merely implies the absolute will not to grant the bliss of heaven, though not positively predestined to hell, yet they are absolutely predestined not to go to heaven (cf. above, I, B).
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The Calvinistic reprobation is POSITIVE REPROBATION.
Calvinistic reprobation means the absolute will to condemn to hell. End quote.
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THE VIEW OF THE CATHOLIC THEOLOGIANS THAT APART FROM THE PREDESTINED TO HEAVEN GOD TAKES CARE THAT THEY ALL DIE IN THEIR SINS.

CONTINUATION OF THE CATHOLIC DOGMA Predestination of the elect.

Quote: Whatever view one may take regarding the reprobation, it cannot be harmonized with the dogmatically certain universality and sincerity of God’s salvific will.
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For the absolute predestination of the blessed is at the same time the absolute will of God “not to elect” a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, “to exclude them from heaven” (Gonet), in other words, not to save them.
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How can that will to save be called serious and sincere which has decreed from all eternity the metaphysical impossibility of salvation?
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He who has been reprobated negatively, may exhaust all his efforts to attain salvation: it avail’s him nothing.
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Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to take care that they die in their sins.
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Is this the language in which Holy Writ speaks to us?
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No; there we meet an anxious, loving father, who wills not “that any should perish, but that all should return to penance” (2 Peter 3:9).
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Lessius rightly says that it would be indifferent to him whether he was numbered among those reprobated positively or negatively; for, in either case, his eternal damnation would be certain.
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The reason for this is that in the present economy exclusion from heaven means for adults practically the same thing as damnation.
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A middle state, a merely natural happiness, does not exist. End quote.

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Continue
 
Continuation
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KEY TO UNDERSTAND CATHOLIC SOTERIOLOGY
.

THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita

THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.
.

The Grace of God’s Call (1996-1998) This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will. End quote.
.

For the absolute predestination of the blessed is at the same time the absolute will of God “not to elect” a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, “to exclude them from heaven” (Gonet), in other words, not to save them.
.
He who has been reprobated negatively, may exhaust all his efforts to attain salvation: it avail’s him nothing.
.
Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to take care that they die in their sins.
.
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As you see AveOTheotokos predestination to Initial salvation/grace has zero theological significance because the destination of the predestination is hell, in fact every one of them predestined/negatively reprobated to hell from all eternity.
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I’m sorry for the long post, in the future I will post shorter ones.
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God bless you AveOTheotokos and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin
 
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Latin said:
As you see AveOTheotokos predestination to Initial salvation/grace has zero theological significance because the destination of the predestination is hell, in fact every one of them predestined/negatively reprobated to hell from all eternity.
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From “A Tiptoe Through TULIP”:
Although a Catholic may agree with unconditional election, he may not affirm “double-predestination,” a doctrine Calvinists often infer from it. This teaching claims that in addition to electing some people to salvation God also sends others to damnation.

The alternative to double-predestination is to say that while God predestines some people, he simply passes over the remainder. They will not come to God, but it is because of their inherent sin, not because God damns them. This is the doctrine of passive reprobation, which Aquinas taught [16].
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Free will. God gives us the freedom to not come to him because of our sins.
 
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What Does the Church Say About Predestination?

In the history of Christianity, few terms have stirred as much controversy and confusion as this one. Predestination is a bit of a thorny thicket for theologians, perhaps territory some think best avoided for greener pastures. But it is nonetheless worth venturing into that thicket for the...
catholicexchange.com catholicexchange.com
 
If I could make a gentle suggestion…(maybe it’s just me)
excessive formatting makes your posts hard to follow. They make me anxious, as if you are shouting at us.
 
Not just you. The formatting makes it very hard to follow and causes my eyes to jump around because of the the frequency of formatting. It takes me a while to get through his posts because of this.
 
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Latin said:
Continuation
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KEY TO UNDERSTAND CATHOLIC SOTERIOLOGY
.

THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita

THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.
.

The Grace of God’s Call (1996-1998) This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will. End quote.
.

For the absolute predestination of the blessed is at the same time the absolute will of God “not to elect” a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, “to exclude them from heaven” (Gonet), in other words, not to save them.

Latin
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couple of points
“Free will” shouldn’t be confused with some sort of “will to power”, as if my free will gives me the power to accomplish whatever my will conceives. I cannot make a diamond appear on my desk, much as I’d like it.
So, in that sense, I cannot make my self “leap into heaven”.

Neither should “free will” be confused with “license to do whatever I want”. Those are not the same thing.

Free will is the freedom God gives every person to choose Him.
We have the motiv-ation to choose and act in union with God. The results of our actions may vary according to human conditions, but the movement of the will is the important thing.

Our eternal destiny in God’s eye does not violate free will. It cannot. If God violated our freedom to choose Him, then God’s self identification “God is love” is false, and God cannot be a liar.

If God is love, then he allows all his human creatures the freedom to reciprocate.

Here’s the key point you are missing:
God is not subject to time.
God is not subject to time.
In considering our salvation, we as human beings want to know
  1. what God knows and
  2. when he knows it,
    and that is a nonsensical proposition because God is not subject to time as we are. When we realize God knows something independently of our birth, we think we have a gotcha moment with God and that we should have this knowledge along with him. But, we are not God. And so God’s knowledge of our destiny is literally none of our business. We should simply employ the freedom God has given us to choose him at every possible moment because we live in time.
Taking this into consideration God’s knowledge of our destiny does not have to negate free will. No one is born condemned.
That idea is radically counter to Christianity, and is one of the most dangerous ideas ever conceived.
 
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