Is Our Lady of Fatima Still Relevant?

[Dempsey1919]

I am a new believer in Our Lady of Fatima. I remember watching a film about Fatima when I was a child at school; but I forgot about the apparition shortly afterwards and never really thought about it again. Recently, thanks to CAF, I rediscovered Our Lady of Fatima and I have become a believer. I’ve ready many websites, including The Fatima Network of Father Nicholas Gruner. I am aware that Fr. Gruner is not a priest in good standing with the Catholic Church, but I find his interpretation of the Fatima message interesting. He believes the Fatima message remains relevant to our times, but others seem to think that the time of Fatima passed with the end of the Cold War and the fall of Soviet Russia. Father Gruner does not believe the Consecration of Russia has been performed, but the Church maintains that this was done by Pope John Paul II in 1984.

My question: Is Fatima still relevant to our time? Or has the time of Fatima passed?

I have also noticed that traditional Catholics seem to be the main proponents of Our Lady of Fatima; they seem to be the ones who really believe in the importance of this message. Why is this?

Please Note: I am aware that there are many conspiracy theories surrounding Fatima. I have no problems discussing these, but please do not see this as an opportunity to slander Vatican II or the Ordinary Form of the Mass. I mention this because I have come across traditionalists who insist Fatima is opposed to Vatican II, and this leads them to be uncharitable in their words. I am really interested in this topic and I would love to have a friendly, polite discussion about all of the elements of the Fatima apparitions. Thanks.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

My question: Is Fatima still relevant to our time? Or has the time of Fatima passed?

My Opinion
The Fourth Secret of Fatima is written by an Italian jouranlist, Antonio Socci, who is very respectful of the Holy See and of the popes. He began by believing that the consecration to Russia had been performed as explained by Vatican officials. Using his investigative tools, he came round to that position espoused by “the Fatimists”, that the consecration is yet future, and that the third secret is not completely revealed.

He also proposes quite reasonably and persuasively, that consecrations which failed to completely fulfill our Lady’s guidelines by popes not in conjunction with the world’s bishops or foir the consecration of the world (as opposed to Russia distinctly) were nevertheless heard in heaven and resulted in favors that have mitigated what might have been more serious chastisements.

After your thread on Vatican II was already several pages, I commented by linking its results with the message of Our Lady of Fatima. The two are inseparably intertwined. There are two different ways of converting Russia. In my opinion, the “Fatimist way”, which takes much faith and exposure to the possibility of ridicule not unlike when Elijah called fire from heaven to consume the sacrifice, is that which heaven will honour.

I am glad the Berlin Wall (as Socci, explains, because of Pope John Paul’s consecration) came down, but under no conceivable view can I find in that result, the conversion of Russia spoken about to the children at Fatima. the most poignant argument against the Vatican proposition that the consecration is still future is found in determining if you believe that Russia is converted and Our Lady has granted to us that era of world peace promised to accompany it.

Those Catholics who think that the full consecration has been made are stuck with two very uncomfortable possibilities.

1. they must propose that Russia is converted, Russia’s errors are exposed and renounced, our Lady’s Immaculate Heart has triumphed, and we are living in a blessed time of world peace…

OR…

1. they must propose that though the consecrations occurred, the promises are delayed, or not coming at all. After all Fatima IS only a private revelation.

I find that neither of these answers correspond with my understanding of how important the message of Our Lady of Fatima has been for our times. Partial consecrations and the presence and reverence to the statue of Our Lady of Fatima in various pilgrim locations have always resulted in immediate positive fruit. Fulfilled Fatima prophecies have never been delayed for a generation before being answered but have been rapid and timely.

I, like Antonio Socci, want the truth. I just can’t believe the Vatican officials who claim that Fatima is over, are being forthcoming. Why was silence imposed on Sr. Lucia after 1960? Why does the Vatican not just publish the Secret if it is so innocuous and already fulfilled? The answers appear to be that the Secret is similar to previously approved appearances of Our Lady, such as at La Sallete, where it is predicted that there will be a significant falling away of faith in the Catholic Church, reaching unto the highest places in the Church.

Anyway, I can’t explain all in a post. Get the book. Nothing adds up if you say the consecration is in the past. It doesn’t make sense that at one time, Church leaders reject publication of the Secret because it would be too controversial and disconcerting to the faithful, while the next generation in the year 2,000 try to explain the contents (not publish) with almost a yawn. There is nothing in the explanation that would upset anybody. It doesn’t make sense. Socci knew it, changed his mind, and wrote about why he changed his mind.

The er

 

[PrudenceD]

I took Fatima as my Confirmation name, moreso at the time as to appease my mother in her request, but upon being confirmed I felt that I should have a more vested interest in the miracle associated with the Blessed Mother and the country of Portugal. I will admit freely that it has been some time now since I’ve spent time studying, but the core message resonates daily-pray to the Blessed Mother and devote yourself to her with a pure heart.

While I am not a perfect person by any stretch of the imagination, I do make it a point to reflect honestly with Mary on a very regular basis. As I leave and enter my home, I am drawn to her image as she stand vigilante over my house, surrounded by the creeping vines that never grow past her feet.

Does the message of Fatima still hold today? That is quite the question indeed. I think that the answer lies within each of us-do you believe that it is relevant? I don’t know that I completely believe ‘mother Russia’ holds the key to the salvation and/or damnation of the world-but that’s just me. What I take from the message of Fatima is that Mary knows true salvation comes from true humility and complete surrender to the teachings of Jesus. And the best (and some say, only) way to Christ-and the Father-is through the intercession of the Blessed Mother.

So I pray to Mary. Whether it be her forms in Fatima, Lourdes or at the foot of the cross holding her dead son, I offer up my imperfect prayers to Mary. And I pray that my heart is pure enough that she will grant me the salvation she spoke of at Fatima-through devotion to her immaculate heart.

 

[Dempsey1919]

After your thread on Vatican II was already several pages, I commented by linking its results with the message of Our Lady of Fatima. The two are inseparably intertwined.

How are Our Lady of Fatima and Vatican II linked? I know the Mother of God is interested in the workings of the Church Militant; she would have been present at Vatican II praying for her the Church; but can we say that she told us about the coming of Vatican II in 1917 when she visited Portugal?

I am glad the Berlin Wall (as Socci, explains, because of Pope John Paul’s consecration) came down, but under no conceivable view can I find in that result, the conversion of Russia spoken about to the children at Fatima. the most poignant argument against the Vatican proposition that the consecration is still future is found in determining if you believe that Russia is converted and Our Lady has granted to us that era of world peace promised to accompany it.

It is interesting that you link Our Lady of Fatima with the fall of the Berlin Wall; I would go further and suggest that the Blessed Virgin played a huge role in the collapse of the Soviet system throughout the world. The Fatima message seems to be fulfilled. But what about the conversion of Russia? Russia has not been converted to the Catholic faith. Look at what the Blessed Mother did in Mexico when she appeared to St. Juan Diego; she converted an entire nation! Why hasn’t she converted Russia? The Blessed Mother does not do things half-way; if she converted Russia, I believe it would be similar to the events in Mexico: a widespread, mass conversion of thousands!

I always thought that the messages of Fatima were concerned with Soviet Russia and the Cold War, both of which are past events; this is why I thought Fatima was no longer relevant to the modern world. The times described by Fatima seem to have passed. Why are the SSPX and others so preoccupied by this apparition? They seem to think that another Consecration will be the answer to all of our prayers. I really hope this is the truth, but I am not sure that Fatima is the solution the traditionalists make it out to be.

 

[Art321]

How are Our Lady of Fatima and Vatican II linked? I know the Mother of God is interested in the workings of the Church Militant; she would have been present at Vatican II praying for her the Church; but can we say that she told us about the coming of Vatican II in 1917 when she visited Portugal?

It is interesting that you link Our Lady of Fatima with the fall of the Berlin Wall; I would go further and suggest that the Blessed Virgin played a huge role in the collapse of the Soviet system throughout the world. The Fatima message seems to be fulfilled. But what about the conversion of Russia? Russia has not been converted to the Catholic faith. Look at what the Blessed Mother did in Mexico when she appeared to St. Juan Diego; she converted an entire nation! Why hasn’t she converted Russia? The Blessed Mother does not do things half-way; if she converted Russia, I believe it would be similar to the events in Mexico: a widespread, mass conversion of thousands!
I always thought that the messages of Fatima were concerned with Soviet Russia and the Cold War, both of which are past events; this is why I thought Fatima was no longer relevant to the modern world. The times described by Fatima seem to have passed. Why are the SSPX and others so preoccupied by this apparition? They seem to think that another Consecration will be the answer to all of our prayers. I really hope this is the truth, but I am not sure that Fatima is the solution the traditionalists make it out to be.

I believe the word is millions. Almost if not all the indians in Mexico converted to the Catholic faith.

 

[numealinesimpet]

I believe the word is millions. Almost if not all the Indians in Mexico converted to the Catholic faith.

Yes, within the same few decades, nine million Europeans were lost to the Church through defecting to Protestantism, and nine million “Indians” presented for Baptism.
I have heard people complain, when they hear of entire tribes coming down and being baptised, “But they couldn’t possibly know all about the Catholic Church”. I reply, "But that’s the whole point. They recognised the Truth – and the Mother of God – when they saw Her – and they were willing to take the ‘unknown bits’ on Faith as they came to them. That is so much the Catholic Way. The Protestant perusing the Bible to Decide For Himself is actually not exercising the Virtue of Faith at all.

 

[Art321]

Yes, within the same few decades, nine million Europeans were lost to the Church through defecting to Protestantism, and nine million “Indians” presented for Baptism.
I have heard people complain, when they hear of entire tribes coming down and being baptised, “But they couldn’t possibly know all about the Catholic Church”. I reply, "But that’s the whole point. They recognised the Truth – and the Mother of God – when they saw Her – and they were willing to take the ‘unknown bits’ on Faith as they came to them. That is so much the Catholic Way. The Protestant perusing the Bible to Decide For Himself is actually not exercising the Virtue of Faith at all.

Yes, it is sad that so many catholics became protestants. If the reformation never happened, the church would be twice as big as it is now.

 

[saskatoon]

I think OL of Fatima is still VERY relevant. I think that alot of what she said has/is coming to fruition. She talked of 4 chastisments war, fammine, persecution on the church and of the Holy Father. The last 2 are really hitting head on. OL of Fatima’s message was that we stop sinning and return to God. We seemed to have done the complete opposite and have gotten further and further away from God.

The present state of the world attests to the fact that most individuals have chosen to ignore the requests of Our Lady of Fatima: wars rage the world over, the Church is in a state of crisis, apostasy is almost everywhere, millions of the innocent unborn are murdered every year. And meanwhile God and the Immaculate Heart are increasingly offended, as men continue to draw God’s wrath upon themselves through their stubborn adherence to sin and their refusal to reform their lives in conformity with God’s will."(the message addressed to individuals from OL of Fatima

As far as the consecration of Russia, that was not done. Pope John Paul ll said twice that the consecration of Russia was not done. This was after the world consecration in 1984.

Some of what was stated at Fatima did happen in the past, but there are still things that are happening here and now, in the present. We still have abortion, plus look at everything else that we are doing to our children. Trafiking children for sex slavery, rampant child abuse and murder.

Fatima happened nearly 100 years ago, but the message is just as important now as it was then.

 

[numealinesimpet]

Recently, thanks to CAF, I rediscovered Our Lady of Fatima and I have become a believer. I’ve read many websites, including The Fatima Network of Father Nicholas Gruner. I am aware that Fr. Gruner is not a priest in good standing with the Catholic Church …

Ah! Let me correct you there. Fr Gruner has been meticulous in keeping within the letter of the Law. He is fully legally incardinated with a bishop who has given him specific permission to pursue his apostolate. When he came here to Cork, and the crate was opened with the statue of Our Lady, several present (not including the present writer) smelt a distinct odour of roses. They still speak of this little ‘sign of encouragement’. If you ever go to one of his meetings, you will find that he is very mild-mannered. He even says himself, “I am not an imressive speaker. [He’s not that bad, actually!] Our Lady chose me because she wants her message to come through, with no distractions from my eloquence”. But despite this humble demeanour, he is not one to trifle with, as some of the Big Guns in the Vatican have found out to their cost. He has dedicated his life to Our Lady, and consequently has no human respect, no fear. * “My strength is as the strength of ten, because my heart is pure.”* For example, a very senior Cardinal tried to pressurise Fr Gruner’s bishop to order him to stay in his diocese – in other words, to abandon his Fatima Apostolate – and Fr Gruner wrote to him reminding him that he was breaking Canon Law by attempting to encroach upon the jurisdiction of a fellow bishop. Fr Gruner then lodged a Canonical complaint about the Cardinal, (which must be reviewed by the pope) and the cardinal was consequently dismissed from his post. The Cardinal declared to all within range of hearing that he never wanted to hear Fr Gruner’s name mentioned in his presence again.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Hi again Dempsey. You asked:

How are Our Lady of Fatima and Vatican II linked? I know the Mother of God is interested in the workings of the Church Militant; she would have been present at Vatican II praying for her the Church; but can we say that she told us about the coming of Vatican II in 1917 when she visited Portugal?

I alluded to my opinion that they are linked in my post on your thread which is now closed about turning back the clock. Here is a slightly edited version of what I said previously:

1960 was the year that Sr. Lucia was informed that the third secret of Fatima should have been made known to the world. Pope John XXIII is reported to have opened it, read it, and said that it was “not for our times.” I would like to have seen the results of a Council held in light of the Third Secret of Fatima and the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of our Lady instead of under the table deals with the Russian government to permit a couple of Orthodox observers at the Council in exchange for a promise to not condemn atheistic communism.

In my opinion, Vatican II cannot be understood in its proper context without consideration of the refusal to save Russia in the way it was revealed to the children of Fatima. The way that requires faith, courage, and honors our Lady is salvific. Clearly, the pope wanted to reach out to Russia, and he was a man of goodness and charity. I applaud his motive. But he did it with a political eye, with the eyes of a worldling, and not the light of faith that was given him from above.

This is no denial of Pope John’s status as a Blessed. If the Church says he is heaven, I believe it. But I cannot be persuaded that his was the way Heaven had directed for the Church to approach the problem of atheistic communism, the errors of Russia, and the message of Our Lady of Fatima.

Perhaps you are not familiar with the Council’s refusal to speak out against Russian communism. Surely it was from a desirable motive, the eventual conversion of Russia, that a negotiation with the Soviets resulted in the attendance at Vatican II, of Russian Orthodox representatives, in exchange for a promise to not address the status of atheistic communism at the Council. It seems to me that Pope John was presented with two strategies for overcoming the errors of Russia in the world, and gaining the conversion of that suffering nation. He chose the strategy that did not involve the Message of Our Lady of Fatima, and in my opinion, Russia remains unconverted, thereby proving that either the message is unworthy of belief, or that the prophecy of Russia’s conversion remains future, thus affirming the ongoing importance of the Message of our Lady of Fatima.

I don’t have an opinion as to whether Vatican II is to blame for all the ills that are being suffered in the Church, Russia, and around the world. I am suggesting that choosing to hold a council INSTEAD of consecrating Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary as requested did not obtain the blessed promises associated with the Fatima message. A Council may very well have been appropriate in conjunction with the Consecration of Russia. With the end of the threat of the errors of Russia to the world, and the conversion of the nation, what need would there have been to be soft about the moral horrors associated with communism at the Council? Presumably, converted Russia will one day insist that the Catholic Church condemn Leninism, Stalinism, the Gulag Archipelago, and the Soviet era of the Russians, along with those errors which have continued to flourish even after the death of the official communism out of which they were spawned.

This is partially why I cannot understand the Second Vatican Council apart from the light of the Message of our Lady of Fatima.

Rory

 

[Seamus_L]

I think OLF is as relevant as ever. And as for the 3rd Secret, my personal belief for some time is that it is what we’ve witnessed in the Catholic Church for the past 45 years, i,e a great falling away. The Blessed Mother gave us a clue when she told Blessed Lucia that in Portugal, the doctrine of the faith will be preserved. What does that say about the rest of the world ? I don’t necessarily take that to mean that only in Portugal would the faith be preserved, but I still see the implications for much of the rest of the world as catastrophic.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

How are Our Lady of Fatima and Vatican II linked? I know the Mother of God is interested in the workings of the Church Militant; she would have been present at Vatican II praying for her the Church; but can we say that she told us about the coming of Vatican II in 1917 when she visited Portugal?

It is interesting that you link Our Lady of Fatima with the fall of the Berlin Wall; I would go further and suggest that the Blessed Virgin played a huge role in the collapse of the Soviet system throughout the world. The Fatima message seems to be fulfilled. But what about the conversion of Russia? Russia has not been converted to the Catholic faith. Look at what the Blessed Mother did in Mexico when she appeared to St. Juan Diego; she converted an entire nation! Why hasn’t she converted Russia? The Blessed Mother does not do things half-way; if she converted Russia, I believe it would be similar to the events in Mexico: a widespread, mass conversion of thousands!

The Third Secret of Fatima was actually about all that would occur at the Vatican II Council.

And Russia will be converted when the Pope converts it. SSPX has completed a Rosary crusade to have him convert it, let’s hope he does and soon! JPII “attempted” to convert it but he didn’t do it right. Not all bishops of the world were present.

 

[Lamafacaja]

I believe that Russia is far more dangerous now than it ever was as the Soviet Union. Russia has many enemies surrounding her borders. Russia still needs to be converted. Pope JPII converted the world to Mary’s Immaculate Heart, but that’s not what the Blessed Mother asked for. She asked specifically that Russia be consecrated. I pray BXVI’ll do this, soon please God. I believe we are really running out of time before the chastisement, which will be horrible.

 

[Flame4]

You can always pray to out Lady

 

[KathleenGee]

I speak Portuguese, although it is not very fluent. But Sr Lucia said that the consecration had been done, and the message was written on a small piece of paper.

English uses far less words than Portuguese.

The consecration was done by Pope John Paul II in March of 1984 when previous to that the Soviet Union was doing military maneuvers at the Polish border, and that 3 premiers died in quick succession. A devotee from the ‘inside line’, said that the USSR was definitely preparing for war, there was also the downing of a Korean passenger jetliner at the end of August, 1983 over the Salkienan Island (spelling).

There was Breshnyev who finally died and did not have a very happy look on his face in his open casket, then another whose name began with a K, and then Andropov who was the former head of the KGB.

You can attribute to the KGB that the opposition to the United States and the Vatican comes from this source, they being the best propaganda machine the world has ever known with its disinformation. The Muslim Brotherhood was encountered by the Bolsheviks in the early '30’s, and appear to have learned something from them.

There is so much error or disinformation in the world. It was also of an opinion that perhaps some day Russia would be of great help to the world.

The rosary is most powerful and I continue to follow the message of Fatima by continuing to pray for Russia, in particular seeing its support of Iran. John Paul II said that only praying the rosary and the implication of doing penance can stop terrorism.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

My dear friends

I think the message of Fatima is about the end times as once Cardinal Ratzinger said. Hence it will be relevant until the end of the world if it is. I believe there is great difficulty getting the consecration done as our Lady asked because She wants an immense triumph of Her Immaculate Heart in the end. It will take an immense triumph now. I personally think Her heart has triumphed now judging by all events. My own opinion is that a correct consecration is required asap, then Russias open acceptance and more than tolerance of catholicism within it’s borders will be the sign of it’s conversion. I don’t think the whole 3rd secret has been revealed yet.

God bless

John

 

[michaeldaniels]

Well according to the logic of some of the “Catholics” I have experienced in every day and encountered on this board, I would say NO since it happened before Vatican II…because nothing that happened before Vatican II is worthy of worship or belief…And yes, I am being sarcastic…I know I certainly believe in Fatima and believe it is relevant.

 

[unafraid]

Pope John Paul II certainly felt that Our Lady of Fatima was sill relevant in modernity. In fact, he attributed his miraculous survival of the assassination attempt directly to intervention by Our Lady of Fatima. He placed the very bullet which pierced his flesh in the church there, where it is held to this very day.

As an aside, I have always found it interesting that Our Lady appeared in a place named after a daughter of the Prophet Mohammed…Fatima. Islam holds Mother Mary in very high regard, and she is mentioned often in the Qur’an. Interesting intersection.

 

[momor]

… For example, a very senior Cardinal tried to pressurise Fr Gruner’s bishop to order him to stay in his diocese – in other words, to abandon his Fatima Apostolate – and Fr Gruner wrote to him reminding him that he was breaking Canon Law by attempting to encroach upon the jurisdiction of a fellow bishop. Fr Gruner then lodged a Canonical complaint about the Cardinal, (which must be reviewed by the pope) and the cardinal was consequently dismissed from his post. The Cardinal declared to all within range of hearing that he never wanted to hear Fr Gruner’s name mentioned in his presence again.

You seem unwilling to mention this cardinal’s name. Why? If what you say happened, it is neither revealing a secret nor slanderous to do so.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Fr Gruner has been meticulous in keeping within the letter of the Law. He is fully legally incardinated with a bishop who has given him specific permission to pursue his apostolate.

I heard a priest mention Father Gruner in a his sermon during Mass one Sunday. I remember being troubled by this because I thought Father Gruner was not in full communion with the Church; many people dispute his good standing with the Church. When I began reading his website, I was unsure about the truthfulness of the information it contains; now that I know he is in good standing, I will listen to his message with unbiased ears.

This is partially why I cannot understand the Second Vatican Council apart from the light of the Message of our Lady of Fatima.

Rory, you have convinced me; I now agree that Vatican II and Fatima are intertwined. We do not know if the full, unreleased third secret contains information specifically about Vatican II, but we do know that it contains information about a general state of apostasy and disorientation in the Church; and I believe John XXIII convened the Council to deal with this situation. I believe His Holiness anticipated the current state of affairs and that Vatican II was his attempt to prevent the crisis in the Church; however, I think he should have relied on the weapons Our Lady gave us at Fatima, namely: the Consecration of Russia and the Rosary.

The Third Secret of Fatima was actually about all that would occur at the Vatican II Council.

What makes you think this? I think Vatican II and Fatima are intertwined; I am sure an ecumenical council would have interested the Blessed Mother and I am sure an event of this magnitude would have been part of her message for mankind at Fatima. However, I don’t think that the Third Secret was only about Vatican II; if the secret was about an ecumenical council, which caused widespread disorientation and apostasy, John XXIII would not have convened Vatican II; he called the Council to save the Church, not destroy her. The Third Secret mentions that the doctrine of the faith will be preserved in Portugal; John XXIII may have read this and convened the Council to prevent a mass apostasy. I have a hard time believing that the Council was the cause of the current crisis; I believe the current crisis was foretold by Our Lady at Fatima, and that John XXIII decided to call the Council to prevent this crisis; I think that Vatican II is response to Fatima.

The consecration was done by Pope John Paul II in March of 1984

John Paul II consecrated the world to the Immaculate Heart; he did not mention Russia. Our Lady specifically asked for Russia to be consecrated to her Immaculate Heart; she did not ask for the consecration of the world. For this reason, many people, including myself, believe that the Consecration has not been done.

Pope John Paul II certainly felt that Our Lady of Fatima was sill relevant in modernity. In fact, he attributed his miraculous survival of the assassination attempt directly to intervention by Our Lady of Fatima. He placed the very bullet which pierced his flesh in the church there, where it is held to this very day.

A lot of people think the assassination attempt on John Paul II was a fulfilment of the Third Secret, but I am not sure about this. The assassination attempt on John Paul II does not really correspond to the events described by Lucia in her recollections.