Is Our Lady of Fatima Still Relevant?

[VitaminC]

Regarding the “gagging” of Sr. Lucia. Are you sure this wasn’t done by her Mother Superior?

No, the order came from the Vatican; specifically, the Vatican Secretary of State. Fr. Malachi Martin wrote about it.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

I don’t agree with anything you post. TWO SISTER LUCIA’S !!

I don’t care. You have your opinion, I have mine.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

That in itself is against the “imposter” thesis. If they had really replaced her with a double, they’d’ve picked somebody who resembled her very closely.

Tell me how they’d be able to find someone who looked alomst exactly like her. And remember, there was about an 8 year period between the last time the real Sister Lucia appeared, and the first time the imposter appeared, so they were hoping people would think she just naturally changed.

 

[jkburdette4]

I speak Portuguese, although it is not very fluent. But Sr Lucia said that the consecration had been done, and the message was written on a small piece of paper.

English uses far less words than Portuguese.

The consecration was done by Pope John Paul II in March of 1984 when previous to that the Soviet Union was doing military maneuvers at the Polish border, and that 3 premiers died in quick succession. A devotee from the ‘inside line’, said that the USSR was definitely preparing for war, there was also the downing of a Korean passenger jetliner at the end of August, 1983 over the Salkienan Island (spelling).

There was Breshnyev who finally died and did not have a very happy look on his face in his open casket, then another whose name began with a K, and then Andropov who was the former head of the KGB.

You can attribute to the KGB that the opposition to the United States and the Vatican comes from this source, they being the best propaganda machine the world has ever known with its disinformation. The Muslim Brotherhood was encountered by the Bolsheviks in the early '30’s, and appear to have learned something from them.

There is so much error or disinformation in the world. It was also of an opinion that perhaps some day Russia would be of great help to the world.

The rosary is most powerful and I continue to follow the message of Fatima by continuing to pray for Russia, in particular seeing its support of Iran. John Paul II said that only praying the rosary and the implication of doing penance can stop terrorism.

Russia has not been Converted like Our Lady ask at Fatima. Praying the Rosary will be only way Peace will be in World end to Abortion.

 

[numealinesimpet]

Tell me how they’d be able to find someone who looked alomst exactly like her. And remember, there was about an 8 year period between the last time the real Sister Lucia appeared, and the first time the imposter appeared, so they were hoping people would think she just naturally changed.

Well, we haven’t DNA samples … & even if we had, how could we trust the lab workers 100%? Remember what a farce they made of the carbon dating of the Holy Shroud.
I will have to stick to my earlier comment. If it really is the same Sr Lucia, then she could change naturally as she ages. Some do this more than others. But if ‘they’ had planted an imposter – which would take a lot of organisation – they would never be so incompetent as to use somebody who was not sufficiently like her (all you see is the face in a wimple) to eliminate that kind of objection.

To repeat, the suggestion is quite un-necessary; it has been used many times when somebody mysteriously changes their mind on something important; it goes against common sense, and it brings ridicule on the whole investigation. It is exactly the kind of thing that will turn people away from serious investigation of the issues. I would recommend Socci’s analysis, in preference, any time.

 

[numealinesimpet]

Regarding the “gagging” of Sr. Lucia. Are you sure this wasn’t done by her Mother Superior? In the writings or story of St. Bernadette it indicates that she was rather marginalized by her own order to protect her humility. It would be very easy for a seer to become a celebrity and possibly sin seriously in the process. I can see this being the case for Sr. Lucia only being allowed to speak to certain priests. Regarding family visitors only, many orders of nuns didn’t allow visitors except for close family on rare occasions. While the statement may be true, it doesn’t necessarily mean anything funny is going on.

So much of what you have listed from the book can be construed in a different manner to mean something entirely different than the spin being put on it. Do you think the Blessed Mother would allow clergy to hide what she wanted known and lie about it? I find it hard to believe.

Well it comes down to personal judgment. I would definitely recommend reading the whole of Socci’s book, which has caused a great stir in Italy – even the taxi drivers in rome are discussing it. Socci & paulini were manhandled to keep them out of a Press conference that was reun by Cdl Bertone to promote the “Official Verson”. It was his own security men, known in rome. At the Press conference, hand-picked members of the audience asked everything but the real questions.

Do you think the Blessed Mother would allow clergy to hide what she wanted known and lie about it? I find it hard to believe.

Well, from a reading of history, I’m afraid the answer is Yes.
In 1916 & 1929 we were told what to do. We didn’t do it. The Bp Of Leiria shirked his duty. God can punish such things by leaving us to the consequences of our sins. Consider King Louis XIV of France. He could have averted the French Revolution. Because he failed in his task, God allowed it to happen.

 

[numealinesimpet]

Well it comes down to personal judgment. I would definitely recommend reading the whole of Socci’s book, which has caused a great stir in Italy – even the taxi drivers in Rome are discussing it.

I heard this from a daughter who lives 15 miles outside Rome.

Socci & Paulini were manhandled to keep them out of a Press conference that was run by Cdl Bertone to promote the “Official Verson”. It was his own security men, known in Rome.

This rather backfired – it was videoed (you can’t get away with too much these days) and the local papers joyfully splashed it over the front pages – “Bertone’s Gorillas rough up Socci and Paulini!” (Remember these are well-known figures in Italy).

At the Press conference, hand-picked members of the audience asked everything but the real questions.

 

[thomas_jd]

There has been a lot of suggested articles to read on these past pages. Here are a few more.
1: The significance of Fatima: Author: Rev.Frederick L. Miller S.T.D.
2: The Message of Fatima: Author: Congregation For The Doctrine Of The Faith
3: Gods Final Effort : Author: John M. Haffert
4: The Message Of Fatima: Author: Sister Lucia
5: “Calls” Author: Sister Lucia
Pay attention to # 4& 5. She was the one CHOSEN BY GOD to spread the Message OF Fatima. That is if you believe the message to be authentic, if not read whatever you want, by whomever.
The Catholic Church officially endorsed the Fatima Message in 1930. Five successive Popes have also endorsed the Message.
Our Ladys words to Lucia at the second apparition June 13, 1917.“Yes. I will take Jacinta and Francisco soon. But you are to stay here some time longer. Jesus wishes to make me known and loved. He wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart.” Read Sr. Lucia’s books and learn how she accomplished Our Lady’s request !

’

 

[KathleenGee]

I read the link Peary gave and read the Portuguese as best I could…and the passages were never known about the symbolic image of the Pope and the Church.

Millions and millions of people have died under communism, but we know alot more about Nazism.

Well, when i come back I will share with you about some priests who did live the Fatima message.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

Well, we haven’t DNA samples … & even if we had, how could we trust the lab workers 100%? Remember what a farce they made of the carbon dating of the Holy Shroud.
I will have to stick to my earlier comment. If it really is the same Sr Lucia, then she could change naturally as she ages. Some do this more than others. But if ‘they’ had planted an imposter – which would take a lot of organisation – they would never be so incompetent as to use somebody who was not sufficiently like her (all you see is the face in a wimple) to eliminate that kind of objection.

To repeat, the suggestion is quite un-necessary; it has been used many times when somebody mysteriously changes their mind on something important; it goes against common sense, and it brings ridicule on the whole investigation. It is exactly the kind of thing that will turn people away from serious investigation of the issues. I would recommend Socci’s analysis, in preference, any time.

You have to atleast acknowledge the strong possibility, though. They looked nothing alike. Their handwriting was different. She lived until 93 I think it was. How many people live that long? And if Our Lady told her about how Russia must be consecrated, why would she say it was complete when JPII didn’t even do it right? Our Lady also spoke of a great chastizement that would take place following the consecration, yet nothing like that has taken place yet! Exactly why SSPX is trying to get this pope to do it. Clues are all around you. You must examine them carefully instead of brushing it off just because it doesn’t seem likely.

 

[numealinesimpet]

You have to at least acknowledge the strong possibility, though.

(that Sr Lucia has been replaced by an imposter, who says that the consecration of Russia has been done).

Clues are all around you. You must examine them carefully instead of brushing it off just because it doesn’t seem likely.

That is a very valid comment, and it is what a discussion forum is for. Speaking personally, I do weigh the evidence and I find the idea of a “counterfeit” Sr Lucia completely unconvincing…

They looked nothing alike.

I disagree. the difference is not impossibly great. And ‘they’, if they were powerful enough to do a swap, would be able to produce a convincing-enough double…

Their handwriting was different.

Her handwritten letters etc have been examined by reputable graphologists and they say that it is genuine. c.f. the appendix to Socci’s “Fourth Secret”.

She lived until 93 I think it was. How many people live that long?

Well, my mother-in-law turned 96 just this week… some do, some don’t.

And if Our Lady told her about how Russia must be consecrated, why would she say it was complete when JPII didn’t even do it right?

Socci & Fr Kramer show that she did not ever say that in any properly-authenticated statement, right up until her death.

Our Lady also spoke of a great chastizement that would take place following the consecration, yet nothing like that has taken place yet!

There is nothing like that at all in the authentic messages. Where did you get that? What she said was that ’if it is not done…the good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated. In Portugal, the dogmas of the Faith will always be kept etc". [Here follow Our Lady’s words of ‘the third Secret’ which have never been published]… In the End, my Immaculate heart will triumph, the Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me and she will be converted, and God will grant a period of peace to the world.’

Exactly why SSPX is trying to get this pope to do it.

The SSPX hold firm on certain points, but do not lose their heads. They expelled seminarians who have insisted that the Popes are imposters, they deny that the Collegial Consecration of Russia has been carried out or accepted, and they reject any suggestions that Sr Lucia is an imposter. Not only has the pope withdrawn the decree of excommunication, he has organised ‘Discussions’ about the interpretation of Vatican II, which anyone can see is open to misinterpretation. No other Religious Order has got that far. Their good sense and refusal to give in to illegitimate demands are paying off. But that belongs on another thread, I think.

The clinching argument against a counterfeit Sr Lucy is this: If ‘they’ (whoever ‘they’ are) had really enough power to install a counterfeit Sr Lucia,* the very last thing they would do is to leave her hanging around for decades, when at any time she could give the game away by some slip of the tongue.* Obviously, what they would have done is stage just one appearance, in which she said everything they wanted people to believe, then quietly ‘kill her off’ … release a Press Statement that she had ‘died peacefully after a short illness.’ If they could stage an imposture in the first place, they could certainly spirit away the real Sr Lucia somewhere else, or even quietly accomplish their Press Statement ‘with a little help’ – After all, that has happened before in the history of the Church.
The belief that there is a counterfeit Sr Lucia in the convent for decades on end strikes me (if you forgive me) as silly, and in defiance fo all common sense. The actual truth is bad enough.

 

[numealinesimpet]

Our lady of Fatima’s message is that neither the conversion of Russia nor World Peace will be obtained in our time except by the Collegial Consecration. It will be an extremely public event, which will hold the Catholic church up to being a worldwide laughing-stock if nothing happens. That is our Act of reparation for our own lukewarmness and negligence. “When” Russia is converted after this, it will be obvious to all that the collegial consecration really was the cause.
I have no idea what will happen after the consecration. But there was an earthquake in Rome during the simple Act of reparation in the Fatima Basilica and consecration of just four bishops and a couple of thousand of the Faithful, as recounted in an earlier posting. I think sometimes that maybe the Russians will see a repeat of the Miracle of the Sun. Just a guess.

 

[Dempsey1919]

The Russians have an apostolic Church which can trace it’s heritage back as far as our own, that this Church has been damaged badly over a 70 year period does not mean it has ceased to exist and it is slowly regaining ground. Also I do not put ANY faith in Fatima and nor am I required to as a Catholic, as believe in it or any other apparition is not required of us. The ‘conversion’ of Russia strikes me another episode in the polemics both Orthodox and Catholics like to indulge in at times regarding each other’s Churches. I am content been Catholic, my family members who are Orthodox are content been so and I have no wish to attempt to damage their faith or they mine.

I respect your disbelief in Fatima; you are not obligated to believe in this private revelation. However, as a Catholic you must believe that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church and that Christ founded the Catholic Church upon Peter the Rock. You must also believe that the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth; the Orthodox have elements of truth, but they do not have the fullness of truth; they reject the divine institution of the Papacy; they reject Papal Infallibility; they reject the Primacy of Rome. The Catholic Church alone possesses the complete truth. Why don’t you want the Russian people to have the fullness of truth? Why do you want to keep them from perfect communion with the Successor of St. Peter?

The Russians have beautiful customs and traditions; they have beautiful prayers, liturgy, theology. By re-uniting with the Successor of Peter and entering into full communion with Rome, they would retain all of this; they would lose nothing but gain a lot; they would gain the fullness of truth. If you are Catholic you should want to convert the Russian people to the fullness of truth; you should want them to enter the Barque of Peter.

 

[callmeChris]

I still believe the message is relevant to today.

“I saw the Holy Father in a very big house, kneeling by a table, with his head buried in his hands, and he was weeping. Outside the house, there were many people. Some of them were throwing stones, others were cursing him and using bad language. Poor Holy Father, we must pray very much for him.” - Jacinta, (child-seer of Fatima, Portugal) Fatima In Lucia’s Own Words

I FIRMLY believe that the Holy Father she was referring to was pope Paul VI. But this can also go for John Paul II, and benedict the XVI as it clearly shows in the media.

When Our Lady appeared to veronica Lueken on April 7 (My birthday) in 1970 she and Jesus gave many startling messages concerning our Government, and the Church in the State it was now in. This happened until her death in 1995 ( A year after my birth).

tldm.org/default.htm

roses.org/

She said that the third secret of Fatima was this: How I warned and warned that satan would enter into the highest realms of the hierarchy in Rome. The Third Secret, My child, is that satan would enter into My Son’s Church." - Our Lady, May 13, 1978

And as you can see, the Forces of Darkness are working within, AND outside the walls of the Church, Attacking the pope and changing almost EVERYTHING.

 

[KathleenGee]

Our archbishop was among the most controversial in 1984…and as someone said, he outdid himself, and did consecrate our archdiocese and the world according to the Fatima message…this somewhere in the NW.

As Catholics, we relate to Scripture more in cooperation. Same thing with the message of Fatima. It took some time, it was late – Neo Marxism/Globalism is taking over America right before our eyes–but many of us continue to pray for the conversion of Russia…for their cooperation to take place.

With the downfall of the Soviet Union, many families brought their icons back out into the public. There is a restoration of the practice of faith in Russia. And one patriarch there is now seeing the Orthodox and Latin people need to be more united. This is a great promise for unity of faith.

To fulfill the consecration of Fatima, it was done, and I know many bishops in America did follow the Holy Father. But the response always involves a spirit of cooperation. I read on the Pravda that America is sliding head on into Marxism and it didn’t work for Russia. Even Putin warned Obama et al, that their ideas would not work well.

So yes, we do need to promote the rosary and penance.

I read a visitor’s observation on visiting Medgugorje, and how she saw two different women working outside but praying the rosary as they worked. Now that is the kind of practice we should have if we want to see Russia turn and become a great help to us and world peace.

 

[KathleenGee]

The other I wish to share is regarding an obituary in the old Fatima magazine.

I believe it was 1984 or 5. Fr Schindler…spelling may not be correct. Fr Schindler was a Jesuit and lived with 6 or 7 other German Jesuit priests serving as missionaries in Japan during WWII.

They were stationed either in Nagasaki or Hiroshima. The bomb dropped not far from them. Fr Schindler said he was suddenly picked up like a leaf twirling in the wind, and then thrown outside into a ditch. He suffered a broken leg.

Fr Schindler and all the other Jesuits survived the atomic blast while others around them died. Up until 1960, over 200 scientists did studies on them as they had no signs of radiation. He attributed it to living out the daily request of Our Lady of Fatima.

This gave me great courage and never to fear any human punishment again in this world.

If we live in prayer, constant prayer like St. Paul exhorts us, and go about what we are supposed to do in sacrificial (following Christ with the cross) in our daily lives, we are living in Christ’s kingdom.

There is so much peace and protection for people living in and around Medgugorje.

The message is more about a way of life that we must always continue.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

(that Sr Lucia has been replaced by an imposter, who says that the consecration of Russia has been done). That is a very valid comment, and it is what a discussion forum is for. Speaking personally, I do weigh the evidence and I find the idea of a “counterfeit” Sr Lucia completely unconvincing… I disagree. the difference is not impossibly great. And ‘they’, if they were powerful enough to do a swap, would be able to produce a convincing-enough double… Her handwritten letters etc have been examined by reputable graphologists and they say that it is genuine. c.f. the appendix to Socci’s “Fourth Secret”. Well, my mother-in-law turned 96 just this week… some do, some don’t. Socci & Fr Kramer show that she did not ever say that in any properly-authenticated statement, right up until her death. There is nothing like that at all in the authentic messages. Where did you get that? What she said was that ’if it is not done…the good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated. In Portugal, the dogmas of the Faith will always be kept etc". [Here follow Our Lady’s words of ‘the third Secret’ which have never been published]… In the End, my Immaculate heart will triumph, the Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me and she will be converted, and God will grant a period of peace to the world.’ The SSPX hold firm on certain points, but do not lose their heads. They expelled seminarians who have insisted that the Popes are imposters, they deny that the Collegial Consecration of Russia has been carried out or accepted, and they reject any suggestions that Sr Lucia is an imposter. Not only has the pope withdrawn the decree of excommunication, he has organised ‘Discussions’ about the interpretation of Vatican II, which anyone can see is open to misinterpretation. No other Religious Order has got that far. Their good sense and refusal to give in to illegitimate demands are paying off. But that belongs on another thread, I think.

The clinching argument against a counterfeit Sr Lucy is this: If ‘they’ (whoever ‘they’ are) had really enough power to install a counterfeit Sr Lucia,* the very last thing they would do is to leave her hanging around for decades, when at any time she could give the game away by some slip of the tongue.* Obviously, what they would have done is stage just one appearance, in which she said everything they wanted people to believe, then quietly ‘kill her off’ … release a Press Statement that she had ‘died peacefully after a short illness.’ If they could stage an imposture in the first place, they could certainly spirit away the real Sr Lucia somewhere else, or even quietly accomplish their Press Statement ‘with a little help’ – After all, that has happened before in the history of the Church.
The belief that there is a counterfeit Sr Lucia in the convent for decades on end strikes me (if you forgive me) as silly, and in defiance fo all common sense. The actual truth is bad enough.

1.- If I can find an article I saw showing you pictures of how the real and imposter Lucia looked, I will post it. Because in order for her to have looked the way she did during/after Vatican II, she would have needed plastic surgery and dental work. The most convincing clue that there were two Sister Lucias (aside from them not looking alike) is the fact that for a while Lucia was not allowed to be visited by anyone. Why would nobody be allowed to see her for a long period of time? If you think about it, you’ll eventually understand why…

2.- Just because her handwriting was approved doesn’t mean it’s valid. And I guess something better to prove my point on the whole age thing is that I doubt God would have required her to live until 93 since Our Lady said she would “keep her around for a bit longer” or something like that.

3.- You left out the part where Our Lady speaks of a great chastizement. Have you ever heard of the three days of darkness? She doesn’t specifically mention that, but that’s what she’s talking about. It’s supposed to come after the conversion of Russia. That is, if it’s converted in time.

4.-She did say JPII had completed the conversion. She said so in an interview. When asked she just said “yes”. Obviously the real Lucia would have said no because JPII didn’t do it right. And the reason they planted an imposter Lucia is so that the real one would not speak out against anything that was happening at Vatican II. Vatican II is one thing Our Lady talks about in the real Third Secret. And consider this: If Luica was told the real Third Secret by Our Lady and the secret that was released in 2000 wasn’t true, why didn’t Lucia speak out against it and say it wasn’t the real secret? Like I said, there’s plenty of evidence.

 

[numealinesimpet]

The Russians received the Faith via the Byzantines – the Greek Orthodox. But the Greeks were in communion with Rome for centuries before foolish political and cultural issues led the Byzantines into schism. The Russians adopted this orientation without much real reflection or analysis.
These things are too important not to express openly.
Because they did not inherit the ‘separation of powers’ of Church and State, they fell into the same trap as the Byzantines. The Church became subservient to the organ of government under the Czars, which suited the Bolsheviks just fine. They slaughtered the faithful clergy, and enlisted the remainder into their regime. Because the latter had no tradition of standing in oposition to the State, their subversion was easy. Both the Metropolitan “Observers” sent to Vatican II were proven KGB agents.

 

[momor]

I respect your disbelief in Fatima; you are not obligated to believe in this private revelation. However, as a Catholic you must believe that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church and that Christ founded the Catholic Church upon Peter the Rock. You must also believe that the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth; the Orthodox have elements of truth, but they do not have the fullness of truth; they reject the divine institution of the Papacy; they reject Papal Infallibility; they reject the Primacy of Rome. The Catholic Church alone possesses the complete truth. Why don’t you want the Russian people to have the fullness of truth? Why do you want to keep them from perfect communion with the Successor of St. Peter?

The Russians have beautiful customs and traditions; they have beautiful prayers, liturgy, theology. By re-uniting with the Successor of Peter and entering into full communion with Rome, they would retain all of this; they would lose nothing but gain a lot; they would gain the fullness of truth. If you are Catholic you should want to convert the Russian people to the fullness of truth; you should want them to enter the Barque of Peter.

I always understood the conversion of Russia to mean that it would turn away from atheistic communism and back to it’s orthodox roots. Not that the Blessed Mother was calling for a conversion to the Latin Rite. But I could be wrong.

 

[Seamus_L]

We still pray for the conversion of Russia to Catholicism and not the Orthodox Church, because that would mean praying that the Russian people remain out of communion with the Holy Father. What would a converted Russia look like ? Maybe something like L’viv, with mostly Byzantine churches with a few Roman Catholic ones. Who knows