Is Our Lady of Fatima Still Relevant?

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kevin,

That would do for an elaboration of the third secret…what is worse than to lose one’s faith?..through the Catholic Church.
 
I truly trust in Our Lady’s words, with all my heart and soul. But we must look at world history after the Bolshevik Revolution (1917-1918), and how Russia became the first truly Godless nation in modern times. And how this Godlessness has now spread worldwide. Look at Russia abortion rate, her divorce rate, and the break up of families. Which has spread worldwide. But the Bolsheviks also needed help in their revolution (money, weapons), and where did that come from? Look very closely at history. And yes the answer, is praying our Rosary. Also look at eugenics, which was a popular form of racism amongest the intellectual elite of the 1920’ ans 30’s, who were supporters of the revolution. Margaret Sanger, foundress of the Planned Parenthood - the extermination of human weeds, the cessation of charity, those morons, misfits, and the sterilization of genetically inferior races. “The Negro Project.” And there are notes suggesting that she was a suppoter of the Bolsheviks. They spoke of Modernism. But who has the time to read everything. We must just pray and trust in God, and our Holy Mother.
Very clever post David, I’m watching you.
 
They were about 70,000, ten times less the number you quote. Many people, nonetheless.
Oops! sorry! :eek:I should proof-read more carefully! Yes, I meant 70,000.
People who have spoken to the eyewitnesses have said to me that 70,000 was the lower number, & maybe 100,000 were there. Some books give 50,000, but the people I spoke with insist that this is too low.
 
Many pages back on this thread, it was queried whether Sr Lucy was really silenced by the Vatican, or just by her Mother Superior. Here is the evidence.
The following is (very lightly) edited from Ch 6 of “The Devil’s Final Battle”, online at
devilsfinalbattle.com/ch6.htm
On February 8, 1960 (just over a year after the Council had been called), the Vatican issued the following anonymous announcement through the A.N.I. press agency:

Vatican City, February 8, 1960 (A.N.I.) – It is probable that the “Secret of Fatima” will never be made public. In Vatican circles highly worthy of belief, they have just declared to the representative of United Press International that it is most likely the letter will never be opened, in which Sister Lucy wrote down the words which the Virgin Mary addressed to the three shepherds of the Cova da Iria … It is most probable that the “Secret of Fatima” will remain forever under absolute seal.
*******And in the same communiqué we find the first direct attack from Vatican sources on the credibility of the Message of Fatima as a whole:

Although the Church recognizes the Fatima apparitions, She does not pledge Herself to guarantee the veracity of the words which the three shepherds claim to have heard from Our Lady.
*******Claim to have heard? Could there be any doubt about the veracity of their testimony after the Miracle of the Sun? Could there be any question that they had been given an authentic prophecy from Heaven in view of the complete fulfillment of every prediction in the Message thus far—from the imminent end of World War I, to the spread of Russia’s errors, to World War II and the election of Pope Pius XI?

*******This first public attack on the Message of Fatima from within the Vatican apparatus comes in 1960, as the Vatican begins to pursue a new orientation of the Church that will arise … at the Second Vatican Council. Consider these developments surrounding the February 8, 1960 communiqué:
Code:
•	The communiqué publicly questions the veracity of Lucy, Jacinta, and Francisco.

•	From 1960 forward, Sister Lucy is silenced on orders of the Vatican apparatus,[5] so she could not defend herself from the implied accusation that her testimony is unreliable.
The documents in the official Fatima archives, which Father Alonso will compile between 1965 and 1976, (more than 5,000 documents in 24 volumes) will be barred from publication, even though these documents confirm that the Fatima prophecies in the first two parts of the Secret (the election of Pope Pius XI, the coming of World War II, the spread of Communism throughout the world, etc.) had been revealed privately by Sister Lucy long before their fulfillment, and that her testimony was utterly accurate and reliable.

(Footnote 5:
Jesuit Father Aparicio was Sister Lucy’s confessor and spiritual director from 1926 to 1938. Then he was sent to Brazil as a missionary and corresponded with Sister Lucy over the years. In 1950 he returned to Portugal for a short while and visited Sister Lucy both in 1950 and in 1951 without difficulty.

Father Aparicio testified that in August 1960, during a month-long visit to Portugal, he was not allowed to speak to Sister Lucy: “I have not been able to speak to Sister Lucy because the Archbishop could not give the permission to meet her. The conditions of isolation in which she finds herself have been imposed by the Holy See. Consequently, no one may speak to her without a licence from Rome. The Archbishop has only a very limited number of those licences.” (Fatima: Tragedy and Triumph, Immaculate Heart Publications, 1994, pp. 33-34.)

The situation [did not change until her death on 13 February 2005].

On January 16, 1983 Father Joseph de Sainte-Marie, O.C. wrote to the eminent Catholic layman Hamish Fraser to advise that:

“Moreover, I remind you—she (Sister Lucy) herself reminded me recently in a request that I had addressed to her—that Sister Lucia (Lucy) cannot speak to anyone on the question of the apparitions without the express permission of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith or of the Holy Father himself.” (*The Fatima Crusader, *No. 13-14, p. 13)

And on March 19, 1983 Sister Lucy told the Papal Nuncio to Portugal, Most Reverend Sante Portalupi, that she had not been able to comment earlier on the inadequacy of the 1982 consecration ceremony (of the world, not Russia) because the Holy See had not given her permission to speak:** “The Consecration of Russia has not been made as Our Lady demanded. I could not say so (before) because I did not have permission of the Holy See.”** (Ibid. at p. 3, and The Fatima Crusader, Issue 16, Sept.-Oct. 1984, p. 22ff, reprinting the article by Father Pierre Caillon in * Fidelite Catholique,* first printed in 1983.)

On February 19, 1990, Msgr. A. Duarte de Almeida, chaplain to the Coimbra Carmel, stated the following: “in order to meet Sister Lucy, it is necessary to obtain Cardinal Ratzinger’s permission.” (In David Boyce, “Fatima Inquest - August 1990”, The Fatima Crusader, Issue 35, Winter 1990-1991, p. 13).

As recently as the purported “interview” of Sister Lucy by Msgr. Bertone on November 17, 2001, Msgr. Bertone admitted (in his communiqué concerning the interview) that it had been conducted with the *consent *of Cardinal Ratzinger. Thus, as recently as 2001 even a high-ranking Vatican prelate needed the Holy See’s permission to speak with Sister Lucy.

Whatever is really going on in “the corridors” of the Vatican concerning Fatima, at least we can be sure that Pope Benedict knows all about it.
 
Oops! sorry! :eek:I should proof-read more carefully! Yes, I meant 70,000.
People who have spoken to the eyewitnesses have said to me that 70,000 was the lower number, & maybe 100,000 were there. Some books give 50,000, but the people I spoke with insist that this is too low.
I would go for the middle number — but the order of magnitude is the same.
 
Although the Church recognizes the Fatima apparitions, She does not pledge Herself to guarantee the veracity of the words which the three shepherds claim to have heard from Our Lady.

Whatever is really going on in “the corridors” of the Vatican concerning Fatima, at least we can be sure that Pope Benedict knows all about it.
Why don’t people interpret this in a more benign way — that even though the little shepherds did see the Virgin Mary and the angels, they were nonetheless children, and could have misunderstood part of what Our Lady told them? In dealing with these supremely important events, isn’t a great deal of prudence warranted?
 
Catholic Online has an article out regarding Russian Patriarch Krill, who says Russia can help the West because it has come out of the worst persecutions. He is calling for great and deep renewal of faith in Russia, and opposes the pan European government values of euthanasia, abortion, pornography and brothels, as well as drug trafficking.

My parish priest always thought the conversion of Russia would take a 100 years, and there is common sentiment that some day Russia would be of great help to the world.

I think that we should all work to pray the rosary with the parish atleast at one Sunday Mass every weekend.
 
Whatever is really going on in “the corridors” of the Vatican concerning Fatima, at least we can be sure that Pope Benedict knows all about it.
After reading the complete text provided I am as confused and dismayed as ever. The only thing we can be sure of is, as you state above, “Pope Benedict knows all about it.” I don’t know if that is a comfort or a curse.

As for Sr. Lucy, may she rest in peace, the only thing that can lay to rest any question of identity would be a DNA test of the remains buried in 2005. However, there’s not a chance in hell Pope Beneidct would allow t his.

I remain very disturbed and saddened.
 
Why don’t people interpret this in a more benign way — that even though the little shepherds did see the Virgin Mary and the angels, they were nonetheless children, and could have misunderstood part of what Our Lady told them? In dealing with these supremely important events, isn’t a great deal of prudence warranted?
Sr Lucy always insisted that all the words of Our Lady were burned indelibly into her memory. It is clear that Cdl ertone tried to get her to say that the still-unpublished part of the third secret was not really authentic or reliable, but she refused to be pushed into saying it.

I would think it very inept of Our Lady to came down from Heaven and then deliver her message to people who were incapable of delivering it properly. The same argument is, to my mind, conclusive for the reliability of the gospels, against those who claim the evangelists distorted the Gospel Story…
 
After reading the complete text provided I am as confused and dismayed as ever. The only thing we can be sure of is, as you state above, “Pope Benedict knows all about it.” I don’t know if that is a comfort or a curse.

As for Sr. Lucy, may she rest in peace, the only thing that can lay to rest any question of identity would be a DNA test of the remains buried in 2005. However, there’s not a chance in hell Pope Benedict would allow this.
I would say that it is beyond any reasonable doubt that there was no “double”. The religious vows of obedience, and the documented facts, do not require such a step to have been taken while common sense negates it (if ‘they’ really had done such a thing, they would keep the imposter around for just long enough to make one definitive statement, then quietly get rid of her in case she gave the game away.) But even a DNA test would be disbelieved by the unreasonable doubters, who would simply concoct another conspiracy in the testing labs. It’s really quite simple.
I remain very disturbed and saddened.
In these postings I have tried to present what history textbooks call “the primary sources” … but to my mind the interpretation is crystal clear. The 20th century was an all-out fight between Heaven and Hell. There is convincing evidence that some of the leaders of the Anti-God movements of the 20th century had sold their souls to the devil. We were told what to do to defeat them – especially to amend our lives, make sacrifices, pray the Rosary … and we have so far been only partially successful. In particular, we failed to head off the coup of 1960, when the Modernist heretics, just as the earlier popes had feared, succeeded in gaining the upper hand. By a supreme irony, many of them probably believe they are doing the right thing. Naturally they want to prevent the full third secret being disclosed.

I cannot recommend too highly a thorough perusal of Socci’s “the Fourth Secret” and the new, 2009 edition of The Devil’s Final Battle.
 
I cannot recommend too highly a thorough perusal of Socci’s “the Fourth Secret” and the new, 2009 edition of The Devil’s Final Battle.
This is the book that accuses then-Cardinal Ratzinger of trying to “murder” the Fatima message. Pass.
 
This is the book that accuses then-Cardinal Ratzinger of trying to “murder” the Fatima message. Pass.
Other posters have already provided quotes of Cdl Ratzinger showing that, at the very least, he has changed his mind 180 degrees on some of the Fatima message. In particular, Cdl Ratzinger’s “theological interpretation” of Cdl Sodano’s “proposed interpretation” of the vision effectively abandoned the meaning of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and endorsed the attempt to identify the vision with the failed assassination attempt on Pope John Paul II, despite the existence of clear statements by both JPII and Sr Lucy that proved this to be impossible.

Also, Fr Ratzinger of the 1960s was one of the first senior clerics to abandon clerical garb. Now he is re-instating it throughout the Church.

We all need, at different times of our lives, to be allowed to re-think – and to be given credit for it when it is due. The statements and actions of Pope Benedict regarding Fatima are definitely different from what he said and did as Cdl Ratzinger. All these details can be found, fully documented. We would do the Holy Father more of a service by praying that he will obey all of Our Lady’s requests, including the ones he can be seen to have once helped conceal, than in simply denying it because it is unpalatable.
 
Benedict XVI is the Pope, infallible when it comes to speaking faith and morals ex cathedra. He is also a private theologian. Mother’s Day today…let’s ask our Mother for some help.
 
I don’t think the 3rd secret is really that big a mystery. Common sense would surely tell us that it’s all the apostasy that’s occured in the Church since the 1960’s.
 
Today is Mothers Day, a good day to reflect on the Fatima Apparitions of 1917. That is the time of six apparitions from Our Lady Mary, Mother of God , to three children at Fatima Portagul. Our Lady instructed the children with the Message of Fatima.
The message has been revealed by Sr. Lucia. There is no more revelation to be learned from her story. She stayed with us for 90+ years. She wrote books detailing the events.
The Vatican interviewed Sr. Lucia and published " The Message Of Fatima" a book authored by the highest Vatican Officials. There has been many letters and correspondence throught-out the Catholic Church regarding the events at Fatima.
The “World Apostolate of Fatima” has been charged by Rome with the mission of spreading the Fatima Message. www.wafusa.org
Our Lady asked for the conversion of Russia, A ongoing mission that will take time to be accomplished.She asked for the Consecration of Russia, Sr. Lucia stated that IT WAS DONE and accepted by Our Lady. She asked for daily rosarys, She asked for Amendment of Life.“I have come to ask the faithful to amend their lives and ask pardon for their sins.She asked for sacrifices, She asked for devotion to Her “Immaculate Heart”.
She asked for offerings.” Will you offer yourselves to God, and bear with submission all the sufferings He sends you, in reparition fot the sins that offend Him, and for the conversion of sinners?
Instead of following a few disconnected individuals that do nothing to further the Message, but rather to tear down Our Lady’s work , look to the accepted and approved sources before making your conclusions. There has not been one fact, in this long and irrevelant
postings, that has been substantiated.
Forget these attacks on the Pope, His Cardinals, His priests, The Vatican, Sr. Lucia
and lastly Mary Herself.Look at the attackers.
1: A priest suspended from priestly ministrys in 1996.
2: A controversial writer that had been previously denounced by Roberto Fontolan of the
Ecclescial Court of Milan. Not that this writer has shown any disposition to facts.
3: A attorney. We are all aware of the outstanding Reputation for truth that is attributed to
that noble profession.
Fatima , being private revelation, is not required to be accepted. That does not give a person the right to attack the lawful papal authority. Beware of formal schism from the church due to repeatedly attacking your Pope.
 
The Vatican interviewed Sr. Lucia and published " The Message Of Fatima" a book authored by the highest Vatican Officials. There has been many letters and correspondence throught-out the Catholic Church regarding the events at Fatima.
The “World Apostolate of Fatima” has been charged by Rome with the mission of spreading the Fatima Message. www.wafusa.org
This book simply ignores and skirts around each and every one of the perfectly legitimate issues that continue to be raised about the Fatima message. That is a fact that can be ascertained by anybody who reads it. It doesn’t matter who wrote it.
Our Lady asked for the conversion of Russia, An ongoing mission that will take time to be accomplished. She asked for the Consecration of Russia, Sr. Lucia stated that IT WAS DONE and accepted by Our Lady.
Actually, the way this was reported would not stand up for five minutes in any court. Instead of producing the witness, an ‘interested party’ with some power over the witness conducted a private interview and then made a casual statement that the witness happened to agree with him – at the same time, repudiating all she had previously said. She had stated constantly and consistently that the Collegial Consecration has not been done. Houston, we have a problem!
Instead of following a few disconnected individuals that do nothing to further the Message, but rather to tear down Our Lady’s work, look to the accepted and approved sources before making your conclusions. There has not been one fact, in this long and irrevelant postings, that has been substantiated.
On the contrary, each item has been fully documented.
Forget these attacks on the Pope, His Cardinals, His priests, The Vatican, Sr. Lucia
and lastly Mary Herself.Look at the attackers.
1: A priest suspended from priestly ministrys in 1996.
Fr Gruner. If you look at the facts, you will see that the suspension was for no reason – except that he was not following ‘the Party Line’, for reasons which he makes quite clear. This suspension has since been quietly dropped. This is an ancient ploy, that has been used often in history: issue a groundless sanction, then denounce the victim, not because he has done anything, but merely because he has been sanctioned. The Mystical Body of Christ needs to operate at higher standards than these.
2: A controversial writer that had been previously denounced by Roberto Fontolan of the
Ecclescial Court of Milan. Not that this writer has shown any disposition to facts.
Do you refer to Antonio Socci? He is a very highly respected writer and journalist in Italy. He began his investigation with the express aim of refuting the ‘Fatimists’ once and for all. When he actually began to study the evidence, however, he was forced to the conclusion that they were telling the truth – and he was honest enough to say so. It is precisely because of his standing in Italian society that he was taken so seriously.
3: An attorney. We are all aware of the outstanding Reputation for truth that is attributed to that noble profession.
Very weak, if I may say so. Does this mean that we can brush aside each and every statement made by any attorney since the beginning of the world?
You are, as they say in Australian rules football, “playing the man and not the ball”. This is a classic fallacy, that you would find listed in any elementary ‘Clear Thinking’ textbook.

Continued…
 
Continued…

A fourth source you do not seem to have mentioned is Fr Kramer. Note carefully what he says in the introduction to his book ‘The Devil’s Final Battle’:
Our motive in presenting this book is that of loyal sons and daughters of the Church, who know and love the Faith and believe in conscience that that the course still being followed by certain Church leaders is gravely mistaken, as recent events in the Catholic church should make clear to any objective observer.
If a reader thinks we have erred or committed any injustice in what we have written, it would be the reader’s duty to offer us, not invective or empty denunciations, but legitimate correction based upon facts, for our own sake and for the sake of the Church. But if the case we present is well-founded, then the reader has a different obligation to God, himself and his fellow-man, namely: the duty to act upon the evidence we present – now, while there is still time.
Christmas Day 2009
Where does that leave such comments as
a few disconnected individuals that do nothing to further the Message, but rather to tear down Our Lady’s work
?
Fatima, being private revelation, is not required to be accepted.
There was a good posting on this many pages back. I had said that 70,000 witnesses lifted it beyond the realm of Private Revelation. The reply (forgive me, but I haven’t traced it down again …) was that this was not the point. It is still not the deposit of Faith. Fair enough. I accept the point. We are all required, as Catholics, to be prepared to die for any one infallibly-defined tenet of the Faith. The appearance at Fatima does not, at first glance, come into this category. But The Faith does contain innumeraable other things that are not in this category, yet are expected to be part and parcel of the life of the Church. One could include the First Friday devotion, the Rosary itself. Now Pope John Paul II said, ‘The time for doubting Fatima is past’ and he included May 13 as a Feast of the Universal Church in honour of the Apparition, just as Feb 11 is Our Lady of Lourdes. I’m not a theological expert on this, but I think that this ranks it as infallible, because priests are now required to say this Mass and Divine Office: just as a canonisation is infallible, because we are duty bound to pray not for but to the canonised saint - and we cannot be formally bound to a falsehood.
Even apart from this, the entire context of the miracle predicted months in advance, to the very hour and minute, and witnessed by a vast throng who had gathered, in appalling weather, for that very purpose, is strictly unprecedented in the history of the World. Even the Hebrews crossing the Red Sea were going on blind faith, not the promise of a miracle at a stated time. This makes the event of unique gravity. The problem I have with calling it a “Private Revelation” is that there can be two meanings that are confused. In engineering, we could use the word “work” in both the everyday sense and in the specialised sense of Applied Science. Thus, we could say, "No work is being done’ if no mass was being moved through a distance: yet many people might have been ‘working’ very hard to make it happen. In the same way, “Private Revelation” is a loaded term that can smuggle in a lot of baggage, particularly that we are free to ignore it at will. I don’t believe we can ignore Fatima, and I believe, as does the worthy Antonio Socci, that we are under an obligation so seek the truth. Because, if Russia really has not been consecrated, then two things are still up ahead: the assassination of the Holy Father with numerous Religious and lay people, and the annihilation of ‘various’ nations.
That does not give a person the right to attack the lawful papal authority.
That is not being done. I’m glad you used the word ‘lawful’.
Beware of formal schism from the church due to repeatedly attacking your Pope.
You are making the selfsame error as with ‘private revelation’. With your patience, I will make a separate posting on the meaning of ‘schism’. This is not a word to be bandied about at everybody who happens to disagree with a particular statement.
 
Schism
It’s not being picky to respectfully insist on words being used with their real meanings, otherwise there can be no debate at all, but only trading of insults. Let us, therefore, now consider the word “schism”…
It is well to define this word. A schism is not a refusal to obey authority, but a denial that the visible, ostensive authority exists at all.

Let us see what is said on this subject, by Canon Law and the Catholic Encyclopaedia, which I would take to be unimpeachable authorities:–

Canon Law:
“Can. 751
Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith;
apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith;
schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”
Catholic Encyclopaedia:
Schism, therefore, is usually mixed [with heresy], in which case, considered from a moral standpoint, its perversity is chiefly due to the heresy which forms part of it.
In its other aspect and as being purely schism it is contrary to charity and obedience; to [charity], because it severs the ties of fraternal charity, to [obedience], because the schismatic rebels against the Divinely constituted hierarchy.
***However, not every disobedience is a schism; in order to possess this character it must include besides the transgression of the commands of superiors, denial of their Divine right to command". ***
Relating this to the question of the Third Secret of Fatima, notice that no pope has staked his authority on a binding statement
*that the Collegial Consecration of Russia has been achieved, or
*that the vision released in 2000 is of the failed assassination of Pope John Paul II, or
*that there is no “Capovilla envelope” containing 25 lines reporting Our Lady’s words.

On the contrary, Poe Benedict actually sent a letter of appreciation to Antonio Socci for his book ‘The Fourth Secret’, in which he explicitly accuses Cdl Bertone of concealing the whole truth (although he is scrupulous to avoid making any moral judgement on this).

On the other hand, Cdl Bertone’s entirely unconvincing book and TV appearances in which he denounces Socci without actually answering a single one of his points, has been done on his own initiative; the rest of the Vatican, up to and including the pope, have left him to fend for himself. What does this suggest?
 
Just to make sure, you agree that Benedict XVI is the lawful Pope, right?
100%, Mark! But in history it has happened that a pope has been legitimately resisted after making an unlawful command, as e.g. in the case of Bp. Grosseteste. The pope tried to force the bishop to appoint an unworthy favourite to a ‘benefice’ – an ecclesial post with a nice salary. The bishop tried every possible means within the law to prevent this, but the pope persisted and finally backed him completely into a corner. After all ‘normal’ means had been exhausted, Bp G. wrote one last letter on the subject, reviewing the entire case, and then concluding “And therefore, as a loyal son of the Church I contradict, I disobey, I rebel. You cannot take action against me …” The pope, naturally, was beside himself when he received this message – which was nothing if not clear – but his cardinals replied, “My Lord [they didn’t say ‘Your Holiness’ then], he’s right…” The corrupt official was never appointed.

A very extreme case, and thankfully rare, but it illustrates the principle that not every command of a pope, without exception, must be complied with.

When a cleric is ordained, you will notice that he swears “true” obedience to the pope, not “blind, unconditional assent to any command whatsoever”. The Church is wiser than some of her members.
 
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