Is Our Lady of Fatima Still Relevant?

[numealinesimpet]

Yes, we should never approach God with the attitude of doing the least. However, if we find one type of spirituality less fulfilling, there are a multiple others available for us. Also, as we grow, we may find ourselves more edified by different things within Catholicism.

Up to a point … My “Bible-only Christian” friends are sometimes perplexed why the Catholic Church does not simply issue a definitive Interpretation of Holy Scripture – especially since, after all, she claims the right to interpret it. I have pondered this. Notice that clarifications down the centuries have nearly always been denunciations of particular errors …*“Therefore is anyone says that [etc etc] … let him be anathema”. * Why is She so negative? I think that the answer is that she is leaving the option open for further insights, which will be unfolded progressively until the End of Time.

An example is the line from the Canticles of Solomon: *“My dove in the clefts of the rock: and in the hidden places of the wall”… * this phrase is incorporated into the Mass of Our Lady of Lourdes. Surely this was indeed a prophecy of the Lourdes Grotto, yet hidden until ‘the favourable time’.

In the same way: it is, I agree, true that “private revelation” is a kind of legal category that is not dependent on the number of people who witnessed either the alleged vision or the phenomena that accompanied it…

Yet I maintain that the Fatima episode required a new category. It is not acceptable to dismiss the Miracle of the Sun, which was witnessed by more than 70,000 people, and which had the physical effect of drying the ankle-deep mud and making the ground, and the spectators, believers and unbelievers, not only dry but warm – by casually lumping it with the other episodes that the Church has called ‘private revelations’… The actual Fatima message contains very specific, very dire warnings , and with an ultimatum: “If [my requests are not heeded] … the good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated”. This is too portentious to be lightly dismissed as ‘private revelation’; neither, I submit, are we Catholics free to push it out of our minds.

 

[numealinesimpet]

Um…this was my question, that’s all.

I answered it factually. What is the problem?

If you are here looking for trouble then I suggest you move on.

No, I am not interested in making trouble for the sake of it, but in clarifying the record.

You should have stopped at bad mouthing Pope John Paul II.

Well, where I come from “bad mouthing” means “gratuitious insults”. I have reminded readers of the facts of the case. It is not “bad mouthing” Pope Alexander VI to recall that he sang High Mass beautifully, but also had a mistress. I gave personal testimony of one great thing that John Paul II did, which I was delighted to have witnessed. That is not a reason for dismissing his other actions that were less edifying. Do you deny these things, or do you justify them? “The truth will make you free”.

 

[numealinesimpet]

osenorman

Ah! Let me correct you there. Fr Gruner has been meticulous in keeping within the letter of the Law. He is fully legally incardinated with a bishop who has given him specific permission to pursue his apostolate. When he came here to Cork, and the crate was opened with the statue of Our Lady, several present (not including the present writer) smelt a distinct odour of roses. They still speak of this little ‘sign of encouragement’. If you ever go to one of his meetings, you will find that he is very mild-mannered. He even says himself, “I am not an imressive speaker. [He’s not that bad, actually!] Our Lady chose me because she wants her message to come through, with no distractions from my eloquence”. But despite this humble demeanour, he is not one to trifle with, as some of the Big Guns in the Vatican have found out to their cost. He has dedicated his life to Our Lady, and consequently has no human respect, no fear. “My strength is as the strength of ten, because my heart is pure.” For example, a very senior Cardinal tried to pressurise Fr Gruner’s bishop to order him to stay in his diocese – in other words, to abandon his Fatima Apostolate – and Fr Gruner wrote to him reminding him that he was breaking Canon Law by attempting to encroach upon the jurisdiction of a fellow bishop. Fr Gruner then lodged a Canonical complaint about the Cardinal, (which must be reviewed by the pope) and the cardinal was consequently dismissed from his post.

I was one of those present in Cork when the crate was opened, and am very closely acquainted with at least six of those who smelt the roses (I smelt nothing). Fr Gruner’s trials with the Vatican are meticulously documented in “The Devil’s Final Battle” by Fr P. Kramer (cited before in this thread). I endorse what is said about Fr Gruner: he is an un-oratorical speaker (yet on that very count impressive) who insists that Our Lady chose him, an uninspiring speaker, so that it would be her message alone that carried weight.

 

[numealinesimpet]

First, the consecration has been done.

When?

…Third, the pope in the vision is John Paul II.

What is your basis for saying this? What is your comment on Sr Socci’s reply to Cdl Sodano & Bertone?

 

[numealinesimpet]

I believe you’re right as all the proof is copy & paste of the very ones in question.

Very neat, but not so. Antonio Socci had no axe to grind, in fact he was opposed to “the Fatimists” until he actually studied the question (with the explicit aim of refuting them). He found that they were telling the truth. this has been discussed earlier on this thread.

If I’m wrong in siding with the Church & therefore committing a mortal sin, then I’m well on my way to hell.

Beware! “the Church” is not to be equated with each and every act emanating from the Vatican.
There is more to things than subjective mortal sins. As S. Ignatius will tell us in his spiritual Exercises, the devil has traps for all kinds. Some he lures into mortal sins. Others, whom he knows will never commit murder, adultery, avarice, etc, he sidelines. Make sure you are not being sidelined when we should all be praying for the Pope to have the Grace to carry out, with all the bishops of the world, the Collegial Consecration of Russia, as mandated by our Lady so many decades ago.

 

[beehumble]

I said “First, the consecration has been done.” Here are the three reasons:

First, the only living Fatima visionary at the time of the consecration was Sr. Lucia, and she herself said it was valid, when she said in 1989:

“God accepted the consecration of March 25, 1984 as the one that fulfilled all the conditions for the conversion of Russia…The Pope was united to all the bishops in 1984. Those who did not want to be united with the Holy Father, the responsibility is theirs. The request for the Consecration was always an appeal to union. The Mystical Body of Christ (the Church) must be united! The members of the same Body are united!

His Excellency, the Bishop of Leiria, (Bishop Alberto Amaral) was here. He asked me and I told him, ‘Yes. Now it was made.’

The Apostolic Nuncio (of Lisbon) [the representative of the Vatican] has been here recently and asked me, ‘Is Russia now consecrated?’ ‘Yes. Now it is,’ I answered. The Nuncio then said, ‘Now we wait for the miracle.’

I answered, ‘God will keep His word!’

As Editor of the Fatima Family Messenger I [Father Robert J. Fox] was told in 1989: “Lucia wants the message to get out to the world that the Collegial Consecration of Russia has taken place.”

When Sister Lucia was told that not every Catholic bishop in the world joined in the 1984 consecration, **Sister Lucia replied,
**
“It is true not every Catholic bishop responded to the Pope’s request. That is their personal responsibility. But it was done right in 1984 and Our Lord has accepted the Collegial Consecration.”

Sister Lucia has explained that an exact numerical number of 100% of the bishops was not required but the fact that most did join the Pope made for a moral totality.

So according to Sr. Lucia herself, the visionary who had many personal, intimate conversations with both Our Lord and Our Lady at various times throughout her life, the consecration first mentioned at Fatima in 1917 has been enacted.

**Second, the Vatican also said it was validly enacted. **

Third, history says it is valid. Here is a list of events concerning Russia since the consecration of March 1984 as listed in a timeline found on EWTN’s website, and with other significant events also added:
The consecration was of Russia to Blessed Mary’s Immaculate Heart, and a review of events related to Russia and its allies (the USSR) since March of 1984 reveals that it has been done,.

Mar. 25, 1984 Pope John Paul II, “united with all the pastors of the Church in a particular bond whereby we constitute a body and a college,” performs the consecration. Sr. Lucia tells the papal nuncio to Portugal that the Consecration is fulfilled.

May 13, 1984 On the anniversary of Fatima, one of the largest crowds in Fatima history gathers at the shrine to pray the Rosary for peace.

May 13, 1984 On the anniversary of Fatima, an explosion at the Soviets’ Severomorsk Naval Base destroys two-thirds of all the missiles stockpiled for the Soviets’ Northern Fleet. The blast also destroys workshops needed to maintain the missiles as well as hundreds of scientists and technicians. Western military experts called it the worst naval disaster the Soviet Navy has suffered since WWII.

Dec. 1984 Soviet Defense Minister, mastermind of the invasion plans for Western Europe, suddenly and mysteriously dies.

Mar. 10, 1985 Soviet Chairman Konstantin Chernenko dies

Mar. 11, 1985 Soviet Chairman Mikhail Gorbachev elected

April 26, 1986 Chernobyl nuclear reactor accident

Dec. 8, 1987 Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (INF) to remove/reduce short range nuclear
missiles from Europe and elsewhere

May 12, 1988 An explosion wrecked the only factory that made the rocket motors for the Soviets’ deadly SS 24 long-range missiles, which carry ten nuclear bombs each.

Aug. 29, 1989 Sr. Lucia affirms in correspondence that the consecration “has been accomplished” and that “God will keep His word.”

Nov. 9, 1989 Fall of the Berlin Wall

Nov-Dec 1989 Peaceful revolutions in Communist Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria and Albania

1990 East and West Germany are unified

Dec. 8, 1991 On the Feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the presidents of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus met in Belovezh Forest, near Brest, Belarus, and declared the end of the Soviet Union, and founded the Commonwealth of Independent States, in what became known as the Belavezha Accords.
Dec. 25, 1991 Dissolution of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, with the Soviet hammer and sickle flag being lowered from the Kremlin for the last time, fittingly, on Christmas Day in the West.

The information on Sr. Lucia’s replies comes from the book by Father Antonio Maria Martins, S.J., called Documents on Fatima & the Memoirs of Sister Lucia. It is the most complete work on Fatima and can be found here if anyone is interested: fatimafamily.org/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_2&products_id=42

 

[beehumble]

I said "Third, the pope in the vision is John Paul II. "

Again, Sr. Lucia herself said so. She is the one who had the vision. While things of God are often layered, or ‘packed’, on the first layer it is JPII by the testimony of the visionary.

 

[beehumble]

Remember, Sister Lucia said
“He who is not with the Pope is not with God, and he that wants to be with God, has to be with the Pope.”

And all bets are on that when Jesus told St. Faustina, “From her (Poland) will come forth the spark that will prepare the world for My final coming.” He was referring to the one who canonized her, JPII. If true, it means Jesus Himself spoke of the important role of JPII for these times. So I myself could not bash him, for any reason.

If one wants to know the truth about Fatima, then do what Our Lady says, namely,pray the daily rosary, and fast on bread and water Wednesday and Friday like in times of the early Church. Do this and one will have answers.

 

[beehumble]

God is with the pope. The Holy Spirit guides His Church. We must remember that throughout time there has been one given to us by God who will know His truth. How can we walk in Truth unless it is given to us? This person in ancient Israel was the one minister of the group of twelve ministers who held the keys as a mark of his authority to speak on behalf of God. These keys were handed down.

When Jesus gave Peter the “keys”, being Jewish, they all knew what that signified. It wasn’t lost on them that they were a group of 12, and that one had “keys” handed to him from the Christ.

The pope is the one minister who holds the keys, who has the Truth of God when it comes to matters of dogma. That is where the doctrine of infallibility comes from.

One should remember that, before they go off on a tirade bashing the pope. He holds the keys to Truth, the keys to everlasting life, on behalf of God Who right now reigns in Heaven through his pope present on earth.

To ‘throw one’s pope under the bus’ to win some argument on behalf of a priest who might or might not have had his faculties impaired because of disobedience, might not be the wisest of sides to choose.

To believe the line of the argument, one must assume Sister Lucia lied, many of the Popes of the twentieth lied, the current Pope is a liar, and those high up in the Church lied for the past hundred years, and only a certain ‘faculty-impaired’ priest knows the truth.

We are in the end times. Jesus chose Judas as one of His “priests”, and His chosen one betrayed Him, and then the Body of Christ underwent the passion. Right now, the mystical Body of Christ is suffering betrayal by its chosen priests, too, and because the end is near, it is not surprising (sad and abhorrent and disgusting as it is) - the Catechism says the Church, being the Body of Christ will follow the Lord in His Passion before the end.

I’m just saying.

 

[beehumble]

As i said earlier:
The vision is still relevant, and there does not have to be words associated with the third part’s vision. It stands alone. It is a summary of all that Blessed Mary said. It is a vision of all that happened before the period of peace, including the assassination attempt on the pope, and the period of peace,too. The great city half in ruins is the City of God (as in St. Augustine’s City of God book) - the community of people throughout the world who worship and love God. The persecutions of atheistic Russia (the nation mentioned and associated with Fatima) brought about great destruction against the “city of God” - as did World War II, Stalin, Mao, etc. Millions of Christians were murdered by communist (atheist) regimes. The commentary released in 2000 addressed this.

I don’t really understand why people are making so much fuss and feel they need words to go with the third secret vision. It stands on its own.

There is a little (or a lot) of the absurd going on around here. First, Lucia said it has been done, and there were no words to the 3rd secret… So to try to refute that they go so far as to invent a second Lucia, or say she was confined or something, when she herself was not and says she was not. Didn’t Mel Gibson meet her and the other sisters at the convent and screen for them the Passion of the Christ?

I mean, people are making the leaders of our Church out to be the KGB or the Gestapo. Absurd. If one really feels that way, they should pack their bags and leave the Church.

Where is the trust in God? If He is with the Church (and He is) then why doubt?

I’m just saying.

 

[elts1956]

I am a new believer in Our Lady of Fatima. I remember watching a film about Fatima when I was a child at school; but I forgot about the apparition shortly afterwards and never really thought about it again. Recently, thanks to CAF, I rediscovered Our Lady of Fatima and I have become a believer. I’ve ready many websites, including The Fatima Network of Father Nicholas Gruner. I am aware that Fr. Gruner is not a priest in good standing with the Catholic Church, but I find his interpretation of the Fatima message interesting. He believes the Fatima message remains relevant to our times, but others seem to think that the time of Fatima passed with the end of the Cold War and the fall of Soviet Russia. Father Gruner does not believe the Consecration of Russia has been performed, but the Church maintains that this was done by Pope John Paul II in 1984.

My question: Is Fatima still relevant to our time? Or has the time of Fatima passed?

I have also noticed that traditional Catholics seem to be the main proponents of Our Lady of Fatima; they seem to be the ones who really believe in the importance of this message. Why is this?

Please Note: I am aware that there are many conspiracy theories surrounding Fatima. I have no problems discussing these, but please do not see this as an opportunity to slander Vatican II or the Ordinary Form of the Mass. I mention this because I have come across traditionalists who insist Fatima is opposed to Vatican II, and this leads them to be uncharitable in their words. I am really interested in this topic and I would love to have a friendly, polite discussion about all of the elements of the Fatima apparitions. Thanks.

Go to this website americaneedsfatima.org/ Yes, we need Fatima today. We need to be reminded of what our Lady said: That unless we do reparation to the Sacred Heart, the teachings of communism will spread. Russia has not been defeated. Her teachings are alive and evil here in the US. Abortion, euthanasia, forced health care, confusion within the ranks of the Catholic clergy, ad nauseum.