Is Our Universe Infinite?

[teresa63]

Pretty much. Since what we observe is a constantly expanding universe (Don’t know if thats 100% true or not), if its expanding that means that space as the 3rd dimension is getting bigger the bigger the time passed.
So a God who is infinite in time, and the creator of time itself, can create an infinite in size universe if he so wills. I don’t see why he couldn’t. Its not a logical imposibility like a square circle , so I think its fine.

Neither the Bible nor Catholicism is wrong.

The eternal, incarnate Word of God—Jesus Christ—through whom all things were made (cf. John 1) said:

Heaven and earth shall pass away…(Mt 24:35).

When Jesus returns on the last day, this universe will end —whether expanding or not.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

Yeah, but that does not exclude the universe being infinite for the time being. God can end it in any way he wants, but right now we can see it as infinitiely expanding from a single point into eternity

 

[teresa63]

You say the Universe is finite. Do you have a source for that, written after mine?

Yes, the source is (as cited above) Jesus Christ.

 

[teresa63]

Yeah, but that does not exclude the universe being infinite for the time being. God can end it in any way he wants, but right now we can see it as infinitiely expanding from a single point into eternity

Right now, we can see it expanding but there’s no indication that its expansion is “infinite.”

 

[DetectiveNiko]

I didn’t imply so. I said it could be, but we just don’t know, nor will we ever know as we cant observe the whole universe. In the end it really does not matter as it does not contradict the Bible or catholicism.
Guess my wording is poor , sorry.

 

[Hope1960]

I mean from astronomers.

 

[JimG]

When we refer to God as infinite, it does not mean infinite in space or time, because God has no extension in space or time. He is pure infinite spirit with no temporal or spatial extension.

Material things and mathematical objects can be referred to as infinite in a different sense: having no spatial ending boundary or temporal boundary.

As to whether the universe is infinite in spatial extension: it depends on whehter the universe is spatially curved or flat. A curved space could close in on itself like the surface of a sphere. A flat universe could be infinite in extension.

 

[Hope1960]

DetectiveNiko, did you read my link, particularly the last paragraph? It says “this suggests that the universe is infinite in extent…” doesn’t that say the Universe is infinite in size?

 

[teresa63]

I mean from astronomers.

Astronomers, being scientists, utilize the scientific method (including observation) to analyze the material, physical universe.
Non-material realities and qualities (like infinity) cannot be measured/analyzed using scientific methods.
Only the Creator can reveal these supernatural realities to us mortals.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

“This suggests that the universe is infinite in extent; however, since the universe has a finite age, we can only observe a finite volume of the universe,” NASA says on their website. “All we can truly conclude is that the universe is much larger than the volume we can directly observe.” ← Theese are the last lines and this is exactly what I was saying. We can’t observe something that is infinite, its definently bigger than what we can currently see, but as you can see " since the universe has a finite age " It is still dependant of the time factor. And lets be honest, even if it wasn’t I still dont see why it couldn’t be infinite in size.

 

[Hope1960]

So, am I correct in saying that even NASA doesn’t know if the Universe is infinite in size, but IF it is, it doesn’t contradict the Bible or Catholicism?

JimG do you agree?

 

[teresa63]

As to whether the universe is infinite in spatial extension: it depends on whehter the universe is spatially curved or flat. A curved space could close in on itself like the surface of a sphere. A flat universe could be infinite in extension.

The word “infinite” implies both—no beginning and no end. If we believe in God as Creator, then we also know that the created universe had a definite beginning.

Even if the universe began with a “Big Bang” it still had that beginning.

 

[petra22]

infinite in size.

Doesn’t infinite still mean no beginning and no end? If it started from a big bang then it started in a place and proceeds out to outer space… the beginning would still have a starting place… say the sun in our galaxy…? also it can’t keep expanding unless there is room to expand, so what do you mean infinite? I don’t see how you -or they- could call it infinite…?

 

[Hope1960]

No one here is disputing that. What we are suggesting is that the size might be infinite.

 

[Hope1960]

I don’t know, but if you read my link, that’s what it says, I think.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

Theres 2 types of infinity. We have +infinity and -infinity. No beginning entails in a way -infinity. We dont observe that anywhere in our universe neither is it logically possible, unless its outside of time and space, since everything has a cause. (Besides God of course )
For example : The money in my wallet can keep growing forever if I dont spend it on anything, but that does not mean it had no beginning. Of course it had a beginning : When I bought the wallet / when the wallet was made.

 

[niceatheist]

Yeah, but that does not exclude the universe being infinite for the time being. God can end it in any way he wants, but right now we can see it as infinitiely expanding from a single point into eternity

You need to be very cautious with terminology and the conception of Big Bang Cosmology. The Big Bang model basically states “the observable universe was once very hot and very dense, and the began to expand”.

Does this mean the entire universe came from a single point? Well, maybe not. First of all when we look at the statement above, we have to look at the term “observable”. We can extrapolate that the parts of the universe we cannot observe, because of the horizon problem, behave like the parts we can see, but unfortunately it will take billions of years worth of observation to determine if that is the case.

In general, the “single point” is more a product of the break down of our current physical equations break down when you down below the Planck distance and Planck time. In other words, the “point” is a singularity, where the math starts becoming gibberish. So that’s always a sign of a big hole in our knowledge.

There are theories, admittedly long from being confirmed or falsified, that would suggest our universe is a “bubble” in a much larger metaverse, so even if our universe has a finite beginning, that’s not to say that existence, if you define that as everything that is (all the universes), could not ultimately be infinite as well.

Even if you don’t buy into brane theory (and I certainly have my issues with it), it’s also possible that the Universe may be cyclical, periods of expansion, terminating in a “big crunch” where everything gets super hot and super dense again. A lot depends on what the cosmological constant ultimately is, but it should also be noted that we appear to be living through another inflationary epoch, with the expansion speeding up, which invokes the dark energy (which was responsible for the inflationary phase early in the Universe’s history), so maybe the end of the Universe is really just going to be the hypothesized “heat death” where in the end every structure in the universe dissolves into a fog of subatomic particles at nearly maximum entropy.

 

[petra22]

The money in my wallet can keep growing forever

Then your money is not infinite if it can keep growing forever… it has to have room to grow and the room would be empty until you try to fill it up… so it has an end… until you add more and then it has a new end…

 

[teresa63]

No one here is disputing that. What we are suggesting is that the size might be infinite.

Only God is truly “infinite” because everything in existence He created. Everything that has/had/will have existence is “finite” because it had a starting point. God is the eternal Uncreated Creator of all things, seen and unseen.

 

[JimG]

So, am I correct in saying that even NASA doesn’t know if the Universe is infinite in size, but IF it is, it doesn’t contradict the Bible or Catholicism?

JimG do you agree?

I agree, a determination about the size of the universe as being either finite or infinite would not contradict Catholic theology.

I would note than when we speak of an expanding universe, it is the space which is expanding. The universe does not need space to expand into. An expanding universe means that space itself is expanding.