Is Pope Francis reaching out to the prodigals and are some of us feeling like the older brother?

[McCall1981]

Can you give a real concrete example of how pope Francis has not shown the “older brothers love”

It seems this is all projections and insecurities based on not much evidence.

Well, I’m not sure exactly what I can say on the boards in regards to critisizing etc, so I’ll try to step lightly, but in my opinion examples would be:

• using phrases like “Pelagians”, “right-wingers”, “restorationists”, referring to the NO mass as “liberated”, dismissing the Rosary bouquet, etc
• he has publically affirmed Summorum Pontificum, but everytime he has mentioned the TLM he has followed up with a warning that it not be ideologized, which I agree with, but for instance when he mentions homosexuality, or atheism he does not follow up with a warning that it is wrong.

I don’t think I should go any further on the boards, but these are the kinds of things I’m referring to. They are, admittedly, all subjective, but these are the kinds of things that have made me feel this way.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Well, I’m not sure exactly what I can say on the boards in regards to critisizing etc, so I’ll try to step lightly, but in my opinion examples would be:

• using phrases like “Pelagians”, “right-wingers”, “restorationists”, referring to the NO mass as “liberated”, dismissing the Rosary bouquet, etc
• he has publically affirmed Summorum Pontificum, but everytime he has mentioned the TLM he has followed up with a warning that it not be ideologized, which I agree with, but for instance when he mentions homosexuality, or atheism he does not follow up with a warning that it is wrong.

I don’t think I should go any further on the boards, but these are the kinds of things I’m referring to. They are, admittedly, all subjective, but these are the kinds of things that have made me feel this way.

Thanks for sharing.

I think it is important to realize its subjective.

I also think it stems from an insecurity that needs to be worked through.

Peace !

 

[McCall1981]

Thanks for sharing.

I think it is important to realize its subjective.

I also think it stems from an insecurity that needs to be worked through.

Peace !

Nevermind, I deleted my post, don’t think I can answer without breaking any rules, so I’ll just leave it at that.

 

[Randy_Carson]

So St Paul got it wrong in Phillipians (I think somewhere in chapter 4) where he advises the Phillipians to fill their minds with only pure thoughts. Anger, bitterness, resentment, etc. manifest themselves in thoughts (and actions).

And these are not just emotions, they have clearly manifested themselves as thoughts, words, and keystrokes, otherwise we would not be aware that people are feeling this way. These are not just mere physiological reactions, these feelings are being manifested in the thoughts, words and deeds of certain Catholics.

You reckon Paul would have advised the Phillipians that it would be OK for them to have in their minds, thoughts of resentment towards Peter? You reckon he would have been OK if the early Christians verbalised these thoughts through words and actions? You reckon he would have been OK for the early Christians to write such things down and publish them for millions of people to see (which is what is happening online)?

Anger? Bitterness? Resentment?

Really?

:nope:

I think what most if not all in this thread have said is that a few words spoken off the cuff by the pope can undo a lifetime of work by those who have worked in areas that are now being heavily downplayed…demphasized…by Francis.

The excellent Dolan/Barron interview on YouTube featured a reporter asking Dolan if he would be backing off on the homosexual issue. He said, “No”, of course, but why would the reporter have even asked the question?

Because of what they perceived Francis to have said.

Words must be chosen with care when the entire world is listening.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Until you guys realize that proclaiming God’s truth is not about you it’s about calling to repentance.

Who are “you guys?” Who doesn’t understand the call to repentance? These are simply baseless accusations on your part. You’re certainly not referring to any of my posts on this thread.

It’s not about jamming pro life and pro family agendas at them

Who suggested “jamming?” (Wait: No one.)

It’s about SHOWING them who Christ is

It is about making disciples.

No one has said otherwise. Just one more straw man on this thread, among dozens of self-erected straw men already.

 

[Brendan_64]

Anger? Bitterness? Resentment?

Really?

It’s not me who has made that claim, but a previous poster who said that it was understandable that some Catholics are feeling bitterness and resentment. I was simply replying to that remark.

But reading a lot of what appears to have been written on line would suggest that some Catholics are feeling bitterness and resentful about how the Holy Father is currently expressing things.

Words must be chosen with care when the entire world is listening.

Is that your advice to the Holy Father? Do you not think that he already knows that? Do you not think that perhaps he knows exactly what the reaction to his words will be, yet he chooses to say them?

Perhaps Pope Francis IS choosing his words with care? Perhaps he knows exactly what he is doing?

Maybe some people who don’t quite like his message, or the tone of his message, prefer to think, “The Pope doesn’t really realise what the reaction to his words will be, so his words need qualified”?

 

[clem456]

Since we are talking about Luke 15: 11-32

The Father’s love is gratuitous and unconcerned with the consequences of loving gratuitously. He is not afraid to look foolish or to be misunderstood. To continue loving the son who rejected him goes against human wisdom. To welcome him back does not make sense. To our way of thinking, this son hasn’t earned it. He needs to be told “you’re not my son until…(pick your dogma)”.

That’s not how the Father operates, not who he is. He never tells anyone, no matter how far they stray, “you are not my son anymore”. Not in his vocabulary. He welcomes back the lost without question and without regard for consequences and misunderstandings. The neighbors might laugh at him. Someone might see his love and take advantage of it saying “look I can wander off and still come back later”. Those things don’t matter to the Father, because they are dust compared to his love.

The elder son refuses to participate in the joy of his father. Resentment, Envy. Trying to keep what he thinks belongs to him. Because his lost brother has squandered his inheritance, the older doesn’t want him grabbing his own. What the father is trying to tell him is, “my inheritance is limitless, you needn’t worry”.
The elder brother truly, can not understand, he believes that love is limited to those who faithfully followed the rules. His Father might as well be speaking a different language.

The elder brother is every bit as lost as the younger brother, and maybe more so, because life has not crushed his self righteousness. .He would rather cling to it, than give it up and joyfully participate in the banquet.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Who are “you guys?” Who doesn’t understand the call to repentance? These are simply baseless accusations on your part. You’re certainly not referring to any of my posts on this thread.

Who suggested “jamming?” (Wait: No one.)

No one has said otherwise. Just one more straw man on this thread, among dozens of self-erected straw men already.

If that’s how you feel I’m happy you have nothing to complain about!

 

[McCall1981]

It’s not me who has made that claim, but a previous poster who said that it was understandable that some Catholics are feeling bitterness and resentment. I was simply replying to that remark.

But reading a lot of what appears to have been written on line would suggest that some Catholics are feeling bitterness and resentful about how the Holy Father is currently expressing things.

** Is that your advice to the Holy Father? Do you not think that he already knows that? Do you not think that perhaps he knows exactly what the reaction to his words will be, yet he chooses to say them?

Perhaps Pope Francis IS choosing his words with care? Perhaps he knows exactly** what he is doing?

Maybe some people who don’t quite like his message, or the tone of his message, prefer to think, “The Pope doesn’t really realise what the reaction to his words will be, so his words need qualified”?

We know this isn’t the case though. The message the world is receiving is “abortion, homosexuality and contraception are no big deal. No rules anymore, yay!” I give Francis the benefit of the doubt that this is NOT the message he’s trying to send.

The message being communicated is heterodox, so either a) he is purposely communicating heterodoxy and the world understands him correctly (which I don’t think anyone here thinks is the case), or b) he is trying to communicate an orthodox message and is being misinterpreted.

 

[Jon_S_1]

We know this isn’t the case though. The message the world is receiving is “abortion, homosexuality and contraception are no big deal. No rules anymore, yay!” I give Francis the benefit of the doubt that this is NOT the message he’s trying to send.

The message being communicated is heterodox, so either a) he is purposely communicating heterodoxy and the world understands him correctly (which I don’t think anyone thinks is the case), or b) he is trying to communicate an orthodox message and is being misinterpreted.

I have not seen any evidence of this beyond the first day sensational headlines. Further I have several gay friends I talked to who did not hear that. I also have a pro choice friend who wrote how much she liked the new pope even though she knows full well no teaching has changed.

Since we are talking straw men

I think the only straw man is the “supposed reaction of the secular world”

Where is the headline “pope says moral free for all”

Or

Pope says have abortions and engage in homosexuality"

They aren’t there because people rant hearing that.

As for the question by the reporter in the interview with Cardinal Dolan, they ask that because they want it to happen it’s their agenda.

I would point out that they asked the same question after he was elected before he said a word.

 

[clem456]

The message being communicated is heterodox, so either a) he is purposely communicating heterodoxy and the world understands him correctly (which I don’t think anyone here thinks is the case), or b) he is trying to communicate an orthodox message and is being misinterpreted.

or

c) he has such trust in the message that misinterpretation is not a concern to him.

Now that would be a radical Christian idea!

 

[kmcarl56]

Before I begin this little piece for reflection, I just want to say that our Moderators have already made it clear that we shouldn’t presume to judge the Pope:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=764882

I wouldn’t be surprised if some recent threads got shut down . . . but that’s not for me to decide, 'nuff said. Now for my “pearls of wisdom,” for whatever they’re worth. :twocents:

I’m a morally “conservative” cradle Catholic. I have the reaction too sometimes - "The Pope said what?!" Although I’m learning to 1) fall back on the good catechesis I received as a child and continued from that time to the present, and 2) go to sources that are Catholic, not secular, for any further clarification I desire.

But here’s the thing - sometimes I have this fear. And if I look at it closely, I see myself, being a very good imitation of the older brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son. Sometimes I fear the rules won’t be enforced enough, won’t be enforced for someone else, etc. - when I have followed them all my life (mostly) and fought for them and helped explain them to people and all these efforts I’ve made.

And it is my realization, perhaps our Holy Father is like that father in the story Jesus told. He’s out there on the road, looking for ways to reach those prodigal sons and daughters. Am I going to feel all put out and envious and afraid? Or am I going to join in the celebration?

It’s a spiritual test for me. Maybe it is for a lot of us. In my heart of hearts, I don’t think we need to be so fearful. Easier said than done, maybe, but doable. :curtsey:

My goodness! I would think that you would be rejoicing that another soul has come to Christ and become another of your many brothers and sisters across the world! Why would you be envious or afraid at all? Another soul coming to the Lord does not put your salvation in jeapordy; instead it confirms it because you are among the chosen.

Do you think that there is only a limited number of Catholics who are going to be admitted into Heaven? I certainly hope not. Be joyful in the success of the Pope to reach people’s hearts, souls, and minds and to draw them into the brotherhood of Christianity. I am ecstatic when I hear of another soul being save through Christ! The more the merrier, I say!
:extrahappy:

 

[Brendan_64]

The message being communicated is heterodox.

No it is not!

Some people will always misinterpret messages, and some will always try to twist messages to suit there own agenda.

But the generally understood message is not that the Church supports gay marriage, homosexual acts or abortion etc. The generally understood message is one of a more welcoming Church, one where homosexuals are welcome (as are all people) and an image of a Church that is less condemnatory and more welcoming. I think that the general understanding of the Pope’s message and the general reaction to it is exactly what Pope Francis wanted.

You don’t encourage people to walk towards the light by waving a fist and yelling at them that they’re all going to burn in Hell for their sins.

 

[McCall1981]

I have not seen any evidence of this beyond the first day sensational headlines. Further I have several gay friends I talked to who did not hear that. I also have a pro choice friend who wrote how much she liked the new pope even though she knows full well no teaching has changed.

Since we are talking straw men

I think the only straw man is the “supposed reaction of the secular world”

Where is the headline “pope says moral free for all”

Or

Pope says have abortions and engage in homosexuality"

They aren’t there because people rant hearing that.

As for the question by the reporter in the interview with Cardinal Dolan, they ask that because they want it to happen it’s their agenda.

I would point out that they asked the same question after he was elected before he said a word.

After the “Who am I to judge” comment there were headlines literally saying “Pope says gay is ok”

I have also seen many articles etc that have said things like Francis is changing the Church’s “policy” or “stance” on homosexuality, and abortion.

No it is not!

Some people will always misinterpret messages, and some will always try to twist messages to suit there own agenda.

But the generally understood message is not that the Church supports gay marriage, homosexual acts or abortion etc. The generally understood message is one of a more welcoming Church, one where homosexuals are welcome (as are all people) and an image of a Church that is less condemnatory and more welcoming. I think that the general understanding of the Pope’s message and the general reaction to it is exactly what Pope Francis wanted.

You don’t encourage people to walk towards the light by waving a fist and yelling at them that they’re all going to burn in Hell for their sins.

I think this is exactly what the generally understood message is, as far as the general population goes.

I guess we just disagree.

 

[Jon_S_1]

After the “Who am I to judge” comment there were headlines literally saying “Pope says gay is ok”

I have also seen many articles etc that have said things like Francis is changing the Church’s “policy” or “stance” on homosexuality, and abortion.

I think this is exactly what the generally understood message is, as far as the general population goes.

I guess we just disagree.

It doesnt seem sad to you that you think this and argue this?

Based on what surveys?

Based on what?

A few headlines!?

How many retractions and clarifying articles have been printed (a lot).

You give the media too much power.

The power you give them detracts from the message that was sent and that countless received.

I would argue, even if the masses received it the way you describe, its ok, since literally millions are tuned in and paying attention to the church. Of these millions lets say 90% turn away in disgust when they realize nothing doctirnally has changed. Thats ok they were there already.

But the 10%…The hundreds of thousands that tune in and study and listen and find the true teaching of the church and Christ.

Lets Rejoice for that!!!

 

[McCall1981]

It doesnt seem sad to you that you think this and argue this?

Based on what surveys?

Based on what?

A few headlines!?

How many retractions and clarifying articles have been printed (a lot).

You give the media too much power.

The power you give them detracts from the message that was sent and that countless received.

I would argue, even if the masses received it the way you describe, its ok, since literally millions are tuned in and paying attention to the church. Of these millions lets say 90% turn away in disgust when they realize nothing doctirnally has changed. Thats ok they were there already.

But the 10%…The hundreds of thousands that tune in and study and listen and find the true teaching of the church and Christ.

Lets Rejoice for that!!!

You’re right, I’m basing my opinion on my personal experience and understanding, so are you, so is everyone else. None of us have surveys or proof or anything else. It’s fine if we just disagree.

 

[clem456]

You’re right, I’m basing my opinion on my personal experience and understanding, so are you, so is everyone else. None of us have surveys or proof or anything else. It’s fine if we just disagree.

But maybe we can agree that a good default is to simply trust the Church and the Pope and be at peace.

Whew…

 

[Jon_S_1]

:thumbsup:

But maybe we can agree that a good default is to simply trust the Church and the Pope and be at peace.

Whew…

 

[Jon_S_1]

This is a good article to help alleviate some concerns. Pay attention to the last two paragraphs.

ncregister.com/daily-news/pope-francis-first-six-months/

Couple this with the Australian Excommunication, the Anti Abortion Comments on the 20th, and the warning to Pelosi, and he appears very conservative. Which also coupled with his history in Argentina, we know he is.

 

[McCall1981]

This is a good article to help alleviate some concerns. Pay attention to the last two paragraphs.

ncregister.com/daily-news/pope-francis-first-six-months/

Couple this with the Australian Excommunication, the Anti Abortion Comments on the 20th, and the warning to Pelosi, and he appears very conservative. Which also coupled with his history in Argentina, we know he is.

I wonder if Card Burke’s comments about Pelosi were “approved” in some sense by Francis?

I remember reading that he had supported keeping pre-abortion politians from communion in Argentina, but I don’t really know.