J
Jon_S_1
Guest
I think we can safely call them approved unless Pope Francis says otherwise.
Is Pope Francis reaching out to the prodigals and are some of us feeling like the older brother?
- Status
S
Starrsmother
Guest
I think maybe you should have started a new thread, hon–because I just happened to see your post as I was already following the thread. A lot of folks won’t even see it unless they are on this particular thread. To answer your question, Jehova’s Witnesses are a very hard-core and strange religion–almost, in my opinion, a cult. They usually believe that the Catholic church is an abomination (really bad) and that only Jehova’s Witnesses will get to heaven. They believe other weird things, like that when a person dies–they are totally dead and gone–and if they were good that God will raise their soul on the Last Day–if not, they are just gone–poof! They also don’t believe in blood transfusions–even to save a person’s life. The list of odd, “freaky” things that Jehova’s Witnesses believe are truths goes on and on–you can google it and you’ll get a good idea of what I mean.
The problem isn’t you–and it really isn’t your friend, Preston either. The problem is your friend’s parents who probably only want and will only permit him to be friends with other Jehova’s Witnesses. You can and should personally be nice to your friend at school—but if his parents object to him having friends of other faiths, you may as well give up on any really deep friendship–his parents will not let it happen. As you noted, he said his folks and he moved once over just such an attempt. I’d be nice to this poor kid and pray for him as he has a tough life—and if you were older–in high school for instance, I might give you slightly different advice. But for now, find a new friend and don’t worry–be happy you weren’t raised in your friend’s church!
E
Elizabeth502
Guest
Raise your hand, posters, if you feel “jealous” and “self-righteous” when others experience conversion.
The entire premise of this thread, while occasionally an interesting question for either Spirituality or Sacred Scripture, is off-topic from Pope Francis’ interview.
As the poster Corki said on another thread, much of the interview, particularly the so-called approach to the Gospels, had to do with advice given to priests when preparing homilies..
It really helps a conversation when people take the time to read content, rather than inadvertently falling into the trap of responding instead to distorted, inaccurate, and lurid headlines.
Question:
Is Pope Francis reaching out to the prodigals and are some of us feeling like the older brother?
Answer: No.
S
severus68
Guest
Pope Francis is preaching the Gospel. What you are saying of him is very disrespectful to say the least. You are endorsing it by repeating it here.
Most Catholics have enough to worry about and do not spend any time dissectng the words of the Pope.
S
Starrsmother
Guest
I respectfully disagree. Dissecting the Pope’s message is a normal thing–it’s unreasonable to think Catholics won’t do so. If anyone–on this forum or any place else, tries to censor such–normal Catholic people will simply find another way to discuss such things and their next choice may not be as good as simply talking about it on a Catholic forum.
I can see why some, who have been in the forefront of the fights on abortion and gay marriage for instance, might feel a little taken aback by what they think Pope Francis implied. The truth though is that each of us should maybe do two things–and I’m not very good at doing either myself so I’m directing this at my own self as much as anyone else.
Firstly, let’s give Pope Francis an opportunity to show us what he really means. Just because the secular press is having a hey-day at what feels like our expense–doesn’t make what the pope said wrong. If his kinder, more people friendly approach were to bring about more people even considering the Catholic church, looking into it, or heaven forbid if he could somehow re-unite even one sect that has broken away–the eastern church for instance—wouldn’t that be good? Wouldn’t we all be thrilled?
Secondly, we all–and again, this includes me–need to remember that if the only reason we prayed in front of abortion clinics, stood up against gay marriage and such was to get an “Atta-boy” from the church or the pope, we were doing so for all the wrong reasons. We are NOT being asked to be less brave, less in the fore-front with our beliefs than before. We are being asked to be “nicer”–not speaking down to people–but instead to lead by example as well as speech. What did Jesus say? “They will know that you are my followers by your love for one another.” He also told us to"Judge not–that ye be not judged." We all–myself included—need to examine ourselves a little and decide if we have done any one thing recently of a positive nature, that would make even one, single non-Catholic person say: “Oh that person must be a Catholic”—and not shake their head in disgust if they did say so immediately afterwards!
C
clem456
Guest
I’m sorry you took my comments personally. The were not aimed at you specifically or anyone else specifically for that matter. I was simply commenting on the Gospel passage referred to in the thread title.Raise your hand, posters, if you feel “jealous” and “self-righteous” when others experience conversion.
For simplicity I’ll just post the words of the Gospel that address the older brother and they can speak for themselves.
S
severus68
Guest
W
webmiesterph
Guest
Hi guys,
I would like to comment on the original topic of the thread.
My mother used to tell us how bad she felt that God seemed unfair. In the prodigal son for instance, the father gave the prodigal son a big celebration and the other son nothing. In the parable involving workers in the field, the workers who worked longer still got the same wage as the workers who worked for a short while. It seems so unfair.
Well, my insights is that our reward for doing God’s will and for loving is happiness. The real reward that the workers in field got is not the payment or the wage, but it is the happiness of working in the field. The real reward that the older son had is not the celebration but the happiness of working and being with the father,
Doing the Will of God makes one happy. If we are happy and we meet someone who was once unhappy and became happy, we would not be jealous, but instead would celebrate too. Unfortunately, if we are not happy despite following our faith, then it means something is missing, and we need to rediscover what it is in the Gospel that we are missing. Perhaps, despite following the rules, it is possible that we have not yet loved enough. Perhaps the saints can help us further along this line.
I would like to comment on the original topic of the thread.
My mother used to tell us how bad she felt that God seemed unfair. In the prodigal son for instance, the father gave the prodigal son a big celebration and the other son nothing. In the parable involving workers in the field, the workers who worked longer still got the same wage as the workers who worked for a short while. It seems so unfair.
Well, my insights is that our reward for doing God’s will and for loving is happiness. The real reward that the workers in field got is not the payment or the wage, but it is the happiness of working in the field. The real reward that the older son had is not the celebration but the happiness of working and being with the father,
Doing the Will of God makes one happy. If we are happy and we meet someone who was once unhappy and became happy, we would not be jealous, but instead would celebrate too. Unfortunately, if we are not happy despite following our faith, then it means something is missing, and we need to rediscover what it is in the Gospel that we are missing. Perhaps, despite following the rules, it is possible that we have not yet loved enough. Perhaps the saints can help us further along this line.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Having read a lot of columns and blogs from Catholics all over the web, I think that Catholics are divided into two camps: the “I like this guy” camp and the “He said what?” camp. Interestingly, both groups are spending a fair bit of time trying to explain how what Francis is saying and doing does not undermine every dogma and doctrine since Trent.
However, I’m not reading anything that sounds like bitterness or resentment.
He’s not in Kansas anymore, and I think he has been thrust unexpectedly into one of the highest profile jobs in the world. It’s one thing to pay your own hotel bill…it’s quite another to overturn centuries of tradition by washing the feet of a woman…and a non-Christian at that. So, yeah, my advice would be to choose one’s words with care because they will be flashed around the world in seconds. Maybe have a handout for the press. Leak the footwashing thing a few days ahead of time so that people could understand what he was doing and why. It’s not about changing the message…it’s about managing the message so that it’s received as intended, Brendan. That’s all.
Hope so.
When a reporter asks Cardinal Dolan if he will be backing off on his opposition to gay marriage in light of what the Pope said, then I would say, “Yes, there is a problem with the Pope’s remarks.” Cardinal Dolan told the reporter that their would be no change in the Church’s stance on gay marriage.
But why was the question asked in the first place? Hello?
J
JReducation
Guest
None of these things bother me or my brothers for that matter. The pope is the pope. Unless he directs the Church to violate the 10 Commandments, he can say whatever he wants or not say it, do whatever he wants or not do it and only impacts us if we’re part of the target population about which he’s speaking or to whom he’s speaking.
For example, when he said "no smartphones, not fancy cars, no more airports and if the CDF asks you questions, just answer the question, don’t get into an argument, those things had to do with us. When he said to stop naval gazing and get out there and reach people on the periphery rather than sitting around trying to figure out what the right thing is or what the law said, that had to do with us.
When he says to stop pointing fingers and start preaching God’s mercy and bring people to that mercy, that has to do with us, because we’re doing the preaching. When he says stop gossiping, because gossip is a form of murder, that has to do with us.
If he says something that is really for the bishops, then it’s not for us. We just bypass it and continue on our way.
What have we done?. As superior I ordered all smartphones collected and given away. Each house has only one computer. Any car over 2005 is gone. There are no more black suits and clerical shirts, too expensive. If you want to dress up in other than a habit, visit Target. PS, I’m not paying for it, unless you absolutely need it. All medical insurance is gone. All retirement insurance is gone, unless you happen to be eligible for Social Security. One car to every 10 men. Share it, walk, hitchhike or take the bus.
When someone comes with concerns about abortion, homosexuality, divorce and remarriage, birth control, ask why that’s important to the person rather than slam them with rules. You will find that when you ask the question, you get answers than will help explain to them why it’s not as necessary as they think and you can explain the other moral options without making people feel like dirt.
As far as the rules that I was taught as a kid and defending those rules . . . the first rule that I was taught was the rule of the Incarnation. Enter into the humanity of the other so that you can elevate it rather than judge it from a distance as if you were not human yourself.
For example, when he said "no smartphones, not fancy cars, no more airports and if the CDF asks you questions, just answer the question, don’t get into an argument, those things had to do with us. When he said to stop naval gazing and get out there and reach people on the periphery rather than sitting around trying to figure out what the right thing is or what the law said, that had to do with us.
When he says to stop pointing fingers and start preaching God’s mercy and bring people to that mercy, that has to do with us, because we’re doing the preaching. When he says stop gossiping, because gossip is a form of murder, that has to do with us.
If he says something that is really for the bishops, then it’s not for us. We just bypass it and continue on our way.
What have we done?. As superior I ordered all smartphones collected and given away. Each house has only one computer. Any car over 2005 is gone. There are no more black suits and clerical shirts, too expensive. If you want to dress up in other than a habit, visit Target. PS, I’m not paying for it, unless you absolutely need it. All medical insurance is gone. All retirement insurance is gone, unless you happen to be eligible for Social Security. One car to every 10 men. Share it, walk, hitchhike or take the bus.
When someone comes with concerns about abortion, homosexuality, divorce and remarriage, birth control, ask why that’s important to the person rather than slam them with rules. You will find that when you ask the question, you get answers than will help explain to them why it’s not as necessary as they think and you can explain the other moral options without making people feel like dirt.
As far as the rules that I was taught as a kid and defending those rules . . . the first rule that I was taught was the rule of the Incarnation. Enter into the humanity of the other so that you can elevate it rather than judge it from a distance as if you were not human yourself.
K
kozlosap
Guest
Once again Brother JR, you put everything into focus for us!! I’m one who loves the Holy Father’s philosophy and manner of expressing his views, but I understand there are many who are afraid of new strategies of reaching out to the world. It’s obvious that your Order is living the Gospels.
S
Seamus_L
Guest
No medical insurance ? Is that common among people in holy orders ?
J
JReducation
Guest
It is common among the Franciscan renewal communities. We deliberately try to limit ourselves only to what people give us. This is the way that Franciscan life was lived in the 13th century.
M
MarkInOregon
Guest
I would like to suggest that we all read Five Reasons to Think Differently about Pope Francis by Dr. Jeff Mirus from Sept 24. It can be found at CatholicCulture.org. Here a couple of quotes from the article:
“If there is some fault involved, should we be looking for that fault primarily in the Pople or in those who seem reluctant to receive his message?”
“So when we hear someone speaking in a different way than we would about the good of the Church, we tend to be suspicious, to react negatively, to condemn. What we should be doing is not just hearing but listening. Especially when the pope speaks, we ought to want to stretch ourselves, to see where our attitudes might need adjustment, or to discern how the Holy Father may be calling us to go deeper into some mystery, or to emphasize some neglected aspect of Christian faith and life. We should be looking for an opportunity to grow spiritually by paying very close attention to his words.”
"So when the pope says we need to take a step back, regroup, and place a new emphasis on the basic message of the Gospel, we wonder why he is raining on our parade. Well may we wonder. I submit that we have not yet recognized that our culture lacks the spiritual resources for any sort of integral human development. But the Pope has.
“We are, in fact, dangerously locked in to the failures of the culture that has done so much to shape us. We are uncomfortable speaking the name of Jesus Christ to our neighbors, let alone to a political opponent. We have fallen into a false understanding of Christianity as essentially private, something which simple fairness dictates should be excluded from discussions of broader cultural, social and political matters. We have gradually drifted into secularism in ways we do not recognize, and one of those ways is to believe that all significant change is political. One consequence is our fear that if we cannot engage in political battles, on accepted political terms, the we have failed to do anything at all.”
And “Thus afflicted, we typically no longer even notice that we are fighting a war we cannot win–because we have ruled out in advance the very weapons which alone can win it. I mean, of course, the very Person who alone can win it, the same Person who won it in the first place so many centuries ago. For politics follows culture, and culture follows the beliefs and commitments of the people whose habitual activities create and form that culture. Here again, I submit that we have not fully recognized how rediculously one-demensional is our battle plan. We have not realized that without new spiritual resources from evangelization, we are socially and politically paralyzed. But the Pope has.”
The Peace of Christ,
Mark
M
MarkInOregon
Guest
Seconded.
S
severus68
Guest
Agreed.
C
Corki
Guest
Just be careful of creating a false dichotomy. Just because a person may have been more receptive to Pope John Paul II’s or Pope Benedict’s or Pope Paul’s manner of expressing their views dos not mean that they are “afraid” only that the new approach is not resonating as much with some as with others.
B
Brendan_64
Guest
That is a fair point. Different approaches do resonate with different people. But to berate (and in some cases even attack) an approach because it doesn’t particularly resonate with oneself would appear to be a quite self-focussed and selfish thing to do.
Do look inwardly amongst ourselves and want Pope Francis to preach to those alraedy within the bosom of our Church (even though we all do have differences) or do we look beyond andc see Pope Francis delivering a message of hope and welcome to the vsat bulk of humanity who dwel outside the doors of our Church?
The message is not about us, it is about the others. It is more important that it resonates with others, than it does with us.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
The pope certainly isn’t changing any doctrines.
Just yesterday with a secular Jewish client, she read an editorial how the pope has it right about sex and Syria, Putin has it right about Syria, but not our American Congress.
I explained a little as I could to her reaction to the New York Times article within my professional boundaries, but could see, as well as the rest of the world, that irregardless, they likewise have misread the pope’s comments, and read what they want to believe.
The Church is still very successful in drawing people to its membership. But the problem is that in some ways it has become too big. The Church is constantly drawing in new peopls and cultures to impart the fullness of life and teaching in Christ…but there is a church culture people fall into, that is a manner of relating.
Many think the Western Church, primarily that of the first world countries, is quite bureaucratic in its behavior and way of relating. Francis is simply calling us to renew our faith in Christ, and to live more in His grace, power, and witness to those we encounter in daily life.
I also note that you seldom hear Church professionals in all ranks, speak personably of Our Lord when communicating among the faithful truths of our faith that go beyond intellect and reflection, into a type of communication that witnesses a living, personable and dynamic faith just within the world of Catholics.
I think Pope Francis is not aware of how much sacrifice people of faith go through in promoting the sanctity of human life here in America, the mother lode, the Evil Empire so to speak of the free sex culture – free and casual sex, shameless reference to contraception, the absence of recognizing the family as the foundation of society, the promotion of these beliefs and practices into the world, including abortion and pornography.
There are now to this date many abortion centers closing, the lives of infants being saved, by the heroic devotion of people for life. I don’t think the pope is that aware of this, the suffering many women and children go through because of the great sex obsessed culture we live in, where one hardly ever hears from the pulpit talks opposing contraception, abortion, or sexual orientation. Instead we hear to uphold all life and serve one another.
So I think that he may not be aware much of the pro life movement in America and the great sacrifice those who are most active in it have gone through, but addressing more our need to get out of this bureaucratic way of relating to one another, and seek a new life and way for these times in the Lord.
The world is in such need of Christian witness and Christ tells us not to be afraid.
Just yesterday with a secular Jewish client, she read an editorial how the pope has it right about sex and Syria, Putin has it right about Syria, but not our American Congress.
I explained a little as I could to her reaction to the New York Times article within my professional boundaries, but could see, as well as the rest of the world, that irregardless, they likewise have misread the pope’s comments, and read what they want to believe.
The Church is still very successful in drawing people to its membership. But the problem is that in some ways it has become too big. The Church is constantly drawing in new peopls and cultures to impart the fullness of life and teaching in Christ…but there is a church culture people fall into, that is a manner of relating.
Many think the Western Church, primarily that of the first world countries, is quite bureaucratic in its behavior and way of relating. Francis is simply calling us to renew our faith in Christ, and to live more in His grace, power, and witness to those we encounter in daily life.
I also note that you seldom hear Church professionals in all ranks, speak personably of Our Lord when communicating among the faithful truths of our faith that go beyond intellect and reflection, into a type of communication that witnesses a living, personable and dynamic faith just within the world of Catholics.
I think Pope Francis is not aware of how much sacrifice people of faith go through in promoting the sanctity of human life here in America, the mother lode, the Evil Empire so to speak of the free sex culture – free and casual sex, shameless reference to contraception, the absence of recognizing the family as the foundation of society, the promotion of these beliefs and practices into the world, including abortion and pornography.
There are now to this date many abortion centers closing, the lives of infants being saved, by the heroic devotion of people for life. I don’t think the pope is that aware of this, the suffering many women and children go through because of the great sex obsessed culture we live in, where one hardly ever hears from the pulpit talks opposing contraception, abortion, or sexual orientation. Instead we hear to uphold all life and serve one another.
So I think that he may not be aware much of the pro life movement in America and the great sacrifice those who are most active in it have gone through, but addressing more our need to get out of this bureaucratic way of relating to one another, and seek a new life and way for these times in the Lord.
The world is in such need of Christian witness and Christ tells us not to be afraid.
E
Elizabeth502
Guest
Whoa. Another very false dichotomy. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth. That implies universality. “The others” are not “more important” than ourselves because we are also those others. His communication with members of the Church is at least as important as it is with “others.” As every Pope has always known, his job first and foremost is to lead the Church Militant (us) in the battle for souls.
- Status