Is Pope Francis reaching out to the prodigals and are some of us feeling like the older brother?

[MarkInOregon]

When I picked and chose what i wanted to believe when I was younger, I wish I had a family member or Catholic friend who was orthodox in the faith to say, I was mistaken…

Would you have listened? My family members don’t listen to me. Doesn’t mean I don’t point out things but that doesn’t make them listen. Maybe somewhere down the road it will hit home, but it’s not today. If I am too strident or if I distance myself from them–will that help with their full conversion or will it drive them farther away? I think it is better to be involved in their lives and hopefully set a good example of what it means to live a catholic life–especially in acknowledging my failures and in seeking forgiveness.

When I scandalized others, in identifying as a Catholic, and supporting policies that attacked Holy Mother Church. I had wish someone would have corrected me, when I misled others, no better than the Senators and the Pelosis of the world…

Would you have listened any better than our elected officials do today? Do you really think no one in authority has spoken to Senator Pelosis? She’s not listening. She thinks she’s right. She thinks she knows better than the Church. People have to be ready to hear. I can remember a passage in the Bible that I know I had read a thousand times but I never heard it–then late one night–all of a sudden I got it-- I heard it for the first time even though I had actually heard it a thousand times.

So we can shout the message from the roof tops but if we don’t do all we can to help people be ready to hear the message then in reality it is all for not. I hope not just to be a sower who scatters his seeds on fertile ground, bad ground and rocky ground leaving the outcome to chance. I hope to be a gardener who helps to ready the soil for planting, cultivates, waters, fertilizes and helps to bring the crop to harvest.

[qoute]When I proudly identified as a Catholic, in a cultural sense, to my atheist friends, because I felt better approved, “i’m not like one of those weird fundamentalists who believe in Jesusaurs” I had wished I known a Catholic who could have said “hey, you’re making a fool of yourself”

Not to harp on it but would you have listened? Were you ready to hear? Did people maybe say something but you just didn’t hear it because you weren’t ready?

And when it did happen when I said awful things about others or in my youthful irreverence, I did not appreciate when it was happening – but it helped me to go and confess those old sins later years , in reflecting on how my neighbor called me out on that sin against the 5th commandment.

To make someone uncomfortable does not mean, they are preaching their faith wrongly to them. And even pagans are able to admonish each other, even when they don’t call it sins.

In fact, it is what we ought to do, we ought to help our neighbors see the good. Not just leave everyone as if we are all on personal islands towards salvation.

It would seem our very lives should make others uncomfortable. Hopefully in a good way. As examples of how it is possible to live the Gospel in this day and age. It would seem that we should all be helping each other to do this. We should admonish each other as we fail to live up to our beliefs and to the Gospel mission. The nature of that admonishment to the world of unbelievers–I am not 100% sure of the best approach–it would seem that each person, each society may call for a slightly different approach–much like teachers who need to determine the best way to reach each individual student–not just a one approach fits all–like stamping out cookies. For example, I think standing in front of Planned Parenthood silently praying while drivers go by yelling obsenities at you is a more effective witness than being confrotational in most instances. I am not an in your face person and I don’t respond well to those who are–it would just drive me away. I don’t know many people who respond well to confrontation.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Reread, or at least scan, the 1000+ post thread in Catholic News, now locked for size reasons. Both explicit and implicit statements there about how “different” his message is. It isn’t different. Posters are just choosing to regard it as different, and to pretend that he has subordinated some fixed doctrine below other doctrine, which he hasn’t. And if he did so, he would be a heretic, which he is not. The Spin Cycle on this has been completely out of control and irrational.

Yep. A 2,000-year old message, repeated by every Pope of modern memory.

You imply that a different message implies a different doctrine. That is false. Methods change, even if doctrines don’t. The Pope is sending a message about methods.

 

[Elizabeth502]

You imply that a different message implies a different doctrine. That is false.

I didn’t imply it, no. I was reporting accurately that other people were implying it, and strongly. Lots of other people. The evidence is all there. Particularly the part about subordinating doctrine. (And the rejoicing about conclusions which cannot be made.)

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I didn’t imply it, no. I was reporting accurately that other people were implying it, and strongly. Lots of other people. The evidence is all there. Particularly the part about subordinating doctrine. (And the rejoicing about conclusions which cannot be made.)

You said:

Both explicit and implicit statements there about how “different” his message is. It isn’t different.

So you deny even that Pope Francis’s message is different. But his message is *obviously *different, even though he is not changing doctrine. I’m just puzzled as to how you can say his message is the same.

 

[severus68]

Reread, or at least scan, the 1000+ post thread in Catholic News, now locked for size reasons. Both explicit and implicit statements there about how “different” his message is. It isn’t different. Posters are just choosing to regard it as different, and to pretend that he has subordinated some fixed doctrine below other doctrine, which he hasn’t. And if he did so, he would be a heretic, which he is not. The Spin Cycle on this has been completely out of control and irrational.

Yep. A 2,000-year old message, repeated by every Pope of modern memory.

A message that needs to repeated, that needs to be shouted out.

I do not understand your issue. No one on CAF has said doctrine has been changed by the Pope. That some have felt hope at his words is far from a bad thing.

 

[OraLabora]

So you deny even that Pope Francis’s message is different. But his message is *obviously *different, even though he is not changing doctrine. I’m just puzzled as to how you can say his message is the same.

There is very clearly a change in emphasis; it’s obvious to anybody who reads the interview from end to end. I think to some extent the differences between Francis and Benedict can be traced to their respective heritages (Germanic vs. Latin), and also to pastoral experience, .

Part is no doubt media spin, but the change in tone seems very real to me; even Protestants have taken notice of Francis, and my Anglican wife positively loves him

Neither have said anything contrary to Church teaching. I do like this emphasis on Grace as medicine, and the Church as a place of healing, not condemnation. Clearly, the message of Francis resonates and that’s a good thing.

 

[severus68]

There is very clearly a change in emphasis; it’s obvious to anybody who reads the interview from end to end. I think to some extent the differences between Francis and Benedict can be traced to their respective heritages (Germanic vs. Latin), and also to pastoral experience, .

Part is no doubt media spin, but the change in tone seems very real to me; even Protestants have taken notice of Francis, and my Anglican wife positively loves him

Neither have said anything contrary to Church teaching. I do like this emphasis on Grace as medicine, and the Church as a place of healing, not condemnation. Clearly, the message of Francis resonates and that’s a good thing.

It is a good thing.

 

[gracepoole]

It is a good thing.

I really can’t see how it’s *not *a good thing. It seems as though some are worried he’s offering some sort of bait and switch shtick.

 

[Jon_S_1]

There is very clearly a change in emphasis; it’s obvious to anybody who reads the interview from end to end. I think to some extent the differences between Francis and Benedict can be traced to their respective heritages (Germanic vs. Latin), and also to pastoral experience, .

Part is no doubt media spin, but the change in tone seems very real to me; even Protestants have taken notice of Francis, and my Anglican wife positively loves him

Neither have said anything contrary to Church teaching. I do like this emphasis on Grace as medicine, and the Church as a place of healing, not condemnation. Clearly, the message of Francis resonates and that’s a good thing.

Yeah, unrepentant sinners have all eternity to be condemned. We should focus on trying to show them Christ so they choose for themselves to follow him. That’s all the pope is saying!

 

[Veridical16]

Would you have listened? My family members don’t listen to me. Doesn’t mean I don’t point out things but that doesn’t make them listen. Maybe somewhere down the road it will hit home, but it’s not today. If I am too strident or if I distance myself from them–will that help with their full conversion or will it drive them farther away? . . .
Not to harp on it but would you have listened? Did people maybe say something but you just didn’t hear it because you weren’t ready?

I am not 100% sure of the best approach–it would seem that each person, each society may call for a slightly different approach–not just a one approach fits all. . .For example, I think standing in front of Planned Parenthood silently praying while drivers go by yelling obsenities at you is a more effective witness than being confrotational in most instances.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

Whether at that time I would have listened or not, it would have been my fault and not reflect poorly on the one doing the fraternal correction.

Do not rebuke scorners or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you
Proverbs 9:8

You make a good point about how we don’t have to speak up all the time, depending on the disposition of the person. I agree with that. But I think a lot of people even on here take that and carry the idea of just keeping to ourselves too far, BECAUSE we live in a Pluralistic society.

I recall Fr. Mitch Pacwa saying a bishop asking Blessed John Paul II, about how ignorance of youth committing premarital sex is so rampant he asked whether or not they have responsibility should they go to Hell, and JPII said the bishop is responsible.

• As for Pelosi - She is not the best example of someone who seeks good will; she puts on a front in conjunction with the corrupt relationship of the Democratic Party and parts of the politically minded dissident Catholic American Institutions (i.e. many Catholic U’s and Political fronts) – and she knows what’s she’s doing to keep the false American Catholic identity going. She knows who her constituents are. The false American identity of today’s Catholics is so vast, that even Sean Hannity and Bill O’Reilly are in the same boat as Pelosi.

Contrary to people’s perceptions, ignorance about what’s right and wrong in the 21st century, is probably rare. Chris Matthews for instance stated what the Church teaches on homosexuality correctly on television. The irony is those who have a zealous disdain for the Church know at least the bare basics of what the Church teaches, whereas those lukewarm inside through negligence are mislead by those working openly or surreptitiously against Christ.]]*

I hope not just to be a sower who scatters his seeds on fertile ground, bad ground and rocky ground leaving the outcome to chance. I hope to be a gardener who helps to ready the soil for planting, cultivates, waters, fertilizes and helps to bring the crop to harvest.

To expand on your comments. Even IF we do have a moment where we would have to suffer through our neighbor reacting badly, we just have to ask for God’s grace to rectify it, down the road, who is not confined by our temporal experience of that particular moment where we think we might have failed to do right when God sees all. By choosing to promulgate the truth to another human being, it may have brought graces to them in the future.

The seed does nothing until planted. I would not worry about being a “Scatterer”

Those who scatter, are the hypocrites with bad example, to the ones outside who preach false doctrines and gospels, the preachers who persist in their errors, and those who do not gather with Christ in the Church. i.e. heresy peddlers and schismatics. Also since God knows the hearts of men, who are we to identify who is the rocky ground? We should recognize everyone as fertile ground as far as we can see, and let God do the rest.

Pope John Paul II said, any truth professed, brings down the graces of God. Even the saying of natural truths. Professing an error brings nothing, and I suppose not saying anything at all is as good as professing an error. No graces.

I have no problem with not having to speak up all the time depending on the situation and the person’s dispositions. I agree we shouldn’t be looking for a confrontation but we should always be ready at least to give a defense or say the truth as well! To relay a priest addressing the Vatican council. Practicing one’s faith is not just a private endeavor; that is not our Faith, that is not the Catholic Faith.

 

[CradleJourney]

The MOST interesting point if you think about it, is why is the press giving a Catholic pope so much air time when our society in general and the secular press specifically usually wouldn’t give anything Catholic a wave of their hand? If you think about it, in the last 50 or 100 years, unless the current pope died, got shot, traveled to a separate continent or resigned–and outside of covering midnight mass on Christmas–when do you remember the press covering much of anything Catholic? And yet, the secular press is hanging on every word Pope Francis says, his day of prayer for peace in Syria, his new used car, where he chooses to take up residence–even his lifestyle in Argentina prior to his becoming pope. Non Catholics who turn on the TV have undoubtedly heard more about the Catholic church and the pope in the past few months than they ever have before in their entire life! Is it just possible that God is revealing Himself to the entire world and in His own way through our new pope? Just a thought…:clapping:

Just what I was thinking!

 

[CradleJourney]

I admit, as a “prodigal son” myself, I have welcomed the Pope’s words and emphasis. I admit I hadn’t really thought about it much from the point of view of the older son - now I can see where it would be disconcerting.

What does strike me over and over in this and the 1000+ posts on this topic are the use of two types of phrases:

“I am afraid… / Aren’t you afraid that… / I fear…” - but haven’t we been taught not to fear? Does not the Bible, God’s Word, tell us over and over and over again - fear not?

and the second (more of a viewpoint than a phrase I’ll admit) -

“We need to…/The Pope needs to … / Pope Francis should…/Shouldn’t we…/We must…” - this focus all on what we need/should/could/must do and what the Pope needs/should/could/must do really bothers me because it seems to omit what GOD will do. That’s the other truth that is fundamental in my life - Trust God. Pope Francis said it. It, too, is in the Bible, I think. Somehow God and His power to touch people, to change people, to prompt people seems to have gotten lost in all the “shouting”. I prefer to trust God to direct our pope - and to deal with the hearts of those who hear his words.

For those really wanting to know where to start, what to do, how to handle what the Pope is saying, what the media is saying, etc. - I would humbly suggest considering those two points from which to start - fear not, trust God.

Maybe it’s because I know how far God has brought me in my own life. Maybe it’s how when I was acting in a sinful manner, I really did know it was sinful - even though I would have sworn up and down it was not to anyone who confronted me. Maybe it’s how I did come back still holding onto some objections to church teaching, but as I’ve learned more, and grown more in grace, my objections have been carefully and gently worn away. Maybe because as I go forward now, I expect to find areas I’ll still have to confront and deal with because not only am I far, far from perfect, I know I’ll never ever be - but I’m still called to journey towards perfection. Maybe it’s all that and more - but through good times/bad times, through conflicts, misunderstandings, hurt feelings, and all else - I find I can always go back to that. Fear not. Trust God.

Peace to all.

 

[Veridical16]

I admit, as a “prodigal son” myself, I have welcomed the Pope’s words and emphasis. I admit I hadn’t really thought about it much from the point of view of the older son - now I can see where it would be disconcerting. . . [truncated] What does strike me over and over in this and the 1000+ posts on this topic are the use Fear not. Trust God. . . . . .

Peace to all.

You are right, that’s the motto of John Paul II. Be not afraid.

Thanks for your perspective

Everyone should just spend time with Jesus, rather than worry about the daily human efforts of his Vicar and the Church’s perception.

Somehow God and His power to touch people, to change people, to prompt people seems to have gotten lost in all the “shouting”. I prefer to trust God to direct our pope - and to deal with the hearts of those who hear his words.

The Apostles and disciples argued a lot amongst themselves at times, other times they showed much fear and worry all in the presence of God incarnate, so how much worse are we at times?

 

[clem456]

…
What does strike me over and over in this and the 1000+ posts on this topic are the use of two types of phrases:

“I am afraid… / Aren’t you afraid that… / I fear…” - but haven’t we been taught not to fear? Does not the Bible, God’s Word, tell us over and over and over again - fear not?

and the second (more of a viewpoint than a phrase I’ll admit) -

“We need to…/The Pope needs to … / Pope Francis should…/Shouldn’t we…/We must…” - this focus all on what we need/should/could/must do and what the Pope needs/should/could/must do really bothers me because it seems to omit what GOD will do. That’s the other truth that is fundamental in my life - Trust God. Pope Francis said it. It, too, is in the Bible, I think. Somehow God and His power to touch people, to change people, to prompt people seems to have gotten lost in all the “shouting”. I prefer to trust God to direct our pope - and to deal with the hearts of those who hear his words.

For those really wanting to know where to start, what to do, how to handle what the Pope is saying, what the media is saying, etc. - I would humbly suggest considering those two points from which to start - fear not, trust God.
…
Fear not. Trust God.

Peace to all.

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[eucharist04]

. 28Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” (Mat.11:28-30)

 

[Randy_Carson]

Before I begin this little piece for reflection, I just want to say that our Moderators have already made it clear that we shouldn’t presume to judge the Pope:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=764882

I wouldn’t be surprised if some recent threads got shut down . . . but that’s not for me to decide, 'nuff said. Now for my “pearls of wisdom,” for whatever they’re worth. :twocents:

I’m a morally “conservative” cradle Catholic. I have the reaction too sometimes - "The Pope said what?!" Although I’m learning to 1) fall back on the good catechesis I received as a child and continued from that time to the present, and 2) go to sources that are Catholic, not secular, for any further clarification I desire.

But here’s the thing - sometimes I have this fear. And if I look at it closely, I see myself, being a very good imitation of the older brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son. Sometimes I fear the rules won’t be enforced enough, won’t be enforced for someone else, etc. - when I have followed them all my life (mostly) and fought for them and helped explain them to people and all these efforts I’ve made.

And it is my realization, perhaps our Holy Father is like that father in the story Jesus told. He’s out there on the road, looking for ways to reach those prodigal sons and daughters. Am I going to feel all put out and envious and afraid? Or am I going to join in the celebration?

It’s a spiritual test for me. Maybe it is for a lot of us. In my heart of hearts, I don’t think we need to be so fearful. Easier said than done, maybe, but doable. :curtsey:

Can you imagine where our country would be with regard to abortion if Catholics had not dedicated themselves to overcoming this evil? Is this one of the “small-minded issues” that Pope Francis was referring to in his recent press interview?

As a conservative Catholic, what I’m hearing is that we’ve been doing it all wrong. That’s probably not what he means…but that’s the message I’m getting so far.

I hope that your expressions of optimism are well-founded, but I can’t get over the sense that this Father is telling the prodigal, “No need to repent and come home…you’re fine wherever you are. I’ll send more money.”

 

[clem456]

Can you imagine where our country would be with regard to abortion if Catholics had not dedicated themselves to overcoming this evil? Is this one of the “small-minded issues” that Pope Francis was referring to in his recent press interview?

As a conservative Catholic, what I’m hearing is that we’ve been doing it all wrong. That’s probably not what he means…but that’s the message I’m getting so far.

I hope that your expressions of optimism are well-founded, but I can’t get over the sense that this Father is telling the prodigal, “No need to repent and come home…you’re fine wherever you are. I’ll send more money.”

If you read his comments in America magazine, this is not what he is saying. It’s a long interview but worth the time to read it, so that we can get an accurate sense of what he is saying without the confusion of secular interpretations.
americamagazine.org/pope-interview

 

[Cojuanco]

Can you imagine where our country would be with regard to abortion if Catholics had not dedicated themselves to overcoming this evil? Is this one of the “small-minded issues” that Pope Francis was referring to in his recent press interview?

As a conservative Catholic, what I’m hearing is that we’ve been doing it all wrong. That’s probably not what he means…but that’s the message I’m getting so far.

I hope that your expressions of optimism are well-founded, but I can’t get over the sense that this Father is telling the prodigal, “No need to repent and come home…you’re fine wherever you are. I’ll send more money.”

Given the fact that the next day, the Holy Father told pro-life gynecologists to keep being signs of the gospel of life, and that he has excommunicated a notorious promoter of gay marriage (barely a year and he’s issued an excommunication decree!), I doubt he’s saying abortion or marriage is unimportant.

What he is saying is that we are Catholics first, and that we should avoid the temptation of being all about abortion, all the time. But you may say, the problem does not exist because the priest doesn’t mention it that often! Leaving aside the fact there may be good reason to do this, his words might be directed at some of the laity who seem to think the Church has no worthy position on issues outside the non-pelvic. Without knowing it they have made the pro-life movement their idol, as NARAL have made Moloch their idol. We are to pursue whatever our calling is in the context of the Gospel is what he is saying.

 

[Randy_Carson]

If you read his comments in America magazine, this is not what he is saying. It’s a long interview but worth the time to read it, so that we can get an accurate sense of what he is saying without the confusion of secular interpretations.
americamagazine.org/pope-interview

I know.

But this is what the “low information” Catholic, Protestant or Atheist is hearing.

Hardly a day goes by when we’re not having to walk something back or dig for the deeper meaning in a statement or action.

He washed whose feet?
He said what to a homosexual?
Atheists just need to follow their consciences?

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith must have its hands full putting out clarifications.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Can you imagine where our country would be with regard to abortion if Catholics had not dedicated themselves to overcoming this evil? Is this one of the “small-minded issues” that Pope Francis was referring to in his recent press interview?

As a conservative Catholic, what I’m hearing is that we’ve been doing it all wrong. That’s probably not what he means…but that’s the message I’m getting so far.

I hope that your expressions of optimism are well-founded, but I can’t get over the sense that this Father is telling the prodigal, “No need to repent and come home…you’re fine wherever you are. I’ll send more money.”

Can you imagine where our country would be in regard to abortion if every single Person born into a Catholic Family was well catechized? If every individual had a living living trusting relationship with Jesus Christ. If they were taught to love God first instead of the american pursuit of money?

Can you imagine an abortion problem in a nation where every professed Christian loved Christ and followed his commands?

Can you imagine a nation where abortion was not an issue because the Gospel was first and foremost?

Imagine it.

Pope Francis does