Is Pope Francis really that liberal?

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I often think of the law of pendulums. . .things swing out to their ‘maximum point’ one way, then swing to the maximum point ‘the other way’. We’ve had lots of points through Church history, starting with a few Christians, spreading to a lot of Christians, who then start to splinter out (Arian heresy), then period of growth (evangelizing the heathens) and the heathens then becoming fractured (the Reformation) coming back through various wars and revolutions to a pretty "Christian world’ around the time of WW2, then splintering with ‘inside infiltrations’, societal fracturing, abundance of material goods for many leading to insurrections among the poor. . and that is probably going to lead to either an ultimate catastrophe and the second coming, or a pretty MAJOR catastrophe which will ‘thin down’ Christians who will then once more start to evangelize and hopefully bring about the Kingdom of God.
 
tseleehw said:
I have since come to accept that the Church is only going to get smaller and smaller, at least in the western world, and I think at some point, even if it is decades from now, the Vatican will have to come to terms with that as well. Maybe there is nothing that can realistically be done to bring people back in great numbers.
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The Church is a lot smaller than people realise. The official statistics are not accurate because apostates rarely formally leave the Church. Furthermore, the statistics include many ‘Catholics’ who reject Church teaching. I think the number of orthodox, practicing Catholics is a very small fraction of the total number.

If we use orthodoxy as the criterion for Catholic status, then the Church is tiny. For example, Ireland is overwhelmingly Catholic, but 66% voted for abortion! In my view, these people have lost the Faith - they have apostatised.

None of this worries me. It’s all part of prophecy. Scripture foretells a Great Apostasy. Pope Francis will not be able to stop this from happening. In fact, personal experience leads me to believe that Francis may be alienating orthodox Catholics.
 
You’re undoubtedly right about that. I often hear the well-known citation that there are 1.2 billion Catholics in the world. Maybe (and it’s a big maybe) if you would add up the numbers of baptized Catholics in every diocese in the world you would get somewhere close to that. But as you say, the number of practicing, orthodox Catholics is likely a tiny fraction of that, and it’s not getting any larger.
 
Rob2 said:
So , if you are correct , which you are not
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You have yet to answer what is incorrect about what I stated. You do not believe that those who dissent from church teaching are practicing liberalism? How else does one reject the revealed law of God other than by putting themselves in that camp that holds the ideal that man is not subject to God’s law?
 
He is neither Republican nor Democrat. His views on certain issues, such as abortion or gay marriage, will align with the Republican position, while his views on other issues, such as immigration or the death penalty, will align with the Democrat position. This frustrates American Catholics who can only see the world through the Republican / Democrat divide lens. The reality is that Popes Benedict XVI and St. John Paul II didn’t fit within the American conservative / liberal paradigm either… but it was less obvious because the reality is that Pope Francis is a “progressive”. I say this not as a criticism. “Progressive” isn’t a dirty word. Within the spectrum of orthodoxy, there are positions that are more conservative and positions that are more progressive. Cardinal Burke is a good example of an orthodox prelate in good standing who represents the conservative side of the spectrum. The Holy Father is an orthodox prelate in good standing who represents the progressive side of the spectrum.
 
“Contrasts with…an orthodox approach”
Well, there’s a word for that. And I wouldn’t accuse the Pope of it.
(Not saying anyone is, just responding to the definition you posted)
 
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Sounds reasonable.
I would say, vis-a-vis those first two “issues” you mention, that it’s not a “view” so much as it is a right understanding of natural and Divine law. That’s an understanding this pope clearly has, much to the ultimate chagrin of the dissenters in the Church. Deo gratias!
 
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EXdrinker said:
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Rob2:
So If what you say is correct , and it isn’t , I trust that you have flagged the OP for implying by the title of this thread that Pope Francis is liberal .
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I am curious on what you believe was incorrect about what I stated. Why would I flag someone for implying that the Pope is liberal?
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Because you have said ,“Catholics who dissent from church teaching are choosing liberalism, the idea that individuals are independent of and not subject to the revealed law of God. Those that follow this idea are called liberals.”

So to imply that the Holy Father is liberal is , according to your wording , to imply that the Holy Father dissents from Church teaching , and has the idea that he is independent of and not subject to the revealed law of God .

Hence the need for flagging the OP if I understand the rules correctly .
 
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mrsdizzyd said:
The short version is that Jesuits believe and live the idea that you have to meet people where they are, then take their hand to lead them to where you are going.
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This Jesuit principle is valid only for persuasion one on one, when you know the individual.

At present the media is controlled by a handful of giant corporations. They all demand attention to the same few issues. In effect, they limit discussion or thinking of other issues.

The Vatican, or my local diocese, is wrong to assume that my interests and concerns are the ones chosen for me by the media.

St JP II often addressed issues not on the media agenda. But they clearly resonated as touching the minds and hearts of many people. Today, many departments of the Vatican and my diocese would shut down if they couldn’t get their daily news feed from the corporations.
 
It is usually good practice to seek out a transcript when the news is reporting on anything religious.
 
Liberal what? He is not a theological liberal, though he lacks the clarity of some popes. And American politics is skewed compared to the rest of the world. The European center-right is our left.
 
The pope (every pope in history, present and future) has a totally different perspective as his mission is for every single human being to become a saint. This is borderless so continents, countries, regions are not a focus. It is “we together as human beings on planet Earth” and not “I alone”.

Secular media has very limited knowledge (to be polite) about Christianity and other religions. I don’t trust anything reported on the Catholic Church until I have read or heard it from Vatican sources or any other trusted Catholic source.

JP II was a philosopher, Benedict XVI is a theologian and pope Francis is pastoral if you read their written works and describe in only one word. All of them needed in their time.
 
HeDa said:
St JP II was a philosopher, Benedict XVI is a theologian and pope Francis is pastoral if you read their written works and describe in only one word
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My own opinion would be that St. J P II was both pastoral and a teacher, and Francis is just pastoral. He is not more pastoral than St JP II.
 
I’m not sure Francis is more pastoral than Benedict. Benedict had enormous opposition from the media, which censored anything he said and did that might change how they wanted him depicted.

The media is trying to depict Francis as ONLY pastoral to oppose the two previous popes.
 
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