Is Pope Francis right on climate change?

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Hey all,

I am going to be dropping out. Thank you all for your thoughts and participation and God bless you!

ferd
 
The trouble with this analysis, Lynn, is that it does not really refute the claim that " even if the US strenuously tries to reduce our CO2 emissions the effect will be miniscule…", which is what you quoted and were apparently addressing.

First you must recognize that ferd’s claim is about the US only. The idea being that the US is not the major contributor to GHG emissions, even if we do emit more per capita that most other nations. (I think only Canada emits more per capita, because of their small population.) If China and the others do not match our efforts at GHG reduction, our efforts may indeed produce “miniscule” results.

Also you are not realistic in estimating your personal reduction of your carbon footprint. You have cited several areas where you have reduced. But you have not taken into account your share of GHG due to industrial agriculture. You do buy food at the store, don’t you? Then to be fair you should count your share of the emissions that are caused in farming and transporting foodstuffs to the store. In light of the total indirect carbon footprint due to you, the reductions you cited may not be as dramatic as they seem at first.

I wonder about the total life-cycle carbon footprint of some of the capital expenditures you have made to achieve your reductions. How much CO2 is emitted due to the manufacturing of a Volt? Of your solar panels? Of your share of wind turbine production? Then figure how long these things last before they need replacing and amortize the manufacturing CO2 footprint over that lifetime and add it to your bill. See, there are a lot of CO2 emissions you have omitted talking about.

Also, I think it is much harder for someone living “up north” to even achieve the reductions you have mentioned in Texas. You have wind, and you don’t need much heat - mostly AC. That is well-suited to renewable energy. Most people in north cannot do what you have done. So ferd’s statement seems to stand.
👍👍👍
 
I agree that mgw is just a ploy by politcians to gain and keep more power. When one considers that one volcanic eruption puts more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere than industrial civilization has put into the air SINCE ITS CONCEPTION, and that 35 to 50 volcanoes erupt a year, it is obvious mgw is, on the face of it, absurd. In the 70’s this same crowd predicted an ice age and the measures they called for are exactly the same measures they are calling for to deal with mgw. I read the pope’s encyclical in which he calls for a worldwide central authority to enforce environmental regulations. His lack of understanding of human nature is stunning. What does he think such centralization of power will result in, given the fallen nature of man. What has history taught us is always the result-great and demonic evil. And why do you suppose that all the measures we are asked to employ to prevent these “catastrophes” always involve redistribution of wealth and power, away from established, successful civilizations to third world countries-basic communist tenets. During the heyday of the Soviet Union the KGB had a mission to massively infiltrate the Catholic Church with agents instructed to rise as high as they could in the church. I think one of them may have risen as high as it is possible to go.
 
I agree that mgw is just a ploy by politcians to gain and keep more power. When one considers that one volcanic eruption puts more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere than industrial civilization has put into the air SINCE ITS CONCEPTION, and that 35 to 50 volcanoes erupt a year, it is obvious mgw is, on the face of it, absurd. In the 70’s this same crowd predicted an ice age and the measures they called for are exactly the same measures they are calling for to deal with mgw. I read the pope’s encyclical in which he calls for a worldwide central authority to enforce environmental regulations. His lack of understanding of human nature is stunning. What does he think such centralization of power will result in, given the fallen nature of man. What has history taught us is always the result-great and demonic evil. And why do you suppose that all the measures we are asked to employ to prevent these “catastrophes” always involve redistribution of wealth and power, away from established, successful civilizations to third world countries-basic communist tenets. During the heyday of the Soviet Union the KGB had a mission to massively infiltrate the Catholic Church with agents instructed to rise as high as they could in the church. I think one of them may have risen as high as it is possible to go.
Rod, I can’t find any supporting evidence that volcanoes release more CO2 than man. While I agree that catastrophic warming from Man’s actions is not supported, the volcano claim is not true.
 
I read the pope’s encyclical in which he calls for a worldwide central authority to enforce environmental regulations. His lack of understanding of human nature is stunning. What does he think such centralization of power will result in, given the fallen nature of man.
What hubris! To think that you need to lecture the pope on the fallen nature of man.
 
The trouble with this analysis, Lynn, is that it does not really refute the claim that " even if the US strenuously tries to reduce our CO2 emissions the effect will be miniscule…", which is what you quoted and were apparently addressing.

First you must recognize that ferd’s claim is about the US only. The idea being that the US is not the major contributor to GHG emissions, even if we do emit more per capita that most other nations. (I think only Canada emits more per capita, because of their small population.) If China and the others do not match our efforts at GHG reduction, our efforts may indeed produce “miniscule” results.

Also you are not realistic in estimating your personal reduction of your carbon footprint. You have cited several areas where you have reduced. But you have not taken into account your share of GHG due to industrial agriculture. You do buy food at the store, don’t you? Then to be fair you should count your share of the emissions that are caused in farming and transporting foodstuffs to the store. In light of the total indirect carbon footprint due to you, the reductions you cited may not be as dramatic as they seem at first.

I wonder about the total life-cycle carbon footprint of some of the capital expenditures you have made to achieve your reductions. How much CO2 is emitted due to the manufacturing of a Volt? Of your solar panels? Of your share of wind turbine production? Then figure how long these things last before they need replacing and amortize the manufacturing CO2 footprint over that lifetime and add it to your bill. See, there are a lot of CO2 emissions you have omitted talking about.

Also, I think it is much harder for someone living “up north” to even achieve the reductions you have mentioned in Texas. You have wind, and you don’t need much heat - mostly AC. That is well-suited to renewable energy. Most people in north cannot do what you have done. So ferd’s statement seems to stand.
A lot was guessimate (beyond our direct energy use for transportation and electricity). But I’m reducing my intake of food :). Which I need to do for health, as well as for the environment. Also reducing our water and “things” consumption." Think: garage sales, thrift shops, the Goodwill … and just cut back on things that one really doesn’t need and won’t bring more than a few moments of happiness 🙂 At a recent garage sale I picked up a Tibetan singing bowl for $3 (worth probably $100)…and it is something I had sort of wanted, after giving the one I had to a friend whose husband had cancer some 15 years ago. Think – buying it that way at a garage sale saved shipping & importing, etc.

As for industrial productivity, it too can reduce by more than 75% cost-effectively. I know that from many sources, because at one time I was preparing a “Business & the Environment” course, but the main source is the writings by Amory Lovins and his Rocky Mountain Institute. See www.natcap.org (book) and www.rmi.org . They have some more recently books and articles as well.

One really has to do a lot of reading to become convinced that what I say is very true, because there is no one silver bullet but many ingenious as well as quite simple ideas to reduce, reuse, recycle, become energy/resource (including food & water) efficient/conservative and go on alt energy when feasible – for households, businesses, schools, gov at all levels.

And from what I’ve read in passing, China is making great strides in that direction (either that or die off due to the local pollution), and I think India is too. Some rural folks in India have come up with great ideas – like taking 2 used 55 gallon drum barrels, splitting them down the middle, and making vertical axis wind generators out of them 🙂

I know there are also some programs for Africa, to help them develop in “soft path” ways that are not so harmful to the environment.

The entire world’s population needs to reduce on average by about 50% – which means we in the U.S. and other well developed nations need to reduce by 75%, so as to allow poor people and poor nations to develop better living standards (in “soft path” ways).

Where there is a will, there is a way. Laudato Si is a tremendously great inspiration for that.
 
The entire world’s population needs to reduce on average by about 50% – which means we in the U.S. and other well developed nations need to reduce by 75%, so as to allow poor people and poor nations to develop better living standards (in “soft path” ways).
Replacing hydrocarbons with unreliable, subsidized “green” energy will require millions of acres of land for wind turbines, solar panels and transmission lines – plus hundreds of millions of tons of steel, copper, concrete, fiberglass and rare earth minerals for all those facilities.

Do you support delaying wind, solar and transmission projects for years, to protect the rights and property of local communities and private landowners? Or do you favor regulatory edicts and eminent domain actions, so that government can seize people’s property and expedite construction of these projects?

Do you support opening US public lands for renewed exploration and development, so that we can produce these raw materials and create American jobs? Or do you intend to keep US lands off limits, and force us to depend on imports for renewable energy, too?

Do you support relaxing environmental study, endangered species and other laws, to fast-track approval of these projects, despite their obvious impacts on wildlife and habitats? Or do you want them subjected to the same rules that have stymied thousands of other energy projects, so that renewable energy projects cannot be built, either – and we have massive blackouts?

I don’t know what “soft path” ways are but…

Over 1.5 billion people in Africa, Asia and Latin America still do not have electricity, for even a light bulb or tiny refrigerator. Millions die every year from diseases that would be largely eradicated with electricity for refrigeration, sanitation, modern hospitals, and industries that generate greater health and prosperity.

How can you justify telling other countries that they have to “reduce” by 50%…because YOU are worried about global warming? Doesn’t that violate their most basic human rights to improved living standards, and even life itself?
 
Replacing hydrocarbons with unreliable, subsidized “green” energy will require millions of acres of land for wind turbines, solar panels and transmission lines – plus hundreds of millions of tons of steel, copper, concrete, fiberglass and rare earth minerals for all those facilities.

Do you support delaying wind, solar and transmission projects for years, to protect the rights and property of local communities and private landowners? Or do you favor regulatory edicts and eminent domain actions, so that government can seize people’s property and expedite construction of these projects?
You don’t know of what you speak. Wind generators are all over the place, on farms and ranches, etc., and farming and ranching can be done right up to their base.

Solar panels take of a bit of space on people’s roofs – space they were NOT USING 🙂 Even the birds perch higher on our roof than the solar panels, so they aren’t even taking up bird space.

The ideal would be for as many people as possible to get off the grid and really be free of monopolies, and the powerful, bloated interests that seek to do us wrong.

While there may be some upfront costs and environmental harms in producing solar panels and wind generators that hardy compares at all with the terrific harms from extracting fossil fuels for ongoing use day in and day out of our lives, processing & the cancer alleys, combustion and the local to global harms and deaths from that, and waste disposal, spills and leaks. I would hope that as people go around in their ICE cars they occasionally think of the people and nature that gets harmed by that, and resolve to drive less, turn off engines in drive-thrus, keep tires inflated and engines tuned, hypermile (slow starts and deceleration), run multiple errands, move closer to work/shops/schools on next move, and the 100 other things they can do to reduce their harm.

A little girl in Mississippi torn up by the harms to birds from the BP spill said, “Have you ever heard of the solar spill?”
Over 1.5 billion people in Africa, Asia and Latin America still do not have electricity, for even a light bulb or tiny refrigerator. Millions die every year from diseases that would be largely eradicated with electricity for refrigeration, sanitation, modern hospitals, and industries that generate greater health and prosperity.
How can you justify telling other countries that they have to “reduce” by 50%…because YOU are worried about global warming? Doesn’t that violate their most basic human rights to improved living standards, and even life itself?
I guess you didn’t read my post, or didn’t understand what I meant. The rich folks (typical Americans and Europeans, etc) will have to reduce at least 75% in to compensate for the poor increasing their GHG emissions, since they will have to use more energy & resources to live better, more healthy lives. I hope that’s a bit clearer.

We can also help them with cleaner technology and a path that is less harmful to health and the environment than the dirty path we industrialized people took over the past 300 yrs.

For instance, I contribute to solar lights for poor African villages that don’t have electricity, so their children can study at night, etc.

Don’t forget that AGW is more greatly harming the poor of the world – as Pope Francis so rightly points out – and we owe it to them to reduce our GHG emissions AND help them in whatever ways we can…at least with all the money we save from becoming energy/resource efficient/conservative and going on alt energy. 🙂

Where there is a will and a good heart, there is a way… God will help us and bless us along the way!
 
I hate to tell you, but that’s life. There’s a problem – something harmful to life and/or well-being – people work to solve it, and the solutions create other problems, which people work to solve, and the solutions to the solutions create other problems, which people work to solve, and so on as long as we live. Or, as my husband says, that’s why they write “Rest in Peace” on our gravestones 🙂

In other words, the only real paradise is Heaven.

However, while here on earth I think God expects us to be working diligently with good heart and mind and all the talents He has bestowed on the problems He allows us to confront. We should not be standing on the sidelines refusing to solve problems and blocking and dissuading others from solving problems or criticizing them for doing so, but also pitch in to solve them.

Actually I’m pretty thrilled with your links – solar is surging up a lot more than I had imagined, and that’s good. We need to keep up the progress AND solve the various side problems that may arise. (I think Texas has a pretty good arrangement – we do pay the utility company enough to cover the grid costs.)

And remember the most important principle is REDUCE, then REUSE, then RECYCLE, then go on alt energy when feasible to cover one’s greatly REDUCED energy needs.
 
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