Is Praying in Tongues During Consecration an Abuse?

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Praying in tongues during the consecration is an abuse, and it’s also very likely fake! People don’t apply a gift of the Holy Spirit when it goes against the laws and doctrines of the Church!
 
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Mysty101:
Praying in tongues, which is far more common than Speaking in tongues is not translatable. It is just using our voice, but not our mind to praise or pray (usually for healing).
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So does that mean it’s not a known language, but more like gibberish?
 
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Genesis315:
So does that mean it’s not a known language, but more like gibberish?
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Romans 8 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.
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It seemed you were distinguishing between “Praying” and “Speaking” in tongues, to wit, that the repetitive “na-na-na-na-o-wa-o-wa” type of tongue speech was “praying with my spirit but an unproductive mind”, therefore it was not really “speaking” and could be proclaimed aloud at the elevation of the Eucharist.
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You are oversimplifying what I said. A spontaneous outburst of praise might be considered wrong, but it is not the same as speaking in tongues.
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  1. “Speaking in tongues” may or may not be spontaneous. Doing it aloud during the consecration and elevation is wrong. Doing it silently is fine.
  2. “Praying in tongues” i.e., with an unproductive mind, is more often spontaneous. Doing it aloud during the consecration and elevation is also wrong. Doing it silently is still fine.
However, in explaining this kind of praying in tongues in 1 Cor 14:13-16, Paul describes it with the words “speak” and “say,” which therefore puts “praying in tongues” on the same level as every other kind of tongue-speech; to wit, it is still speech and if used in worship it must be interpreted, so according to the rules of the Roman liturgy it can not be used aloud during the Mass.
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Again—where is your documentation for this interpretation? Do you attend an authentic CCR group?
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In this thread I have already given you, several times, the scripture passages that clearly equate both “praying in tongues” and “singing in tongues” with speech, and that clearly state that all such speech, when used in public worship (inside or outside of Mass) MUST be both limited and interpreted. Thus far you continue to ask for some kind of official indorsement for these already-clearly stated scriptures (is the Apostle Paul himself good enough?).

DIRECT QUESTION: Do you believe that “Praying in tongues” is NOT speech? If you say “not speech,” what is your authority for that? Has the Congregation for Divine Worship or any other Vatican Congregation indorsed that view? Weblinks to official statements will be appreciated.
 
Dear Mysty101,

Yes, actually, that verse was quoted and that’s what my question was about. It says the Holy Spirit intercedes with groans that words cannot express. So these groans are audible to us and come out of someone’s mouth? Does it sound like gibberish language or is it just kind of groaning?
 
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Mysty101:
Romans 8 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.
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Clarify for me, please: Is this referring to something going on in the realm of Heaven, between the Holy Spirit and the Father? Or is the Holy Spirit taking possession of our vocal cords to emit wordless sounds?
According to the Roman missal, the latter is still not a permitted outburst during the consecration and elevation; the worshipper who prays in this manner during Mass is required to do so silently.
 
I never got Charismatic anything… I never thought there was a reason for us to co-opt Pentecostalism. Our faith is transcendental, sublime, and ethereal enough without needing to go beyond it. Plus, whenever one enters the realm of the supernatural, you need to tread lightly… the mysticism of the Holy Spirit is oftentimes perverted by the mysteriousness of the Evil One.
 
Nan S:
In this thread I have already given you, several times, the scripture passages that clearly equate both “praying in tongues” and “singing in tongues” with speech, and that clearly state that all such speech, when used in public worship (inside or outside of Mass) MUST be both limited and interpreted. Thus far you continue to ask for some kind of official indorsement for these already-clearly stated scriptures (is the Apostle Paul himself good enough?)…
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As I have said many times, Paul was speaking to the Church in Corinth—this is your interpretation of how it applies today.
I am asking for documentation of your interpretation.
Weblinks to official statements will be appreciated
 
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BillyT92679:
I never got Charismatic anything… I never thought there was a reason for us to co-opt Pentecostalism. Our faith is transcendental, sublime, and ethereal enough without needing to go beyond it. Plus, whenever one enters the realm of the supernatural, you need to tread lightly… the mysticism of the Holy Spirit is oftentimes perverted by the mysteriousness of the Evil One.
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Be careful what you say. Remember CCR is an approved movement of the Catholic Church. I am speaking of authentic CCR, with solid authentic Catholic leadership.

JP II was very supportive, and I understand Pope Benedict XVI is also a supporter.
 
I agree that much of it sounds like gibberish. But I thought I’d throw in a couple of stories, if that’s okay.

There was one story I heard about an American tongues talker who was visiting Italy. He felt impressed by God to up to a certain man (a stranger, a native of Italy). He went up to this guy and started speaking in tongues. He had no idea what he was saying. It ended up that he was speaking Italian to this guy, telling him something that needed to hear.

One woman, when she spoke in tongues for the first time, spoke in Chinese (she didn’t know the language at all) and even WROTE some in Chinese.

Those are neat examples, aren’t they? I like stories like that.
 
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Mysty101:
Be careful what you say. Remember CCR is an approved movement of the Catholic Church. I am speaking of authentic CCR, with solid authentic Catholic leadership.

JP II was very supportive, and I understand Pope Benedict XVI is also a supporter.
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I’m being quite careful. Although I don’t care for it, I don’t deny its validity. I just don’t see its efficacy. This is not me denying the New Mass for example; which I am NOT free to do. It’s merely me not giving an imprimatur to a way to celebrate the New Mass. The Church can rule tomorrow it’s illicit and you would then have to cease participation in it.

I think that you should tread lightly when you do engage the supernatural though. The Evil One masks himself quite while, and what one might think is the Holy Spirit could be something else entirely.
 
I love the New Mass as much as I love the Tridentine Rite and the Divine Liturgy; wanted to make sure I didn’t come across as a rad trad there.
 
Well…I always say the words of St. Thomas, “My Lord and My God” …sometimes I do continue silently praying in tongues…
 
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BillyT92679:
It’s merely me not giving an imprimatur to a way to celebrate the New Mass. The Church can rule tomorrow it’s illicit and you would then have to cease participation in it.
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And you have the authority to give an Imprimatur?
I think that you should tread lightly when you do engage the supernatural though. The Evil One masks himself quite while, and what one might think is the Holy Spirit could be something else entirely
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As I said many, many times—I only attend authentic CCR functions, in an authentic prayer group, belonging to an authentic Conference, diocesean organization, national conference, and international movement–approved by Rome. Perhaps you might want to have your opinions discerned by authentic discernment.
 
OK It is certainly an abuse for a celebrant to invite the congregation to praise in tongues in an NO Mass. Is there any option given to Charismatics? Would any authentic authority forbid this?

The only time I have ever wittnessed this is in Presentation BVM in Philadelphia. Msgr Walsh, the Pastor was present, as was Fr Tom Di Lorenzo of Boston. I think I will take their word over a private interpretation of St Paul’s instruction to Corinth.

Also, if there is a spontaneous outburst, what would be done? I doubt one should make a scene during the Mass—"Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm. "

Charismatic style worship is a wonderful exuberant worship. Praise is tthe most neglected form of prayer—God does not need our praise–He WANTS it, because He loves us, and it is very beneficial to us.

So just continue worrying about whether or not this form of praise is allowed.

I personally will not worry about it. But if it did bother me, I would not attend a Charismatic Mass, but before you walk out–remember if you do not attend a valid Mass, you commit a mortal sin—the person who prayed in tongues did not.
 
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Mysty101:
As I have said many times, Paul was speaking to the Church in Corinth—this is your interpretation of how it applies today.
I am asking for documentation of your interpretation.
Weblinks to official statements will be appreciated
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This being a weekday midnight in a particularly grueling week that isn’t over yet, I can’t get all my stuff together tonight. Last night after I logged off here I returned to work and fell asleep at the keyboard (snnzzzzz…:sleep: drooolll …ick). This will have to do for now:
  1. Paul’s instruction was not limited to the church in Corinth, as you suggest. In Eph 5:18-20 Paul gives the Ephesians instruction about how to praise the Lord, using terminology that makes speaking and singing synonymous, and is consistent with his instruction in 1 Cor 14:13-16: [to the Ephesians] “… be filled with the Spirit, addressing (speaking to) one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart, always and for everything giving thanks in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God the Father.” Further, Paul gives a substantially similar message about praise to the Colossians in Col 3:16-17.
  2. In yet another apparent coincidence which shows the consistency and universality of Paul’s teaching, across the board, the very next section in all three letters (Colossians, Ephesians, and Corinthians) is a consistent teaching about husbands and wives.
  3. Finally, I would not be so quick to suggest we could write off 1st Corinthians as applicable only to the church of Corinth at that time. After all, it is in 1 Cor 11:17-34 that we get our beautiful teaching on the Eucharist and its meaning, which our church abides by to this day. The rest is hisrory.
  4. Can you send me a sample of your documentatin? Does CCA have a website I can look to or stay away from?
 
Nan S:
  1. Can you send me a sample of your documentatin? Does CCA have a website I can look to or stay away from?
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It’s CCR–Catholic Charismatic Renewal . I have listed links many times–Start here (I just lost my post trying to cut & paste links)
ccc.garg.com/
Finally, I would not be so quick to suggest we could write off 1st Corinthians as applicable only to the church of Corinth at that time
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I am not suggesting that you write off Paul’s teaching, -Just your interpretation of it. You reject Romans 8 which is a teaching on prayer in general, yet claim a literal interpretation for his instructions to the Church in Corinth is valid. Not too long ago Catholics were forbidden self-interpretation of scripture–and for good reason. We are still cautioned against self-interpretation without guidance. I have that guidance through legitimate approved Conferences and organizations who answer to authentic Catholic leadership (Parish, Diocesean, National & International level) I am asking for you to validate your interpretation.

What about the teachings on slaves? May I conclude that I may keep slaves—buy & sell human flesh?
 
I was told by a priest who has taught at our seminary for 15 years that praying in tongues violates the rule of unaccompanied prayers during the Eucharistic prayers including during the elevation of the host and wine.

It is strictly prohibited. Even a bishop was told that he violated the rule when he asked the congregation to pray with him during the elevation.

The Eucharistic Minister, i.e. the priest must be unaccompanied during this time - no other prayers, no music, zilch. He alone prays.
 
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bob:
The Eucharistic Minister, i.e. the priest must be unaccompanied during this time - no other prayers, no music, zilch. He alone prays.
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I agree. It seems pretty clear in the Instruction.

And to Mysty101’s earlier question…
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Mysty101:
Is there any option given to Charismatics?
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…I suspect there is no such exception. Charismatics are still bound to the Latin Rite (thankfully there is no Charismatic Rite).
 
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