Is Praying in Tongues During Consecration an Abuse?

[MikeB]

I would like to say up front that I didnot read all the posts so my views may have already been posted. As I read the early posts I was struck by the similar attitudes that I see from non-Catholics who can prove “by the Bible” that we cannot call any man father, etc. I am in the charismatic movement but I donot speak in tongues. I know many who do and maybe there are some who force it but not a single one is not fully committed to their Catholic faith. I would suggest that anyone who is not in the movement to slow down and not judge. I have read (or heard) that JP II spoke in tongues. Maybe check with your local parishes to see if there is any groups available and just talk to them.

 

[BillyT92679]

Mysty101:

And you have the authority to give an Imprimatur?

As I said many, many times—I only attend authentic CCR functions, in an authentic prayer group, belonging to an authentic Conference, diocesean organization, national conference, and international movement–approved by Rome. Perhaps you might want to have your opinions discerned by authentic discernment.

I meant that in a merely rhetorical way, no need to read anything into it that isn’t there.

And, to imply that I don’t have authentic discernment is a calloused response.

 

[BillyT92679]

Mysty101:

And you have the authority to give an Imprimatur?

As I said many, many times—I only attend authentic CCR functions, in an authentic prayer group, belonging to an authentic Conference, diocesean organization, national conference, and international movement–approved by Rome. Perhaps you might want to have your opinions discerned by authentic discernment.

I meant it in a genuine sense, don’t read anything into it that isn’t already there, please.

I take offense at your implying that I don’t have authentic discernment; I most certainly do.

 

[Mysty101]

BillyT92679:

I meant it in a genuine sense, don’t read anything into it that isn’t already there, please.

I take offense at your implying that I don’t have authentic discernment; I most certainly do.

I did not intend any disrespect, but I do not know you or the validity of your discernment. I would ask anyone for validation of their statement.

 

[Mysty101]

msproule:

I agree. It seems pretty clear in the Instruction.

And to Mysty101’s earlier question…

Originally Posted by Mysty101

Is there any option given to Charismatics?

…I suspect there is no such exception. Charismatics are still bound to the Latin Rite (thankfully there is no Charismatic Rite).

You suspect not, but although I do agree that this praise tongue is probably an abuse, I have personally seen it, and have heard other reports, but have not heard any reprimands.

And I do wish to emphesize the fact that I do not agree with the praise tongue during Mass. I am speculating that it may not be as serious an abuse as those members of the congregation who say the words of consecration with the Priest. (I am sure most of us have had this experience)

 

[bob]

MikeB.:

…I have read (or heard) that JP II spoke in tongues. …

Whatever it is, the document Redemptionis Sacramentum was issued by Pope John Paul II to stop all the abuses in the Liturgy.

So, even if JPII spoke in tongues, he clearly forbade any “joint” prayers during the Eucharistic prayers.

It must be noted that:

1. Redemptionis Sacramentum came after
   “ECCLESIA DE EUCHARISTIA” or
   “ON THE EUCHARIST IN ITS RELATIONSHIP TO THE CHURCH”
2. It came just before the Year of the Eucharist Oct 2004 - Oct 2005.

JPII clearly wanted to emphasise proper celebration of the eucharist to be in place and abuses stopped before and/or during the Year of the Eucharist.

 

[Nan_S]

Mysty101:

I am not suggesting that you write off Paul’s teaching, -Just your interpretation of it. You reject Romans 8 which is a teaching on prayer in general, yet claim a literal interpretation for his instructions to the Church in Corinth is valid. Not too long ago Catholics were forbidden self-interpretation of scripture–and for good reason.

When did you get the idea I reject Romans 8? If you look through the earlier posts, I agreed with you on Romans. You: “Praying in tongues, which is far more common than Speaking in tongues is not translatable. It is just using our voice, but not our mind to praise or pray (usually for healing). Romans 8:26-27” Me: “The common [mono-syllabic] tongue-speech that so many charismatics embrace, and non-charismatics find a distracting annoyance, is more properly described in Romans 8:26, the Spirit’s inexpressible groanings.”

I not only fully ACCEPT Romans 8 as applicable to the whole church both when originally written and today, I also fully accept 1st Corinthians as applicable to the whole church both when originally written and today. This is especially because Paul’s message to the Corinthians is directly paralleled by his teaching to the Colossians and the Ephesians. He was rather like the traveling speakers we hear today who present the same message everywhere, tailored to the local audiences.

You are the one who selectively rejected the ONLY part of sacred scriptures that gives detailed instruction about the proper use of tongues.

“Remember this was an instruction for the Church in Corinth. Paul was speaking to the Corinthians. You cannot apply this specific statement to Charismatics today.”

Why not?

I will follow the weblinks you gave me for CCA. I hope I don’t find an attitude that echoes what I’m hearing from you - dismissing Holy Scripture in favor of “authentic” new teaching.

“What about the teachings on slaves? May I conclude that I may keep slaves—buy & sell human flesh?”

No, because although the institution is recognized in scripture, scripture opposes it:

1st Corinthians 7:21-23 "Were you a slave when called? Never mind. But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity. For he who was called in the Lord as a slave is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a slave of Christ. You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.

{Oops - I forgot. Paul was speaking to the Church in Corinth, not to us. How about this instead?}

Paul’s Letter to Philemon 1:15-18 “Perhaps this is why he [Onesimus] was parted from you for a while, that you might have him back for ever, no longer as a slave but more than a slave, as a beloved brother, especially to me but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord. So if you consider me your partner, receive him as you would receive me.”

Colossians 3:11 “Here there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free man, but Christ is all, and in all.”

Galatians 3:25-29 “But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.”

 

[Nan_S]

MikeB.:

I would like to say up front that I didnot read all the posts so my views may have already been posted. As I read the early posts I was struck by the similar attitudes that I see from non-Catholics who can prove “by the Bible” that we cannot call any man father, etc.

Mike,
Just so you don’t have to go back through all those posts, I am most definitely a hard-core, conservative Catholic. I quote scripture a lot because for many years I have defended the Catholic church directly through scripture. (I was in the military; we couldn’t discuss politics so we hit each other over the head with our bibles instead.)

I don’t speak in tongues, either. I sing in tongues. It’s rather like Mel Tillis, the country-music singer; he sings because he was unable to speak clearly. You might try it yourself.

Nan

 

[Mysty101]

Nan S:

I will follow the weblinks you gave me for CCA. I hope I don’t find an attitude that echoes what I’m hearing from you - dismissing Holy Scripture in favor of “authentic” new teaching.

As I said, it iis CCR (Catholic Charismatic renewal.)
And again, I am not dismissing Holy Scripture, but your interpretation of it. If you accept that there is a difference between speaking in tongues and a Prayer Tongue, Corinthians does not apply. I reject your interpretation over that of the Priests and leaders I know. You really need to stop the judgement and accusations

{Oops - I forgot. Paul was speaking to the Church in Corinth, not to us. How about this instead?}

…and sarcasm

 

[Mysty101]

Nan S:

Mike,
I don’t speak in tongues, either. I sing in tongues. It’s rather like Mel Tillis, the country-music singer; he sings because he was unable to speak clearly. You might try it yourself.

I never saw your answer to this question----Are you connected with any authentic CCR group? If your only experience with a Charismatic group is the protestant group you mentioned, you are really not qualified to explain CCR.

 

[Nan_S]

Mysty101:

I never saw your answer to this question----Are you connected with any authentic CCR group? If your only experience with a Charismatic group is the protestant group you mentioned, you are really not qualified to explain CCR.

Re-read post #32.

Getting more specific, the Catholic charismatics I associate with are headquartered in Alexandria, LA, and hold retreats at Maryhill Renewal Center in Pineville, LA. You should come. The praying in tongues - and speaking in tongues - and singing in tongues, is really awesome, especially during the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament!

Mysty101:

As I said, it iis CCR (Catholic Charismatic renewal.) And again, I am not dismissing Holy Scripture, but your interpretation of it. If you accept that there is a difference between speaking in tongues and a Prayer Tongue, Corinthians does not apply. I reject your interpretation over that of the Priests and leaders I know.

And that “iis” a typo. Of course the acronym is CCR.
You have free will, given to you by God, and are free to believe that scripture does not apply to your situation.
I’ll get back to you on 1st Corinthians after following the weblinks you provided. Thus far, you are the only person whom I have ever known to claim that 1st Corinthians doesn’t apply to praying in tongues.

 

[Mysty101]

Nan S:

Re-read post #32.
.

I did read it, which is why I am questioning your authority is speaking for CCR. You say you “went on a retreat” with the Catholics, but go more frequently with the protestants.

And that “iis” a typo. Of course the acronym is CCR.

I did question it, since you used it twice, and the r is not even close to the a on the keyboard—it does not seem that you are very familiar with the movement

Thus far, you are the only person whom I have ever known to claim that 1st Corinthians doesn’t apply to praying in tongues

Another reason I feel you are not involved in CCR. Almost every prayer team prays in tongues for healing, and the group praises in tongues during the prayer meeting with no interpretation. As I said, I have never heard authentic Speaking in tongues (when the listener hears in his own tongue which is different than the language spoken)

The praying in tongues - and speaking in tongues - and singing in tongues, is really awesome, especially during the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament!

And all these tongues are interpreted?

Here is athe link the the SI Conference website.
siconference.com/

 

[Mysty101]

PS And if you can’t get off your high horse, this discussion is over.

First it was the tsk, tsk and raspberries

Then

{Oops - I forgot. Paul was speaking to the Church in Corinth, not to us. How about this instead?}

then

And that “iis” a typo. Of course the acronym is CCR.

quoting an obvious typo, because you made a mistake (a for r is not a typo, they are no where close)

 

[Nan_S]

Misty101,

The one thing on which I take issue with you is your claim that 1st Corinthians does NOT apply today, specifically the definition of tongues (speaking=praying=singing) and how it is used in public and private worship (public - interpreted or silent, private - no restrictions).

You defer to your CCR leaders for this. As I live elsewhere, I had to rely on your weblinks. They did not bear fruit. Either they heavily relied on 1 Cor to define and instruct on tongue use, or they opposed tongues in general as works of the self or the devil. None of them supported your position that 1 Cor does not apply today.

Finally, while the CCR description of a Charismatic Prayer Meeting is consistent between sources, and faithful to 1 Cor, there is no source that describes a valid Charismatic “Mass” with tongue-speech allowed. We have the Tridentine Mass and the Novus Ordo Mass, but no Charismatic Mass.

To your other question: In truth, I really don’t know if the Catholic charismatics in the Diocese of Alexandria, LA, who meet at Maryhill Renewal Center, are officially affiliated with CCR. However, as my bishop in the Diocese of Shreveport, LA, does not support the charismatic movement, the Maryhill group in the next diocese has the only Catholic charismatics within a several-hours drive of me.

Where you live, there may be plenty of CCR meetings to choose from. Down here, the choice is Maryhill or nothing.

Comment continued on next post.

**What is the Content of a Charismatic Prayer Meeting?
**Answer: A gathering song; opening prayer; time of praise and worship; singing; prophecy (God inspiring someone to speak); tongues (in song, praise, or prophecy); interpretation of tongues; ministering the Gifts of the Spirit to the people gathered in healing, miracles, word of knowledge, etc. (see 1 Cor. 12); scripture reading; teaching; testimony; sharing. (see 1 Cor. 14:26-33) ccc.garg.com

**Speaking in Tongues - A Meditation
**Speaking in tongues is one of the gifts of the Spirit given for the common good: 1 Cor. 12:7-11
Speaking in tongues is communicating with God. Rom. 8:26-27; 1 Cor. 14:2
Communicating with God through the gift of tongues is edifying to oneself. 1 Cor. 14:4
*Some gifts may appeal to you, some may make sense, others may not make sense. However, you have to be careful that you aren’t picking and chosing. 1 Thes. 5:19-20; 1 Cor. 14:39-40; 1 Cor. 14:32 *ccc.garg.com

**What does the Church teach about speaking in tongues?
**The earliest and most authoritative official Catholic statement on speaking in tongues is the Apostle Paul’s treatment of the subject in 1st *Corinthians, chapter 14:1-33, 36-40. *www.cin.org

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal by Dave Armstrong
I sometimes see Catholics reciting the Rosary all through Mass. This is as contrary to the active participation in the Mass which Vatican II stresses as is someone praying in tongues at Mass
I don’t believe that most Catholic charismatics believe that the gift of tongues is for everyone (1 Cor 12:11,30). This is why I have never felt “inferior” or “second-class” in the least, and I have moved in many charismatic circles. I also am pretty sure that much of what passes for tongues is merely people’s self-willed utterances. Otherwise, I don’t think it would be so nearly-universal among charismatics. There is an argument about the existence of a “prayer tongue” apart from the gifts, but I don’t want to pursue that rabbit trail at this point. Each person can only examine themselves as to whether their own tongues-speaking is from the Spirit or psychologically- or emotionally-driven, from the will: mere self-produced "babbling. falcon.ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ285.HTM

The Catholic Pentecostal Movement
Q: Someone recently attended our prayer meeting and spoke out as a prophecy a word glorifying Satan. He could not be quieted and most of the people attending the meeting were quite upset. What can we do when this type of situation arises?
A: It seems that some kind of evil spirit was attempting to disrupt the prayer meeting. Many prayer groups have had similar occurrences. The group’s leaders should do everything possible to comfort and reassure the other members of the group. One of the leaders should publicly explain what has happened and encourage the people not to be fearful or upset. It is especially important if there are newcomers in the group to let them know that these occurrences are not the norm. olrl.org/doctrine/Charismatic_Movement.shtml

 

[Nan_S]

Continued from previous post.

Next, I found other CCR groups and official Catholic sites. They also heavily used 1 Cor to define tongues and their proper use, but no sources anywhere spoke against the use of 1 Cor. My reliance on and use of scripture is supported.

I suggest you consider questioning your local CCR leaders to determine by what authority they teach that Paul’s instructions in 1 Cor do not also apply to you. Please talk to your priest directly, rather than whomever is on the Catholic Charismatic Center forum.

Having said that, I hereby post a selection of these other references. I now consider this thread closed to further discussion. 2 Tim 2:23-26.

Yours in Christ,
Nan

**Harold Cohen, S.J, as posted by the CCR group “InUnity”:
**What can we expect when we are “baptized with the Holy Spirit”? We can expect an immediate or gradual experience of deeper union with God, our loving Father and with Jesus, our Lord and Friend; a fresh appreciation of Scripture; a greater love for others and a desire for Christian fellowship; the fuller presence in our lives of the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience and more (Gal 5:22-23); the receptions of one or more of the Charismatic gifts of the Spirit such as discernment, service, prophecy, praying in tongues, healing (1 Cor 12-14). This gift of a new fullness of the Holy Spirit is, I believe, the grace of our age. “Ask and it will be given to you!” www.in-unity.org

**Townsville Catholic Charismatic Renewal, known as Yuna Shalom, Diocese of Townsville, Australia
**Catholic Charismatic Renewal began with a few Catholics in the United States who had a deep experience of the Holy Spirit while on a weekend retreat in 1967. They experienced the power of the Spirit and a new, personal relationship with Jesus, and experienced spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12) as a reality in their lives as ordinary Catholics. Catholic Charismatic Renewal spread rapidly, coming to Australia in 1969. St Paul writes about prayer meetings in 1 Cor 14:26: When you assemble, one has a psalm, another some instruction to give, still another a revelation to share, one speaks in a tongue, another interprets. [www.tsv.catholic.org.au](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/www.tsv.catholic.org.au)
The above is also at Catholic Charismatic Renewal, Archdiocese of Melbourne, Australia www.ccr.org.au

**Catechism of The Catholic Church
***800 ***Charisms are to be accepted with gratitude by the person who receives them and by all members of the Church as well. They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ, provided they really are genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and are used in full conformity with authentic promptings of this same Spirit, that is, in keeping with charity, the true measure of all charisms. **[Cf. 1 Cor 13.]
**801 It is in this sense that discernment of charisms is always necessary. No charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church’s shepherds. “Their office [is] not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good,” *[Lumen Gentium 12; cf. Lumen Gentium 30; 1 Thess 5:12,19-21; John Paul II, Christifideles Laici,24.] so that all the diverse and complementary charisms work together “for the common good.” *[1 Cor 12:7] www.vatican.va

**The Catholic Encyclopedia:
**What today purports to be the “gift of tongues” is a fair reproduction of Corinthian glossolaly, and shows the need there was in the primitive Church of the Apostle’s counsel to do all things “decently, and according to order” (1 Cor 14:40). Faithful adherence to the text of Sacred Scripture makes it obligatory to reject those opinions which turn the charism of tongues into little more than infantile babbling (Eichhorn, Schmidt, Neander), incoherent exclamations (Meyer), pythonic utterances (Wiseler), or prophetic demonstrations of the archaic kind (see I King 19:20, 24). The unalloyed charism was as much an exercise of the intelligence as of the emotions. Languages or dialects, now kainais (Mark 16:17) for their present purpose, and now spontaneously borrowed by the conservative Hebrew from Gentile foreigners (eteroglossois, cheilesin eteron, I Corinthians 14:21), were used as never before. But they were understood even by those who used them. Most Latin commentators have believed the contrary, but the ancient Greeks, St. Cyril of Alexandria, Theodoret, and others who were nearer the scene, agree to it and the testimony of the texts as above studied seems to bear them out. www.newadvent.org

 

[Mysty101]

Nan,

You seem to be ignoring some of my posts in favor of your cafeteria Charismatics.

Your interpretation of 1 cor is very protestant, which is the reason I questioned your affiliation.

Would you accept as criticism of traditional Catholic worship someone who was reporting events in an Episcopalian service? This is how I see criticism of CCR by those who attend protestant service.

Nan:

The praying in tongues - and speaking in tongues - and singing in tongues, is really awesome, especially during the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament

This is what I originally responded

And all these tongues are interpreted?

I would also like to know if this was authentic CCR.

 

[Mysty101]

PS the date of the Catholic Enc is 1917. CCR (approved and supported by JPII) started about 1970 or so.

 

[Mysty101]

This was from one of the websites I posted

**

Different Kinds of Tongues

Part Two

by Bob Van Cleef

**Praying in Tongues **

Praying in tongues is communicating with God. When we do not know how to pray or what to pray, praying in tongues allows the Spirit in us to do the praying for us. The Holy Spirit knows what God wants in every circumstance. By yielding control of our tongues to the Holy Spirit and allowing Him to pray through us, we are allowing Him to pray for what is really needed, not what we think is needed.

(Rom 8:26-27) Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. [27] Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Those who are called to intercession often experience ``groanings which cannot be uttered.’’ They experience the sorrow and pain of the Spirit. They not only cry, but often will sob in deep anguish, as they get a taste of the sorrow and pain God feels in the circumstances in which they are called to intercede. There is nothing wrong, or unusual in this. History shows many of the Saints having the same type of experiences. This is something between you and God and this is a place where the gift of tongues becomes a great blessing.

(1 Cor 14:2) For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. Communicating with God through the gift of tongues builds us up. It helps us to reach out in the Spirit to God and to draw closer to Him. Tongues helps us to build our relationship with God.

Diverse Tongues

(Isa 28:11) For with stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people. As we grow in openness to the Holy Spirit, the Spirit will modify or add to our spiritual vocabulary. It is not uncommon for individuals, based on their calling, to develop multiple prayer languages for various types of prayer. A language of praise appears to be the most common, but languages for intercession and deliverance are also common. Many of those who spend long hours in prayer that includes extended periods of time praying in tongues have heard their language change. They know, at the time of change, the reason for the change.

For example, in the midst of a large gatherings, where we were all gathered together singing in praise, I have often heard my tongue shift from the normal praise language to one of intercession, normally with an understanding of who or what I am interceding for, but without necessarily knowing why the intercessory prayer is needed.

**

 

[Nan_S]

SuZ,

Please finish reading the whole post.

I tried to explain that I don’t know whether my Catholic Charismatics in Alexandria are CCR. But they’re the ONLY Catholic charismatics around for literally HUNDREDS of miles. If they’re not CCR, I don’t have any other options.

As to joining my girlfriend at the Protestant group:

1. I can’t skip Catholic Mass that same weekend, or I’d be committing a mortal sin.
2. I go for two reasons: to spend a weekend with a dear friend whom I otherwise never get the chance to see anymore, and to proselytize in favor of the Catholic Church

As to my arguments sounding “Protestant,” well that is probably because I have been spending the last 25 years becoming an amateur “expert” in using the Holy Bible to justify the Catholic Church and her doctrines. When defending the Catholic CHurch to Protestants, I’ve got to start on their level…

Let’s wrap up this thread on a charitable note.
Perhaps there is another topic out there that we can agree on more.

Nan

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

BillyT92679:

I think that you should tread lightly when you do engage the supernatural though. The Evil One masks himself quite while, and what one might think is the Holy Spirit could be something else entirely.

Amen.

And, Nan S, very impressive research and development there…:tiphat:
I wish we had a smiley who salutes!