Is proper Scripture notation important?

[jmcrae]

I just ran into a post where the Arabic number eleven was used to signify the Roman number two. (11 was used to signify II.)

This was in the context of indicating the Second Book of Samuel - the person wrote “11 Samuel.” There is no such book in the Bible.

There is also no such person as “Pope John Paul 11.” (Yet.)

I see this all the time. Do other people consider this to be very sloppy, or am I the only one?

It’s not illegible; I understood what was meant, but it reduces my estimation of the writer’s intelligence when I see things like that - maybe I’m just too picky?

 

[Kay_Cee]

The person who posted that way was probably unaware of the error.

But I understand how it bothers you. I just hate it when posters:

Confuse “accept” and “except”

Confuse “affect” and “effect”

Confuse “your” and “you’re” (or “its” and “it’s” or “there” and “their” and “they’re”)

Use “could of” instead of “could’ve”

Use “try and” instead of “try to” (Think about that one, and you’ll see what I mean!)

 

[jmcrae]

The person who posted that way was probably unaware of the error.

But I understand how it bothers you. I just hate it when posters:

Confuse “accept” and “except”

Confuse “affect” and “effect”

Confuse “your” and “you’re” (or “its” and “it’s” or “there” and “their” and “they’re”)

Use “could of” instead of “could’ve”

Use “try and” instead of “try to” (Think about that one, and you’ll see what I mean!)

I’m glad I’m not the only one who feels this way.

 

[Kay_Cee]

I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks that way either!

Here’s another beef of mine: words that do not exist! Some examples are: “alot” “infact” and “eachother.”

I can understand splitting an infinitive. I can understand ending a sentence with a preposition. I can certainly understand making a typo. What I can’t abide is mistakes a third grader shouldn’t make. Isn’t grammar taught in school anymore?

 

[Quaere_Verum]

I get annoyed with similar errors; however, I’m sure I make many of my own for whatever reason. One of our friends is so humble in spite of his many God given talents, one of which is intelligence, that I’ve become more aware of my arrogance and more tolerant of other people’s mistakes.

 

[Kay_Cee]

I get annoyed with similar errors; however, I’m sure I make many of my own for whatever reason. One of our friends is so humble in spite of his many God given talents, one of which is intelligence, that I’ve become more aware of my arrogance and more tolerant of other people’s mistakes.

It isn’t just a matter of tolerance. Of course I put up with it. Do you see me venting about it in threads where it occurs?

This thread, however, is about such errors.

We have an obligation to communicate with each other. If we’re going to throw the rules of grammar, punctuation, and spelling out the window in the name of tolerance, we’d be creating a situation similar to what happened at Babel. How well would we communicate with each other then?

 

[lak611]

I just ran into a post where the Arabic number eleven was used to signify the Roman number two. (11 was used to signify II.)

This was in the context of indicating the Second Book of Samuel - the person wrote “11 Samuel.” There is no such book in the Bible.

There is also no such person as “Pope John Paul 11.” (Yet.)

I see this all the time. Do other people consider this to be very sloppy, or am I the only one?

It’s not illegible; I understood what was meant, but it reduces my estimation of the writer’s intelligence when I see things like that - maybe I’m just too picky?

I dislike this sloppiness too. I put much of the blame on lax attitudes regarding computers, especially because of the speed with which one is able to transmit messages using a computer. When I learned how to type using a typewriter, correction of errors was time consuming. I put a lot of effort into typing something that would be error-free the first time and proofread my composition.

“Spell-check” is both a blessing and a curse. Sometimes the use of “spell-check” will catch mistakes; but in other cases, particularly when one uses technical terminology, the “spell-check” considers those words to be “errors.” I almost never use “spell-check” because I used to work at a chemical company and became exasperated by the “spell-check” program finding ten “errors” when all I did was type chemical names. Luckily, I still have the habit of proofreading my compositions before I send them. Many of the younger people here on the Fora probably never used a typewriter; therefore, they may not proofread as carefully, since they do not know how difficult it was to correct “typos” on typewriters.

 

[jmcrae]

I get annoyed with similar errors; however, I’m sure I make many of my own for whatever reason. One of our friends is so humble in spite of his many God given talents, one of which is intelligence, that I’ve become more aware of my arrogance and more tolerant of other people’s mistakes.

I;m quite certain that I make errors, too - one way you can tell it’s me on the Internet is that I often change tenses or numbers half way through a sentence, and I often don’t catch it until I’ve already sent it.

I’m sure that annoys people, and I do my best to avoid it, but if someone hadn’t gracefully pointed out one time that this violates the rules of English grammar, I’m sure I never would have noticed or realized that I was doing it.

What I’m hoping is that the person who needs to know the information that I place in my first post on this thread will find it, and quietly correct herself or himself in the future.

I think starting a thread like this is a better idea than jumping into the middle of the thread where the error occurred, and driving it off topic with a discussion of the error that was made.

 

[Kay_Cee]

One reason it’s so important to use the proper word is that using the incorrect one can lead to so much misunderstanding.

I’ve seen posts in which the writer confuses *accept *and except.

*Accept *means to take or receive.

*Except, *when used as a verb, means to exclude.

So if someone writes, “We except your application to our club,” it doesn’t mean you have been asked to join. It means the exact opposite–your application has been excluded!

Similarily, if somone posts, “The Catholic Church excepts praying to Mary and the saints,” he has actually said the Church excludes such practice. This can be very confusing to non-Catholics.

 

[Quaere_Verum]

Understood!

Those of you who have expertise in semantics, syntax, and suprasegmentals please feel free to PM me whenever necessary to correct my use of the language. It’s always a gift to improve myself.

 

[lak611]

One reason it’s so important to use the proper word is that using the incorrect one can lead to so much misunderstanding.

I’ve seen posts in which the writer confuses *accept *and except.

*Accept *means to take or receive.

*Except, *when used as a verb, means to exclude.

So if someone writes, “We except your application to our club,” it doesn’t mean you have been asked to join. It means the exact opposite–your application has been excluded!

Similarily, if somone posts, “The Catholic Church excepts praying to Mary and the saints,” he has actually said the Church excludes such practice. This can be very confusing to non-Catholics.

Another thing one must keep is mind is the fact the many people on these fora are not speakers of English as a first language. I have not tried typing something in a language other than English and seeing how the web translation tools work. I have noticed when I have clicked on a link to translate something from another language into English that the translation frequently leaves much to be desired. We ought to be careful in our use of the English language so we do not add to the confusion of people who do not speak English as a first language.

 

[Hellisreal]

My mother’s native language is not English.

I somehow have learned to have a patient ear for all people of all languages because of this.

I was offended by the tone of this thread, and hope you all realize that being just like you is not something Jesus gives a hoot about.

 

[Kay_Cee]

My mother’s native language is not English.

I somehow have learned to have a patient ear for all people of all languages because of this.

I was offended by the tone of this thread, and hope you all realize that being just like you is not something Jesus gives a hoot about.

I’m sorry you’re offended, but what we’re trying to say is that good communication is important.

Of course we understand some posters here are not native speakers. Of course we tolerate errors. That is not the point.

If we throw out all the rules of grammar, punctuation, and spelling, we will not communicate well. How can we spread the gospel then?

 

[jmcrae]

Actually, those who use English as a second language are usually better at spelling and grammar than many native speakers. A lot of native speakers, especially young people, write and spell the same way they talk, without bothering to proofread to make sure their writing can be understood.

Most of the major disasters in the world (Chernoble, Challenger, etc.) were caused because someone had to guess at what someone else had intended to write, and based critical systems on their best guess of what the report was driving at, rather than on clear information.

The Hubble Telescope had to be recalibrated by astronauts in outer space at a cost of millions of dollars, because someone wrote “inches” where he meant to write “centimeters.” I am sure he thought, “Oh, well - no big deal - they will understand what I meant because they know we are working in the metric system” so he didn’t bother to correct his notation. The result, of course, was very embarrassing, and very expensive.

The Gospel message is even more important than any of these things. That’s why it’s really important to communicate as clearly as possible.

 

[Pug]

…am I the only one? …it reduces my estimation of the writer’s intelligence when I see things like that

Many people make assessments about others using surface information. Do you want to do this action now that you are aware that you are doing it?

I can share that my mental state is reflected in both my typing and my spelling. The sicker I am, the worse they become. So you are gathering real information, at least in my case. Well, not quite. If I realize I am sick, then I will spend about four times as long proof-reading, so perhaps this masks the problem.

For example, when I am ill, I begin to have trouble with homonyms. It is unfamiliar territory to have trouble with them, but, oh well. C’est la vie. If I make those errors, you are quite correct that my IQ would test lower on a standardized test.

 

[jmcrae]

Many people make assessments about others using surface information. Do you want to do this action now that you are aware that you are doing it?

My point is that I am probably not the only one who is making this kind of judgement. It’s also important to realize that, on the Internet, surface information is all we have to go on.

I guess the bottom line is, do we want to be taken seriously? Do we want people to be able to read what we write without having to guess at the meaning? Do we want to convince others of our point of view?

Nobody out there really cares if we’re sick, or if English is our second, third, or fourth language, or if the cat/dog/baby is dancing on the keyboard while we’re trying to type.

What they care about is whether they can understand and follow the arguments that we are offering to them. If they can’t, they’ll move on. If they can, then we have a chance to evangelize.

 

[Pug]

My point is that I am probably not the only one who is making this kind of judgement. It’s also important to realize that, on the Internet, surface information is all we have to go on.

Yes. I meant my previous post to sound like I was agreeing with your first sentence. I also agree that in any situation, Internet or no, surface information is likely to be used. Typing is what we see in place of clothing, perhaps.

I guess the bottom line is, do we want to be taken seriously? Do we want people to be able to read what we write without having to guess at the meaning? Do we want to convince others of our point of view?

It depends. You seem to be thinking of action with a view to evangelize. If your writing is for that reason, then make it as clean as you can. Well, up to a point. My life experience says that sounding too academic or using large words can turn certain people off. I’ve seen it happen merely by using the subjunctive tense. So be what your audience needs. If that requires using IM and failing to capitalize your “i” at the beginning of a sentence, I can see why a person might consider adopting such things. Once you’ve heard for the hundreth time, “Oh, you are so smart,” you realize that people now hear you in different ways than they do others, and this probably affects which things they are willing to glean from you. Many people search for God with their heart…

Nobody out there really cares if we’re sick, or if English is our second, third, or fourth language, or if the cat/dog/baby is dancing on the keyboard while we’re trying to type.

You care. You care if some person you are evangelizing is sick. If you don’t, then you are less effective. But I realize that this is not what you had in mind. You mean it from the other direction. You mean someone who is willing to listen to your argument up to a point, but will give up if it is difficult or confusing or a waste of time. You are right. They will give up on you regardless of the reason for your poor typing and grammar.

Just do what your audience needs. In most any case, citing 2 Samuel 2:9 is better than citing 11 Sam2.9.

My previous post drifted in a direction that you didn’t have in mind. Drifting back again, your audience can tell if you dislike how they cite scripture, at least if talking face to face. But I think now that you only meant how a teacher cites it, not any random person. So I think this paragraph is irrelevant.

 

[jmcrae]

Yes. I meant my previous post to sound like I was agreeing with your first sentence. I also agree that in any situation, Internet or no, surface information is likely to be used. Typing is what we see in place of clothing, perhaps.

Ah - gotcha.

It depends. You seem to be thinking of action with a view to evangelize. If your writing is for that reason, then make it as clean as you can. Well, up to a point. My life experience says that sounding too academic or using large words can turn certain people off.

That’s true. I once observed a Catholic on an Evangelical forum using a lot of Latin terms, and the person he was attempting to evangelize finally said, “Do you not speak English? I have no idea what you are trying to say - I can’t read Italian.” So, definitely, we have to use language that our intended audience can understand - and our attempts to come off as “more intelligent than thou” can certainly backfire, especially if our audience is even less well-educated than we had first suspected.

If that requires using IM and failing to capitalize your “i” at the beginning of a sentence, I can see why a person might consider adopting such things.

There is a certain context where that might work. Being aware of where we are is also an important aspect of good communication. Keep in mind that once you post to the Forum, you cannot control where your words will go next. Not everyone will tell you that they are downloading your post to a CD, or printing it off for a scrapbook.

Once you’ve heard for the hundreth time, “Oh, you are so smart,” you realize that people now hear you in different ways than they do others, and this probably affects which things they are willing to glean from you.

So far, this has never been a problem for me.

Many people search for God with their heart…

Yes, they do. But the heart is directed by the mind, and whatever the mind can’t understand will never make it as far as the heart.

 

[lak611]

My mother’s native language is not English.

I somehow have learned to have a patient ear for all people of all languages because of this.

I was offended by the tone of this thread, and hope you all realize that being just like you is not something Jesus gives a hoot about.

Most of the sloppy posts that I have seen have been made by people whose native language is English. If we do not use proper English, we may confuse people who speak English as a second language. Those of us who are native speakers of English need to do our best to present our words correctly for the people who are trying to understand us. Let’s do our best to help these folks!

 

[porthos11]

I just ran into a post where the Arabic number eleven was used to signify the Roman number two. (11 was used to signify II.)

This was in the context of indicating the Second Book of Samuel - the person wrote “11 Samuel.” There is no such book in the Bible.

There is also no such person as “Pope John Paul 11.” (Yet.)

I see this all the time. Do other people consider this to be very sloppy, or am I the only one?

It’s not illegible; I understood what was meant, but it reduces my estimation of the writer’s intelligence when I see things like that - maybe I’m just too picky?

No you’re not. It’s sloppy writing and you have the right to justified indignation

There is a world of difference between 11 and II.

And I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea of ignoring proper spelling and grammar in the name of “tolerance.” If one wants to communicate one’s ideas, especially to evangelize, spelling and grammar are essential.

And, yes, many ESL speakers actually write better than many native-speakers.