Is Protestantism a good thing? (Or “Why I Kissed Ecumenism Goodbye”)

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Peter_Jericho

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Hi NCRF participants. I’m not going to add additional questions, but I want to say a couple things about the question in the thread title before people start answering it.
  1. Answering the question in the negative (i.e. saying “Protestantism isn’t a good thing”) doesn’t mean doubting anyone’s good intentions. It also doesn’t mean that there’s no such thing as good Protestantism, but only that it is the exception to the rule.
  2. I’m not asking whether Protestants have the fullness of the faith. I’m coming from the position that they don’t (since I’m Catholic) – which I realize that they’ll disagree with.
Edited to add: that last point automatically provides one reason to say that Protestantism isn’t a good thing, inasmuch as if Protestantism did not exist, there would be more people who would opt for Catholicism. (But I don’t drawn a conclusion based on that one reason alone.)
 
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Some parts good, some parts bad. I don’t think there’s a simple answer that tackles all of the theological, political, cultural and aesthetic dimensions that encompasses Protestantism.
 
Loaded question.

Is it good that fellow Christians are deprived of sanctifying grace received in the sacraments? Nope.

Certain aspects of it are good. They are often terrific evangelizers. Excellent at introducing non-Christians to Christianity with a simplistic approach. They don’t hand you a RCIA schedule that starts in 4 months and dismiss you, they tell you Jesus loves you and to have child like faith and start living it now. Some things Catholics can learn from them/it.
 
No, Protestantism is not a good thing. It is a rejection of authority; as is kissing Ecumenism goodbye.
 
Hi Tis_Bearself. I was literally just this morning noticing that you’re still here. (Not that there was any reason that you wouldn’t still be here. But I’ve hardly been here at all for over 2 years, so I had no idea who was still here and who wasn’t.)
Tis_Bearself said:
Easy answer: No
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Can I infer from the way you put your response that you are considering saying more? If so, consider me interested.
 
Christ calls us all to be one. He also established one church. Those who break away from his church and fracture into a bunch of other churches, each church doing what it wants and making it up as it goes along, aren’t doing what Christ wants.

It’s not a topic that needs a long speech.
 
I think that, generally, these threads asking what Catholics think of other religions are somewhat self-fulfilling. Members of any religion are going to believe that other religions are in error–if they did not, they would change religions. So the questions devolves into asking whether it is a good idea to follow an erroneous religion.

Ecumenism, on the other hand, is an entirely different story. There could be many reasons to support ecumenism, while simultaneously believing that other religions are in error.
 
Honest question here:

I can understand why you would say that Protestantism is not a good thing. But why would it follow that ecumenism isn’t a good thing either ?
 
JM3 said:
It is a rejection of authority
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Is Protestantism a good thing? No, it is not a good thing that the Church is fractured due to doctrinal disagreement. The goal has always been to have one Church that agrees on doctrine. That being said, the Church has fractured numerous times along doctrinal lines throughout its entire history, so I don’t think you can lay the blame for this at the feet of the Reformation.

Ecumenism is a good thing when it results in the clarification of doctrine so that the various streams of Christianity can speak the same language when discussing doctrine. It is a bad thing when it is used to arrive at a lowest common denominator for supposed unity at the expense of the truth as revealed in scripture.
JM3 said:
It is a rejection of authority
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No it isn’t. The Reformation did not reject authority, it was a reaction to what the Reformers saw as the abuse of authority.
 
I guess we aren’t living the same history. The reformers didn’t set out to start a new church, nor did I suggest such a thing.
Protestantism was started and bankrolled for secular reasons against the authority of the Church.
 
If by “Protestantism” you mean the existence of baptized persons and congregations who are not in full communion with Holy Mother Church, I don’t know what is done by asking if this is “a good thing.” It is a fact of life for the foreseeable future.

What about ecumenism? What is the alternative? No grounds for any unity among those who have been baptized but are outside the Church and those who are in it, even when it is obvious that a good many of us are in the denomination we are in by forces of fate that had nothing to do with us?

Some unity is better than none, provided the unity doesn’t require politely ignoring our differences concerning what the truth is. Good ecumenism takes some courage. The better it is, the more courage it takes. It is better than not even trying to find a common ground of charity between separated Christians.
 
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Being Protestant myself, though strongly pro-Catholic, I will answer somewhat midway between yes and no. The fact that Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and others broke away from the Church I find troublesome. But when I look at their reasons for doing so I am drawn to believe they were somewhat justified at the time. I don’t care for the Protestantism I view today and attend Mass exclusive to all other liturgies. But I believe Protestantism serves a great purpose, something akin to what the late Dr. Marcus Borg (an Episcopal convert from Lutheranism) said about atheism. He said, “I like atheists because they are very good at exposing bad religion”. It’s not much of a stretch to apply this to Protestantism, but the reverse could be said with any two religious persuasions plugged into the phrase.

This much I can say; intellectually speaking, opposing forces are good in the sense in that they force us to think, to digest information, to be aware of other points of view, and to study further what we believe. Protestants and Catholics, in my opinion, are stronger spiritually when they engage in civil discussion and debate and continue to learn all they can about every side of any issue.
 
CelticWarlord said:
This much I can say; intellectually speaking, opposing forces are good in the sense in that they force us to think, to digest information, to be aware of other points of view, and to study further what we believe.
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I agree with your angle here. I would say that the existence of Protestant religions, also being Christian, have made the Catholic Church better.

It reminds me of the cod and catfish story.
 
At least on paper, the point of ecumenism is to reconcile all separated bodies of Christians into the unity of the Catholic Church, which would by definition eliminate the defining errors of Protestantism (in practice, it seems to me that often religious indifferentism reigns).

Protestantism is objectively contrary to God’s will, since He wills all Christians to be one (cf. John 17:11) in the one Church He entrusted to the care of Peter and His successors (cf. John 21:15-17).

That being said, Protestants for the most part administer baptism and teach faith in Christ, so they can bring those means of salvation (which are objectively good and properly belong to the Catholic Church) to those in good faith who might otherwise not have access to these things. God can bring good out of evil.
 
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Where to begin 🙂
Genesis315 said:
At least on paper, the point of ecumenism is to reconcile all separated bodies of Christians into the unity of the Catholic Church, which would by definition eliminate the defining errors of Protestantism (in practice, it seems to me that often religious indifferentism reigns).

This is just 100 rabbit holes to chase down 🙂

Protestantism is objectively contrary to God’s will, since He wills all Christians to be one (cf. John 17:11) in the one Church He entrusted to the care of Peter and His successors (cf. John 21:15-17).

Is this your own opinion or are you saying this verse has been dogmatically defined. If you honestly believe this how do you explain Mark 9:38-41?

That being said, Protestants for the most part administer baptism and teach faith in Christ, **so they can bring those means of salvation **(which are objectively good and properly belong to the Catholic Church) to those in good faith who might otherwise not have access to these things. God can bring good out of evil.
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Again, is this your personal theology? If so how do you reconcile your understanding of salvation from Ephesians 2:8?
 
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It is not a good thing that Protestantism came into being, but it exists, it gives no indication of going away anytime soon (though the “mainline”, traditional Protestant denominations are hemorrhaging members), and God can and does draw good from it. I always try to keep in mind Our Lord’s admonition not to bother the man who was casting out demons in His Name — “whoever is not against us is for us”.

To many kinds of people, it is far more attractive, because at least with the evangelical denominations, it is easier to join, and there is not a lot of theology to learn — just accept Jesus as your Lord and personal Saviour, be baptized, read your Bible, and “fellowship” (it’s a noun, not a verb) with other Christians. The hardest part is making the lifestyle changes that some would find difficult — abandoning alcohol, drugs, pornography, and so on. For other people, this poses no problem.
 
Lenten_ashes said:
Is it good that fellow Christians are deprived of sanctifying grace received in the sacraments? Nope
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I agree, but that is why I think “Protestantism” is a good thing. People have access to baptism, the Church, Scripture and other “elements of salvation” through Protestant Churches.
 
I disagree with your comment about RCIA. In my experience (maybe my disagreement with you is completely antectodal) people are encouraged to come to Mass before RCIA to grow in the faith. I can’t imagine a Priest or Deacon just dismissing somebody after handing them an RCIA schedule.
 
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