Is Protestantism a good thing? (Or “Why I Kissed Ecumenism Goodbye”)

[Peter_Jericho]

I was going to tag people in this comment, but seeing that there are now 11 of you who have commented (and however many more following) let me instead say please consider yourselves all tagged.

To PetraG’s point, which I think is on most other people’s minds as well, I do think my question is worth asking, although I don’t/didn’t expect that everyone will agree with me about that.

Actually, the original phrasing of the question, namely “Is Protestantism a force for good?” was influenced by the title of a debate from about a decade ago, “Is the Catholic Church A Force For Good In The World?” ( You may well wonder why I changed “a force for good” to the more pedestrian “a good thing”. That was a last minute change, made simply because I learned that a thread title last summer employed the phrase “a force for good” in a similar question and I figured I could enrich the forum more if a chose different words. )

I don’t want to get too deeply into talking about that debate, but I think it’s worth noting the basic assumption that even listeners who already made up their minds that the Catholic Church is not what She claims to be, might still be interested in hearing arguments for and against the idea that She is “a force for good”.

Likewise here I don’t believe there’s an obvious answer. As I said in the OP, if Protestantism did not exist, there would be more people who would opt for Catholicism … but I would not conclude that Protestantism isn’t a good thing on that basis alone. Vatican II’s Decree on Ecumenism (which I will assume you accept) even tells us that “the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation.”

It’s also worth noting that there are different levels of discourse. Statements like Protestantism “is a rejection of authority” (as distinct from “entails a rejection of authority”) are, in my experience, par for the course on this forum; but I wouldn’t expect to hear such a statement, or a comparable one about Catholicism in a debate like the aforementioned.

There’s definitely more that I want to say, but I want to alternate between speaking and silently listening to what others have to say … and also I want to be more disciplined than I used to be, in terms of limiting how much time I spend on this forum.

 

[TK421]

There are two contradictory statements in one post.

1. Is Protestantism a good thing
2. Why I kissed ecumenism goodbye.

The 2nd one is obligatory for the Church. It has to be ecumenical towards other faith groups within Christianity and outside of Christianity. So there is no latitude for dissent there.

Back to #1: is Protestantism a good thing?

Objectively, no of course. Jesus prays for unity among Christians, and Protestantism is the opposite of that

But, we also know that God makes good come from evil circumstances, and I believe the rupture between Catholic and Protestants that has continued since the 1500s is no exception. I see three major goods:

A) It has forced the Church to clarify itself on its teachings and provide deeper levels to her teachings.
B) It has forced the Church to purify itself on intentions
C) It has forced the Church to strengthen itself on those doctrines which are distinctly Catholic.

Basically, I don’t believe an evil thing happens without God being able to produce good through it. I think the metaphor of pruning branches to bear even more fruit applies to the Church universally in addition to each individual.

 

[Peter_Jericho]

Thanks for that clarification, Tis_Bearself. (When I read your original “Easy answer: No” I wasn’t sure if I should take this as something like, I’ll give you the easy answer for now, possibly I’ll say more later.)

Anyhow, thank you for participating on the thread, and I’m sorry if you don’t like the discussion.

 

[steve-b]

Hi NCRF participants. I’m not going to add additional questions, but I want to say a couple things about the question in the thread title before people start answering it.

1. Answering the question in the negative (i.e. saying “Protestantism isn’t a good thing”) doesn’t mean doubting anyone’s good intentions. It also doesn’t mean that there’s no such thing as good Protestantism, but only that it is the exception to the rule.
2. I’m not asking whether Protestants have the fullness of the faith. I’m coming from the position that they don’t (since I’m Catholic) – which I realize that they’ll disagree with.

Edited to add: that last point automatically provides one reason to say that Protestantism isn’t a good thing, inasmuch as if Protestantism did not exist, there would be more people who would opt for Catholicism. (But I don’t drawn a conclusion based on that one reason alone.)

technically speaking, Protestantism is one of history’s great heresies. The Great Heresies | Catholic Answers

SO

Historically speaking, given all that we’ve seen happen in history, If Protestantism wasn’t here, or hadn’t shown up, it would be some other heresy that showed up or will, show up.

AND To clarify

Jesus wants perfect unity John 17:20-23 RSVCE - “I do not pray for these only, but - Bible Gateway no division what-so-ever

AND since

The HS only speaks what He takes from Jesus John 16:13-15 RSVCE - When the Spirit of truth comes, he will - Bible Gateway

Then,

no one can say that the HS lead them into their own invented church, nor division from the Catholic Church, nor to remain divided from the Catholic Church.

SATAN

is behind all that temptation to ( sift / dissent / divide FROM what Jesus established) NOT God.

 

[Peter_Jericho]

BTW, I’m a little surprised to see only one comment here from a Protestant (the one from CelticWarlord). I bring this up because I want to make it clear that Protestant comments are completely welcome.

(Of course, it is possible that there simply aren’t very many Protestant posters here these days. I don’t really know, not having been around much in the last couple years.)

 

[TC3033]

I’m a little surprised to see only one comment here from a Protestant

It’s a trap thread. Mainly why I haven’t touched it…

I bring this up because I want to make it clear that Protestant comments are completely welcome.

Eh…

 

[AlNg]

Should we kiss goodbye to charitable relations with non-Catholic Christians?
No. I think it is a lot better to work together in charity instead of burning people at the stake for heretical beliefs.
I have many friends and acquaintances of different religious persuasions and I don’t see any need to kiss them goodbye.

 

[gohjedrek]

I am high-church anglican and I find myself agreeing with TK421 with regard to the ecumenical and unity approach of the church, in that it has led to important changes to the church. For instance, RC church has established Anglicanorum Coetibus, enabling anglicans to be received into full Catholic communion with the RC church.

http://www.vatican.va/content/bened...n-xvi_apc_20091104_anglicanorum-coetibus.html

There are of course, many bad part about protestantism. The emphasis on sola scriptura in protestantism has metamorphize into individual private interpretation of the scriptures, which in turn generated numerous beliefs that deviated from catholicity such as denying Oral Tradition, church hierarchy.

With regard to homeschooldad, I can confirm the statement that being a protestant is in many ways attractive as it appeals to modernity such as going to a church that downplays liturgy and focus on contemporary worship songs in a non-church setting such as auditorium and homes. In addition, the scripture is being generally read without historical context and they don’t really need to know how the early church fathers think. Last but not least, based on experience, the protestant community has put in a lot of effort in evangelism/teaching outwardly, this in itself has attracted many to join the church.

 

[Thom18]

If we consider to be “good” all that Jesus prayed for, it seems that Protestantism is the antithesis of “unity”, and is therefore not-good on that front.

It seems obvious that the individuals can be good just as Catholics can, but that their churches are defective in promoting gospel truth as they do not have the Promise of perfection and perseverance (if we would refer to withstanding the gates of Hell as perseverance) as His bride.

 

[steve-b]

With regard to homeschooldad, I can confirm the statement that being a protestant is in many ways attractive as it appeals to modernity such as going to a church that downplays liturgy and focus on contemporary worship songs in a non-church setting such as auditorium and homes. In addition, the scripture is being generally read without historical context and they don’t really need to know how the early church fathers think Last but not least, based on experience, the protestant community has put in a lot of effort in evangelism/teaching outwardly, this in itself has attracted many to join the church.

Q:​

Re: the OP’s question,

If one remains Protestant, and I’ll add, regardless of stripe, ( what about forgiveness of sin for THEM? )

---

I ask that question

because

"…
A Catholic (excerpted from The Forgiveness of Sins | Catholic Answers) ALL emphasis mine

1. seeks forgiveness the way Christ intended. (IOW obedience to Jesus teaching )
2. by confessing to a priest, the Catholic learns a lesson in humility, which is avoided when one confesses only through private prayer.
3. the Catholic receives sacramental graces the non-Catholic doesn’t get; through the sacrament of penance sins are forgiven and graces are obtained.
4. the Catholic is assured that his sins are forgiven; he does not have to rely on a subjective “feeling.”
5. Lastly, the Catholic can also obtain sound advice on avoiding sin in the future.

Just before Christ left this world, he gave the apostles special authority to make God’s forgiveness present to all people, and the whole Christian world accepted this, until just a few centuries ago. If there is an “invention” here, it is not the sacrament of penance, but the notion that the sacramental forgiveness of sins is not to be found in the Bible or in early Christian history."

So

How does a Protestant know their sins are forgiven? (doing things THEIR way)

 

[OddBird]

My tradition’s answer would be : because of the general absolution given by the minister at the end of the penitential rite during every Sunday service.

 

[steve-b]

Easy answer as Martian Luther discovered the Catholic church was currupted

Jesus never promised a sinless Church. That’s why Jesus instituted the sacraments, and in particular, that’s why He instituted the sacrament of reconciliation.

Luther in his day, was one of the corrupt one’s in the Church. To my knowledge, unless you know differently, he wasn’t sorry for what he did.

 

[steve-b]

My tradition’s answer would be : because of the general absolution given by the minister at the end of the penitential rite during every Sunday service.

Q’s:​

This is a, Protestant tradition, and a Protestant minister you speak of?

By what authority does your minister give absolution?

 

[OddBird]

Yes. Reformed.

My church would say “by the authority of the Apostles”. In fact, the words by which a minister is consecrated here begin with : “In the tradition of the Apostles, and with the help of the Holy Spirit…”

Of course, it has a different understanding from the Catholic church of what apostolic succession actually means. It would say, to sum it up, that it holds apostolic succession because, from its point of view, it lives in faithfulness to the Apostles’ teaching. It sees it, if you will, as a matter of spirit rather than letter.

 

[steve-b]

Yes. Reformed.

OK,

when (date) and by whom (person 's name) established your particular sect?

OddBird:

My church would say “by the authority of the Apostles”. In fact, the words by which a minister is consecrated here begin with : “In the tradition of the Apostles, and with the help of the Holy Spirit…”

The apostles established the one and only Church Jesus instituted in the first cnetury. The Catholic Church, a name used in writing, from the first century by disciples and bishops, ordained by the apostles.

Acts 9:31 the church throughout all ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης τῆς

Translation:
ἐκκλησία (ecclesia) = church
καθ’ (kata)= according to ,
ὅλης (holos)= whole / all / complete / universal ,
τῆς (ho)= the ,
= the Kataholos Church = the Catholic Church.

AND

We see that name from the 1st century, in writing, from direct disciples of John. As in, Bp Ignatius, and Bp Polycarp, contemporaries of each other and disciples of John. Both use the name Catholic Church in their writings

AND

Jesus specifically said there is to be ZERO division from what He established John 17:20-23 RSVCE - “I do not pray for these only, but - Bible Gateway

Protestantism in all its forms, began as a revolt from the Catholic Church in the 16th century.

since the HS only takes from Jesus and passes that information on, John 16:12-14 RSVCE - “I have yet many things to say to - Bible Gateway THEN, no one can say the HS led them into division from the Catholic Church, or keep them in division from the Catholic Church.

OddBird:

Of course, it has a different understanding from the Catholic church of what apostolic succession actually means. It would say, to sum it up, that it holds apostolic succession because, from its point of view, it lives in faithfulness to the Apostles’ teaching. It sees it, if you will, as a matter of spirit rather than letter.

We see from Jesus quote above, He demands zero division from His Church. As in Those who divide don’t follow Jesus or the HS Rom 16:17-18 RSVCE - Final Instructions - I appeal to you, - Bible Gateway… but another spirit. Rm 16:20 then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. Whose feet will Satan be crushed under? The Church of Rome.

So

Who is responsible for all division / schism / sects / heresies we see? We lay it ALL to SATAN

Satan is behind ALL the division from Our Lord’s Church

Lk 22:
31 “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you,[d] that he might sift you[e] like wheat, 32 but I have prayed for you [ σοῦ singular ] Simon, that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.”

 

[Dovekin]

when (date) and by whom (person 's name) established your particular sect?

25 March of year 0. (This a mythic date, in a year that does not exist, when Mary was visited by he Angel Gabriel and filled with the Holy Spirit.)

The apostles established the one and only Church Jesus instituted in the first cnetury.

God established and instituted The Church by sending the Holy Spirit.

Protestantism in all its forms began with the baptisms of the reformers and their ancestors and descendants, going back to Jesus.

Satan is behind ALL the division from Our Lord’s Church.

Indeed! Satan is behind your effort to divide Oddbird from us, instead of recognizing her as a sister of Jesus, and a child of our one Father. Unless you are affirming that unity?

 

[Mishakel]

the Catholic is assured that his sins are forgiven; he does not have to rely on a subjective “feeling.”

Paul discuses this very thing in 2 Corinthians 7: 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Paul is saying that if we feel sorry for our sins and that leads to repentance it was a good thing we had this grief. Worldly grief or sorrow is feeling bad but does not lead to repentance so it only results in death.

This “subjective feeling” you describe really isn’t explaining your position or idea clearly. Are you saying because a man repents to another man about their sin they can feel good knowing they are forgiven yet a man who confesses their sins to God is unable to know their sins are forgiven? I need a little clarity on what you mean.

How does a Protestant know their sins are forgiven? (doing things THEIR way)

The part you put about doing things their way again has me a little confused. Confessing sins to God isn’t something Protestants created.

1 John 1: 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

He and Him are alluding to God himself. The text doesn’t say if we confess our sins to another man God will forgive us. It says if we confess.

God himself tells us he will remember our sins no more in Hebrews 10: 16

“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Isn’t this the answer to your question? God tells us he will never remember our sins if we confess and believe Jesus died for our sin. God proclaimed it so this is how we know we are forgiven.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

when (date) and by whom (person 's name) established your particular sect?

25 March of year 0. (This a mythic date, in a year that does not exist, when Mary was visited by he Angel Gabriel and filled with the Holy Spirit.)

My question was asking the Protestant when was their particular sect of Protestantism started and who started it?

The apostles established the one and only Church Jesus instituted in the first cnetury.

Dovekin:

God established and instituted The Church by sending the Holy Spirit.

Are you intending to respond to me or the one I responded to?

Dovekin:

Protestantism in all its forms began with the baptisms of the reformers and their ancestors and descendants, going back to Jesus.

No Protestant sect, has apostolic succession nor apostolic authority.

Satan is behind ALL the division from Our Lord’s Church.

Dovekin:

Indeed! Satan is behind your effort to divide Oddbird from us, instead of recognizing her as a sister of Jesus, and a child of our one Father. Unless you are affirming that unity?

I give information properly referenced.

Protestantism is one of histories great heresies The Great Heresies | Catholic Answers

What does Paul say to Bp Titus, about those in heresy ?

HERE

Titus 3:10-11 “As for a man who is factious αἱρετικὸν , after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted ἐξέστραπται and sinful; he is self-condemned αὐτοκατάκριτος .”

So

factious αἱρετικὸν = disposed to form sects, sectarian, heretical, schismatic, factious, a follower of false doctrine

THAT said

what is it that Paul is saying that you object to?

 

[Mishakel]

Protestantism is one of histories great heresies

You should have finished the sentence “according to Catholicism”

Titus 3:10-11 “As for a man who is factious αἱρετικὸν , after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted ἐξέστραπται and sinful; he is self-condemned αὐτοκατάκριτος .”

So

factious αἱρετικὸν = disposed to form sects, sectarian, heretical, schismatic, factious, a follower of false doctrine

THAT said

what is it that Paul is saying that you object to?

Paul is talking about the law but you didn’t include that part:

9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.

You’ll have to give more detail on your position again. Do you believe a person who embraces scripture, which both Catholicism and Protestantism believe to be theopneustos, is embracing a false doctrine or is guilty of heresy?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

the Catholic is assured that his sins are forgiven; he does not have to rely on a subjective “feeling.”

Paul discuses this very thing in 2 Corinthians 7: 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Paul is saying that if we feel sorry for our sins and that leads to repentance it was a good thing we had this grief. Worldly grief or sorrow is feeling bad but does not lead to repentance so it only results in death.

This “subjective feeling” you describe really isn’t explaining your position or idea clearly. Are you saying because a man repents to another man about their sin they can feel good knowing they are forgiven yet a man who confesses their sins to God is unable to know their sins are forgiven? I need a little clarity on what you mean.

Jesus said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (John 20:22–23).

Notice that Jesus is not simply commissioning the apostles to preach about God’s forgiveness. He is not saying, “Go tell everyone that when God forgives men’s sins, they’re forgiven.” In using the second person plural you , Jesus is telling his apostles that by the power of the Holy Spirit he has given them the power to forgive and retain the sins of men.…

How does a Protestant know their sins are forgiven? (doing things THEIR way)

Mishakel:

The part you put about doing things their way again has me a little confused. Confessing sins to God isn’t something Protestants created.

1 John 1: 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

AND

1 Jn 5:15
And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him.

HOWEVER,

16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God[a] will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.

THAT

Is why Jesus gave us the sacrament of reconciliation…to rid ourselves of mortal sin