Is Protestantism a good thing? (Or “Why I Kissed Ecumenism Goodbye”)

[OddBird]

he is self-condemned αὐτοκατάκριτος .”

This is one of the reasons my church deals with heresy as it does. It considers that if there is a penalty for it, then the person who makes a heretic choice has already drawn it to himself.

He’s actually, already told us in advance what will happen in the end. When asked, Jesus , looking ahead in time till the end, said Few are saved ergo everybody else isn’t. Ergo everybody else goes to Hell. And THAT comes from the one who judges ALL

There was a famous conversation between the Reformed theologian Karl Bath and cardinal von Balthasar, who were good friends. Von Balthasar reportedly said “I believe in hell, but I wouldn’t surprised to learn that hell is empty”. And Karl Barth replied : “I believe in hell, but if there is anyone in there, it is Christ Himself, who took our penalty on Himself.”

This is where my church stands on that matter.

By the way, the parable of the wheat and weeds is Christ telling us what will happen at the end of times. My tradition reads it as a sign of hope rather than of fear, because it sees in it the promise of our own “internal weeds” being destroyed, and of us being totally conformed to the Kingdom of God.

 

[Grizzly1]

Most of us here are Catholics so of course we are going to say that Catholicism is better than Protestantism.

On the other hand, in the absence of Catholicism, Protestantism is still far better than atheism, Hinduism, Buddhism, satanism, occultism, etc. I wouldn’t say its bad per se, but compared to Catholicism, not as good.

If a drug addict reforms himself by coming to Christ through Protestantism instead of Catholicism then he is still far better off than before, and I believe most Catholics would be happy for him.

 

[Maximian]

Protestantism represents a move away from the truth. Ecumenism represents an attempt to accommodate the truth with that move away from it.

Neither can possibly be a good thing, even if sometimes pursued from good motives.

The general upshot of ecumenism has been a protestantisation of catholicism, with deleterious consequences for people’s faith.

 

[gohjedrek]

Ah nice to meet you as well, most protestants are evangelicals and it is far easier to find communities within the catholic church and protestant evangelicals than the non-reformed protestants.

I used to be an evangelical protestant and there was a strong emphasis being placed on community, fellowship and bible teaching on friday of the week. The issue I realised is that apart from friday and the typical sunday service, there is little to no other involvement with God. I have posed the question to evangelicals, which many answer that they do some form of private study of the bible during their free time, to be in constant involvement with God.

If one were to go through a really deep emotional/spiritual turmoil in the middle of the week, then where else to seek comfort from, ordinary church layman have no reason at all, to respond to you and more often than not, it is there where you seek worldly pleasure to make up for that emotional/spiritual turmoil.

I discovered the catholic church prior to the anglo-catholic church, it was there that I was captured by the beauty of the daily scriptural readings where there is daily teaching in the church available for all and constant involvement with God, where I will witness people putting work aside to come to the church in the middle of the day. If I were to objectively compare the two, the latter approach is essentially more logical in being constantly enriched in the scriptures, prayer and the breaking of the bread in the early church (Acts 2.42).

With regard to emotional/spiritual turmoil in the middle of the week, going to the catholic church to experience the liturgy soothes my heart. It is there where I realised God cared for my struggles any day of the week, if I am willing to take the time out to go to the church.

The practice of the daily church attendance was also to be found in anglo-catholic church, albeit far less end up attending the anglo-catholic church on weekdays. I am anglo-catholic for now, largely due to the process of discerning the doctrines/dogmas of the Catholic Church and I am also hoping to visit the Anglican Ordinariate (Anglicanorum Coetibus) soon.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Common Joe’s are not going to understand the Mass. We need to do a better job of initiation imo.

 

[TNMan]

I don’t know if God permits evil so a greater good will come. Sin doesn’t enhance the Gospel.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

If one can’t prove they have been validly baptized, one is then conditionally baptized.

Yes, with the understanding that proof most often is limited to a piece of paper. There was a point where progressives thought they could change the formula to “In the name of the Creator, and the Redeemer, and the Sanctifier”. Unless someone in the family (or the individual, if they were old enough to remember the baptism) can say that formula (or something similar) was used (or that ecclesial community was notorious for it), the presumption is that it was not.

True…

 

[steve-b]

Are people finding Jesus and being baptized into Christ? It would be better if the Body remained one, but

yeah there can usually be a BUT to many examples,

Candlefish66:

for many “Protestants” this Christianity is the only Christ they will find, while the Catholic Church remains a cartoon of itself.

Do you have examples?

Candlefish66:

There were reasons in the Reformation and even now where religious and others have failed, others were called in to the harvest. It’s not preferred at all, but to deny our own culpability in this is extremely vain and has no place in Christ.

Re: errors the Church committed, there were cases of selling of indulgences by some… that’s true and it was error, and NOT what the Church taught.

AND

THAT “selling” of indulgences by those who did it was fixed. Indulgences remain because they are valid

Candlefish66:

I believe we should be ecumenical and do all we can to bring the Body together as one.

Agreed.

I would suggest, as long as ecumenical speak doesn’t become the cartoonish element because it might be lacking truth, depending on the person delivering the message

For example:

Errors in thinking to be avoided (back on post #10)

Excerpted from
Pius IX 1864

III. INDIFFERENTISM, LATITUDINARIANISM (in extension also Relativism)

1. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true.—Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862; Damnatio “Multiplices inter,” June 10, 1851.
2. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation.—Encyclical “Qui pluribus,” Nov. 9, 1846.
3. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ.—Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863, etc.
4. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church.—Encyclical “Noscitis,” Dec. 8, 1849.

 

[fhansen]

No, and Original Sin wasn’t a good thing either. But, as with all bad things, good can still ultimately come of it. God can use it IOW. The Council of Trent and other subsequent actions by the Church through Vat II until today were impacted by the Reformation which served as a wake up call in some respects, a call that produced some very good results. In any case the Church’s teachings as well as her position towards Protestantism are clearer and stronger than ever even as a more mature and Motherly approach is now considered appropriate.

Apostasy happened. God is still at work within our dealings with that challenge.

 

[LovelyLadybug]

Protestants and Catholics share many beliefs. They both believe in the Trinity and that Jesus is the son of God, among other things. But our beliefs are different, too. For instance, Catholics know that Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist, whereas protestants think it’s just a symbol. Catholics confess their sins to a priest and Protestants to do. So, no… Protestants do not have the fullness of their beliefs. If you’re wondering which one is the true religion, the answer is Catholicism. Jesus himself established the Catholic Church, whereas people made up all the protestant denominations. (Martin Luther, John Calvin, etc…) People can’t invent a religion. That’s God’s job. Protestants think The Catholic Church has some errors, but it doesn’t. Why? Since, like I said, it is the only religion that can trace it’s origins to Christ himself. Being protestant is like saying Jesus is wrong about religion!!! I hope this helps!!!

 

[OddBird]

whereas protestants think it’s just a symbol

This should read “whereas some Protestants think it’s just a symbol”.
Quite a lot of Protestants actually believe in Real Presence.

 

[steve-b]

Dovekin:

I answered as best as I could. What more did you want to know?

I asked’
When one converts to be Catholic , what is the process one goes through, EVEN for the validly baptized?

IOW what’s the process that comes after baptism?

Does Protestantism exhibit as Protestants oneness and unity with what Our Lord commands, ? NO

Dovekin:

Do Protestants exhibit as Christians oneness and unity with what Out Lord commands? I would say YES

How?

Dovekin:

Aren’t you trying to divide one group of Christians from another? What is it you are trying to do when you identify people as non-CAtholic?

Did I invent the term or the reality of one being, non-Catholic? No

Dovekin:

Aren’t you trying to divide one group of Christians from another? I am not criticizing, just describing your behavior. You are a baptized person, Do you think you are unable to be fractious for some reason? What is it you are trying to do when you identify people as non-CAtholic?

Did I divide Protestants from the Catholic Church? No

All I’m required to do, is give information, (properly referenced).

Here’s An OT teaching that is true today as it was in Ezekiel’s day

Example: from Ez 3:17-21

IF:
A = Catholic
B = anyone doing wrong
Life = Heaven
Death = Hell

here’s 4 potential scenarios (All emphasis mine)

I understand I’m not your judge nor am I judging you.

SO

take the information as you will. AND know where the content comes from.

1. “If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand.” . IOW A gives B no warning. A & B are both screwed. Both die
2. “But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life.” . IOW A gives B warning. B ignores the warning. A lives B is screwed.
3. “if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.” . IOW A gives B no warning. A is screwed. B is being B and is screwed and ALSO, his good works are not remembered
4. "Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life.” . IOW A warns B and B listens and changes, A & B live

putting this as God sees it, I would do all I can to be in scenarios 2 & 4 and avoid #s 1 & 3 like the plague. But that’s me.

 

[steve-b]

No, and Original Sin wasn’t a good thing either. But, as with all bad things, good can still ultimately come of it. God can use it IOW. The Council of Trent and other subsequent actions by the Church through Vat II until today were impacted by the Reformation which served as a wake up call in some respects, a call that produced some very good results. In any case the Church’s teachings as well as her position towards Protestantism are clearer and stronger than ever even as a more mature and Motherly approach is now considered appropriate.

Apostasy happened. God is still at work within our dealings with that challenge.

Yes ALL of this happened and happens and will happen

From the CCC:
2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. " Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

That’s why

When Jesus was asked the question, looking forward in time, Jesus said few are saved

Meaning everyone else isn’t. Meaning most people aren’t obeying what Our Lord commanded,

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

he is self-condemned αὐτοκατάκριτος .”

This is one of the reasons my church deals with heresy as it does. It considers that if there is a penalty for it, then the person who makes a heretic choice has already drawn it to himself.

He’s actually, already told us in advance what will happen in the end. When asked, Jesus , looking ahead in time till the end, said Few are saved ergo everybody else isn’t. Ergo everybody else goes to Hell. And THAT comes from the one who judges ALL

There was a famous conversation between the Reformed theologian Karl Bath and cardinal von Balthasar, who were good friends. Von Balthasar reportedly said “I believe in hell, but I wouldn’t surprised to learn that hell is empty”. And Karl Barth replied : “I believe in hell, but if there is anyone in there, it is Christ Himself, who took our penalty on Himself.”

This is where my church stands on that matter.

By the way, the parable of the wheat and weeds is Christ telling us what will happen at the end of times. My tradition reads it as a sign of hope rather than of fear, because it sees in it the promise of our own “internal weeds” being destroyed, and of us being totally conformed to the Kingdom of God.

Hell exists, and if no body is fearful of it because they think God will save EVERYONE, in the end, they are calling Jesus a liar.

Lk 13:
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out.

 

[OddBird]

they think God will save EVERYONE

They hope God will save everyone. Big difference.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

they think God will save EVERYONE

They hope God will save everyone. Big difference.

Why would someone hope for something to happen, that is contradictory to what God said would happen?

 

[gohjedrek]

The difference then, would be the belief in Transubstantiation, the transformation of the Bread and Wine into the Body and Blood of Christ in consecration, while the outward appearance remains unaltered.

 

[OddBird]

Why would someone hope for something to happen, that is contradictory to what God said would happen?

Because we believe that God is merciful.

By the way, the CCC say this (emphasis mine) :

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; [618] for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance"

 

[steve-b]

LovelyLadybug:

whereas protestants think it’s just a symbol

This should read “whereas some Protestants think it’s just a symbol”.
Quite a lot of Protestants actually believe in Real Presence"

However,

Real Presence doesn’t happen by one’s “belief”. Real Presence, happens because of valid ordination and valid consecration, which comes from valid apostolic succession of holy orders.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Why would someone hope for something to happen, that is contradictory to what God said would happen?

Because we believe that God is merciful.

Think about what you’re saying

Why then, would God threaten ANYONE with Hell if He knows upfront from all time, it won’t happen?,

OddBird:

By the way, the CCC say this (emphasis mine) :

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; [618] for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance"

Where’s the issue?

WE don’t know, but God knows in advance, EVERYONE who will repent effectively before death, and EVERYONE who won’t.

AND

We see that someone even challenges Jesus on this matter. IOW the challenge was,

Is it true

Lk 13:
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out.

Let’s not lose sight of the big issue here. The one who gave that answer, is the one who will judge ALL of humanity. He is saying, few are saved, meaning the rest aren’t.

AND Let’s not overlook or understate

Jesus told us where that, and all that Jesus taught. comes from.

Jn 12:49
For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

Jn 12:50
whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

Jn 14:10
The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Jn 14:31
I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.