Is Protestantism a good thing? (Or “Why I Kissed Ecumenism Goodbye”)

[AlmaRedemptorisMater]

What would it take to prove the truth of Papal authority, and by extension infallibility? Obviously we differ in opinion, but I am curious to know what it would take to convince you?

If you respond with, “nothing,” fair enough and I’ll accept that too.

 

[gohjedrek]

Yeah, but it’s impossible to find a continuing anglican church at least in my country, just like the ordinariate. I am thankful to be able to find the two churches overseas, so I am planning to head out to the ordinariate to find out their mass later on in the week.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

The answer is,

The only Church Jesus established , and gave all His promises to, the Catholic Church, is the determining factor in what is and is not scripture. Otherwise , there would be NO bible.

Gotcha, so essentially, you elevate the authority of the Church over Christ regardless of what he revealed and handed down. This is the entire crux of the debate. The point here being that the scriptures and the promises contained therein are the product of God’s revelation of his Son, not the authority of man. Because here is the thing, I possess those promises in my hand as we speak and can compare what the Church teaches in its doctrine to what is actually revealed in scripture.

You wouldn’t have the bible if it wasn’t for the Catholic Church. The Church Paul identified as

The pillar and foundation (bulwark) of the truth 1 Tim 3:15

Hodos:

The entire disagreement about the Reformation is that God revealed his will, provided for the inspiration of the scriptures, and when doctrine and practice was demonstrated to be in contradiction to what God preserved in his word, the position of Pope Leo X was that the Church has the authority to contradict God’s revealed word. This is why there remains a split in the Church. And this is why as discussed above, the schisms that remain in the Church, both with the east and west, will not be healed until there is repentance for that view of infallibility.

Again,

all the writers of the NT were already in the Catholic Church that they were writing to and for.

AND

before the Catholic Church collected and canonized the books that would make up and be called the bible, there WAS no bible.

Re: the reformation

The Church always reforms from within. It’s done through councils, both local and ecumenical. By the time of the Protestant revolt and all their heresies, there had been 18 ecumenical councils before that, and untold local councils.

AND

Re: the bible

That you wouldn’t have without the Catholic Church, you won’t find in scripture where it teaches one is to privately interpret scripture for themselves.

THAT teaching (Private interpretation) comes from Protestant theology. And it has contributed to all the 10’s of thousands of divisions we see in Protestantism.

 

[GKMotley]

I wish you luck. If you can affirm all that you must affirm, the Ordinariate is a good idea.

 

[gohjedrek]

There’s a lot to work on and I need more time to reflect and discern, got to read the scriptures as well as early church history, I do give another 2-3 years. I am definitely planning to leave Protestantism, but as to where, still undecided.

 

[GKMotley]

Consider carefully and prayerfully. I know you will.

 

[gohjedrek]

Chatted with a lutheran friend today and asked him the question whether he thinks the main goal of the reformation, was solely to protest and promote sectarianism or to eventually reunite after settling differences. He and I agreed that reunification is the most ideal goal of the reformation, after one’s differences are sorted out. And I thought, the ordinariate is probably the closest ecclesial structure towards anglican reunification with the catholic church. So, I wanted to go and check that out~

 

[GKMotley]

It is Anglican reunification with the RCC. Not just closest to; the thing itself.

What its future might be is to be seen.

 

[Gorgias]

The doctrinal errors however were largely codified during the Council of Trent.

If it’s the province of the Church to have the authority to define doctrine, how do you justify making a claim of “doctrinal error” validly apply?

Luckily we know differently. We have the scriptures that bear out our theology.

Thank goodness Christ authorized you to personally interpret Scripture! (2 Peter 1:20 much? )

The Evangelical Catholic Church who also wrote, collected, and canonized the books of the NT which we call scripture, and actually bases our doctrine on what the apostles handed down in scripture begs to differ. The difference is we can back it up with something more than, “Because I said so.”

Umm… you realize that you just effectively really did say “because we say so”, right?

 

[Gorgias]

The issue is that since the introduction of the doctrine of papal infallibility, there is no longer any means of self-correction once a doctrinal error is introduced into the stream of doctrine and practice.

Is “doctrinal error” possible? If so, can you show that it is possible that the magisterium make such a mistake, from Scripture?

I think you see this in a host of areas to include in the sex abuse scandals due to the way the office of priest/bishop is viewed with regard to Holy Orders.

Nothing in the definition of “holy orders” precludes a priest or bishop from making errors in judgment or from sinning. You’re setting up a straw man, here…

 

[TNMan]

Lutheran confessions condemn self-interpreting Scripture.

 

[Gorgias]

Lutheran confessions condemn self-interpreting Scripture.

And yet, Luther interpreted Scripture himself, novelly and on his own initiative, in contradiction to Apostolic and magisterial interpretation…

 

[EricPH]

If we put the greatest commandments above everything else, then I believe we will find answers.

You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God. The same God hears all our prayers despite our differences.

 

[gohjedrek]

Yeah, it’s hard to say how it will pen out in the future, it currently is hovering about 1 parish for every major city in Australia. Probably be able to take a look tomorrow to see what their liturgy is like.

 

[GKMotley]

Over here, the Ordinariate liturgy is respectable. Though I would have gone with the US 1928 BCP as a basis, rather than either of the liturgies in the 1979 book.

 

[Dovekin]

It is Anglican reunification with the RCC. Not just closest to; the thing itself.

It is not.

The Ordinariates areAnglican dissidents leaving their communion to join Catholics.

Reunion would be Anglicans and Catholics joining together to recognize each other’s traditions as expressions of the Holy Spirit.

I hope that the Ordinariates will help bring about reunion with the Catholic Church, but the initial step of separating from Anglican jurisdictions is decidedly not ecumenical. Similar moves, as when some Orthodox brought their traditions to the Catholic Church, have been great blessings to us, but have not really helped reunite Churches. I am not saying there is anything wrong with these movements, just that they do not have much of a history of bringing about reconciliation.

Perhaps that will change.

 

[GKMotley]

I will amend mine to what was intended. It is a reunification of some Anglicans with the RCC. Not a great number of them, but some.

Anglicanism, in all its splendiferous motleydom, remains apart, as an entity.

 

[EricPH]

Anglicanism, in all its splendiferous motleydom, remains apart, as an entity.

We are still commanded to love all those Anglicans as we love ourselves.

 

[gohjedrek]

I hope that the Ordinariates will help bring about reunion with the Catholic Church, but the initial step of separating from Anglican jurisdictions is decidedly not ecumenical. I am not saying there is anything wrong with these movements, just that they do not have much of a history of bringing about reconciliation.

Perhaps that will change

It isn’t easy at all, there has been many attempts to bring the Anglican church closer to Catholic Church in the past, but there has been great reformation already. The closest was when St John Henry Newman brought about the Oxford Movement and led to the resurgence of the anglo-catholics. However, even the anglo-catholics have their allegiance to the church of england and we know that eventually St John Henry Newman after much debate, realised that the best way to reunite was to ultimately gave up his anglican position as a church of england priest for the roman catholic church. It is certainly not an easy decision for anyone to take, therefore it is the “personal” ordinariate.

I would be more optimistic about the ordinariate, although it really is difficult to accomodate every anglican. Anglicans want to have greater freedom and no magisterium. To give up your previous history and friendships in the church and move to a smaller parish, is a huge undertaking. However, I continue to remain hopeful because the people there (25+) are optimistic and highly evangelical. The parish members were willing to chat with me and also, the ordinary was willing to answer any questions of faith and share the entire first paragraph I written above with me^. So, pray for them to grow in numbers, since most of the members are ageing.

I will amend mine to what was intended. It is a reunification of some Anglicans with the RCC. Not a great number of them, but some.

Yeah, this is really not meant for all. Very few numbers within the some as well. The ones that have most reason to move are the continuing anglican movement who are no longer in the anglican diocese and no longer feel alienated by the prospect of moving to Rome and of course, to live and die as a catholic. Even then, one has to deal with the emotional baggage of starting afresh and for most of the old, it isn’t easy to transit. For the young, even harder since it is easier to associate themselves with the ordinary mass.

We are still commanded to love all those Anglicans as we love ourselves.

Yeah, just as anglicans are called to also love others. Unfortunately, life isn’t smooth. We all know that some people perpetuate hate with regard to church membership. The ordinary monsignor of the mass said that anglicans no longer welcome him after his switch to roman catholicism, he was previously anglican deacon. There was clearly some form of enmity especially against anglicans who left to roman catholicism. And of course, the courage to move forward and embrace catholicism with a rich anglican tradition.

 

[GKMotley]

We Anglicans appreciate that.