Is Protestantism a good thing? (Or “Why I Kissed Ecumenism Goodbye”)

[steve-b]

So yes, I see what @Hodos is saying (I think we’re the same background), and @steve-b I see what you’re saying.

Re: my previous post I responded to

It was in response to the phrase justified by faith alone .

Point being

by faith alone appears in scripture ONCE

NOT, is in front of it.

Jas 2
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

IOW, Faith is not alone in one’s justification…NOR salvation

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

There are 2 types of works described. Good works and works of the law.

Which Paul uses interchangeably throughout the first three chapters of Romans because he is addressing both Gentile and Jew. Notice that you are condemned both by works and works of the law in the Chapters 1 and 2 up through the first half of Chapter 3, and you are not justified by them in the second part of Chapter 3. You are justified by faith apart from works. The only time Paul brings in works in this entire section speaking about faith’s power to justify by grace is to say you AREN’T justified by works.

Paul says justified by faith but NOT by faith alone. James and Paul are NOT and don’t contradict each other.

Hodos:

I think the issue you have with this statement is that you think this automatically means I am advocating antinomianism, which is absolutely not the case. Good works are necessary in the Christian life, but not as the means by which we are justified. They are the result of our justification and sanctification, not the cause. The issue here is causation (when speaking of justification) and the proper place for works in the Christian faith (in sanctification).

And Paul shows THAT causation in

Eph 2:8-10

Notice I include verse #10. A distinction he makes between works of law and good works.

Point being faith is NOT alone. Grace always comes first. THEN we respond or don’t respond to it.

 

[Hodos]

Paul says justified by faith but NOT by faith alone. James and Paul are NOT and don’t contradict each other.

No, Paul used two and a half chapters to set up the contrast between justification by works and justification by faith and explicitly rejects justification by faith apart from works. So yeah, when we are talking about Sola Fide, that is exactly what we are talking about. And I agree that Paul and James are not in contradiction because James’ letter is addressing the benefit of my works for my neighbor’s sake, not justification before God.

And Paul shows THAT causation in

Eph 2:8-10

Notice I include verse #10. A distinction he makes between works of law and good works.

Point being faith is NOT alone. Grace always comes first. THEN we respond or don’t respond to it.

Luther’s point is that justification comes first, and that justification comes by faith, which you just admitted Paul explicitly says Ephesians 2:8-9. The error you then step into is trying to assert that Luther denies vs. 10. He doesn’t. As Paul shows in Romans and Ephesians the works are the result of our justification by grace through faith, not the cause. And I see absolutely no distinction anywhere in Ephesians 2:1-10 between works and works of the law. Paul is speaking to a Gentile audience and doesn’t even mention that phrase works of the law in that entire section (that’s even granting you the argument that Paul distinguishes between works and works of the law, which he doesn’t since he uses them synonymously).

 

[steve-b]

And Paul shows THAT causation in

Eph 2:8-10

Notice I include verse #10. A distinction he makes between works of law and good works.

Point being faith is NOT alone. Grace always comes first. THEN we respond or don’t respond to it.

Hodos:

Luther’s point is that justification comes first, and that justification comes by faith, which you just admitted Paul explicitly says Ephesians 2:8-9.

Why do Protestants always want to leave out vs #10?

Grace comes first. It is the cause. NOT faith, not anything else. GRACE is first. THAT is Paul’s point in Eph 2:8-10

IOW salvation is from

GRACE + FAITH + GOOD WORKS

IOW

Faith is NOT alone

Hodos:

The error you then step into is trying to assert that Luther denies vs. 10. He doesn’t. As Paul shows in Romans and Ephesians the works are the result of our justification by grace through faith, not the cause.

I didn’t even mention Luther.

The error you walk into is, you compose an answer I never gave.

I said grace is the cause of everything. HERE And we know where grace comes from.

Point being, faith is NOT alone.

You said "justification by faith alone is scriptural"… HERE

So I responded to THAT point.

Hodos:

And I see absolutely no distinction anywhere in Ephesians 2:1-10 between works and works of the law. Paul is speaking to a Gentile audience and doesn’t even mention that phrase works of the law in that entire section (that’s even granting you the argument that Paul distinguishes between works and works of the law, which he doesn’t since he uses them synonymously).

The whole point is,

WHEN

You said "justification by faith alone is scriptural"… HERE

It is NOT scriptural the way you say it.

 

[Hodos]

Why do Protestants always want to leave out vs #10?

Grace comes first. It is the cause. NOT faith, not anything else. GRACE is first. THAT is Paul’s point in Eph 2:8-10

IOW salvation is from

GRACE + FAITH + GOOD WORKS

IOW

Faith is NOT alone

As I just stated above, we don’t leave out vs. 10, we uphold it in its rightful place.

Augsburg Confession:

Also they teach that this faith is bound to bring forth good fruits, and that it is necessary to do good works commanded by God, because of God’s will, but that we should not rely on those works to merit justification before God. For remission of sins and justification is apprehended by faith, as also the voice of Christ attests: When ye shall have done all these things, say: We are unprofitable servants. The same is also taught by the Fathers. For Ambrose says: It is ordained of God that he who believes in Christ is saved, freely receiving remission of sins, without works, by faith alone.

As you can see, our understanding of works are in accord with St. Paul in Ephesians 2 where he says that you are saved by GRACE through FAITH, not by works. However, you were saved so that (iva) you may do good works. The works again are not the cause of justification or salvation, they are the result or fruit of justification.

As a side note, it appears Ambrose had no issue with the Sola Fide construction either. This is the catholic faith we proclaim.

 

[BohemianBrother]

Why do Protestants always want to leave out vs #10?

Grace comes first. It is the cause. NOT faith, not anything else. GRACE is first. THAT is Paul’s point in Eph 2:8-10

IOW salvation is from

GRACE + FAITH + GOOD WORKS

IOW

Faith is NOT alone

If I may interrupt,

I think there is a great misunderstanding between the Catholic and Protestant way of speaking and understanding it.

I think what we all mean is:
Grace => Faith => Works

(We’re saved by grace which we accept through faith which results in works - broadly speaking.)

So the catholic approach is to add everything together into (Grace+Faith+Works), while protestants say Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, but that doesn’t mean alone as is unaccompanied. It is more like “We are saved by Grace only, and we receive it through Faith only”, so it is more like (Grace)=>(Faith).

In my language, the word “alone” in Sola Fide and in the epistle of James are often translated using two different words to express.

And certainly Protestants have never left out Ephesians 2:10. In fact it is used to explain the Protestant position on works.

 

[EricPH]

I just feel blessed that I shall be out with Christians from three denominations tonight, we will pray together and wonder the streets until about 4 am tomorrow morning. We shall be listening, caring and helping vulnerable people in our town.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Why do Protestants always want to leave out vs #10?

Grace comes first. It is the cause. NOT faith, not anything else. GRACE is first. THAT is Paul’s point in Eph 2:8-10

IOW salvation is from

GRACE + FAITH + GOOD WORKS

IOW

Faith is NOT alone

As I just stated above, we don’t leave out vs. 10, we uphold it in its rightful place.

Augsburg Confession:

Also they teach that this faith is bound to bring forth good fruits, and that it is necessary to do good works commanded by God, because of God’s will, but that we should not rely on those works to merit justification before God. For remission of sins and justification is apprehended by faith, as also the voice of Christ attests: When ye shall have done all these things, say: We are unprofitable servants. The same is also taught by the Fathers. For Ambrose says: It is ordained of God that he who believes in Christ is saved, freely receiving remission of sins, without works, by faith alone.

As you can see, our understanding of works are in accord with St. Paul in Ephesians 2 where he says that you are saved by GRACE through FAITH, not by works. However, you were saved so that (iva) you may do good works. The works again are not the cause of justification or salvation, they are the result or fruit of justification.

In Eph 2: 10

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Q:​

If one doesn’t do what they are created to do, that God prepared in advance for them to do, are they saved?

Hodos:

As a side note, it appears Ambrose had no issue with the Sola Fide construction either. This is the catholic faith we proclaim.

Reference, “properly referenced” ?

 

[Wannano]

I just feel blessed that I shall be out with Christians from three denominations tonight, we will pray together and wonder the streets until about 4 am tomorrow morning. We shall be listening, caring and helping vulnerable people in our town.

I wish I could join you.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Why do Protestants always want to leave out vs #10?

Grace comes first. It is the cause. NOT faith, not anything else. GRACE is first. THAT is Paul’s point in Eph 2:8-10

IOW salvation is from

GRACE + FAITH + GOOD WORKS

IOW

Faith is NOT alone

If I may interrupt,

I think there is a great misunderstanding between the Catholic and Protestant way of speaking and understanding it.

I think what we all mean is:
Grace => Faith => Works

(We’re saved by grace which we accept through faith which results in works - broadly speaking.)

So the catholic approach is to add everything together into (Grace+Faith+Works),

Aren’t all 3 shown to be necessary in scripture? Yes
Is anyone of them shown to be alone such that the other 2 aren’t necessary? No

BohemianBrother:

while protestants say Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, but that doesn’t mean alone as is unaccompanied.

So why put sola in front or after any of them, if they aren’t “alone”?

BohemianBrother:

It is more like “We are saved by Grace only, and we receive it through Faith only”, so it is more like (Grace)=>(Faith).

While, by faith alone appears legitimately in scripture. Problem is, NOT is in front of it.

AND

ALONE, doesn’t appear anywhere in scripture, after Grace or good works.

BohemianBrother:

In my language, the word “alone” in Sola Fide and in the epistle of James are often translated using two different words to express.

And certainly Protestants have never left out Ephesians 2:10. In fact it is used to explain the Protestant position on works.

For 16 yrs on this forum, Protestants invariably quote Eph 2:8-9 and deliberately exclude v 10.

Why do you suppose that is?

 

[TULIPed]

For 16 yrs on this forum, Protestants invariably quote Eph 2:8-9 and deliberately exclude v 10.

Here’s verse 10:

“10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.”

Who’s really doing all the “work” here? Everything that we are, everything that we do, is by and through Christ - created in advance(!) by God. Perhaps there are better verses to use to wave a flag celebrating our good works, no?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

For 16 yrs on this forum, Protestants invariably quote Eph 2:8-9 and deliberately exclude v 10.

Here’s verse 10:

“10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.”

Who’s really doing all the “work” here? Everything that we are, everything that we do, is by and through Christ - created in advance(!) by God. Perhaps there are better verses to use to wave a flag celebrating our good works, no?

So let’s see,

Are you saying God did it already so I don’t have to do a thing. Is THAT what I’m hearing?

OR

Is it, whatever I do means nothing , even though, it’s said I should do good works?.

 

[TULIPed]

Are you saying God did it already so I don’t have to do a thing. Is THAT what I’m hearing?

No.

Is it, whatever I do means nothing , even though, it’s said I should do good works ?.

No.

I’m saying that anything really good that I do - things that require sacrifice and dying to myself - are done in spite of myself. So much so that I’m almost surprised when I do them - and I’m thankful to see the Holy Spirit working in my life.

“20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.”

Soli Deo Gloria.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Are you saying God did it already so I don’t have to do a thing. Is THAT what I’m hearing?

No.

Is it, whatever I do means nothing , even though, it’s said I should do good works ?.

No.

I’m saying that anything really good that I do - things that require sacrifice and dying to myself - are done in spite of myself. So much so that I’m almost surprised when I do them - and I’m thankful to see the Holy Spirit working in my life.

“20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.”

Soli Deo Gloria.

From your translation

Here’s verse 10:

Eph 2:
“10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.”

IOW, we are to obey God’s plan for us.

As Paul complemented the Church of Rome on their. "obedience of faith".

Rom 1:5…
Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, 6 including yourselves who are called to belong to Jesus Christ; 7 To all God’s beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.[c]
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world.

 

[TULIPed]

How much credit do you take personally for your obedience? And I’m not talking about showing up to Mass on Sunday. I’m talking about no-kidding, personal sacrifice - you first, me second stuff. I’m talking about overcoming addiction so powerful that you’ve lost yourself and everyone you care about. I’m talking about saving your marriage in the face of infidelity. I’m talking about reverse tithing - living on 10% of your gross income and giving the rest to God. How much credit do you take for doing things like that? My guess is that if you talk to Christian folks who have personally experienced these things - the vast majority of them give all the credit to Christ. (I said I guessed - no reference needed )

I believe that I am commanded by God to do good works. I believe that I am to be obedient to my King. I also believe that the only reason I’m able to do them - good works pleasing to God - is because of Jesus Christ living in me.

 

[steve-b]

How much credit do you take personally for your obedience?

Am I forced to obey? Is there a gun to my head to obey? Or do I make a free choice to obey? I obey freely

TULIPed:

And I’m not talking about showing up to Mass on Sunday. I’m talking about no-kidding, personal sacrifice - you first, me second stuff. I’m talking about overcoming addiction so powerful that you’ve lost yourself and everyone you care about. I’m talking about saving your marriage in the face of infidelity. I’m talking about reverse tithing - living on 10% of your gross income and giving the rest to God. How much credit do you take for doing things like that? My guess is that if you talk to Christian folks who have personally experienced these things - the vast majority of them give all the credit to Christ. (I said I guessed - no reference needed )

Those challenges you mention are big… daunting in fact. That’s granted.

I’ll just say in response,

NO MATTER the degree of malady that befalls an individual, it still requires a person’s cooperation with grace to come out of the morass…agreed? THAT cooperation, probably is just as daunting as the morass one is trying to escape from. But it still requires one’s cooperation.

TULIPed:

I believe that I am commanded by God to do good works. I believe that I am to be obedient to my King. I also believe that the only reason I’m able to do them - good works pleasing to God - is because of Jesus Christ living in me.

Agreed.

Q:​

He also commands everyone to be in His One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.

 

[TULIPed]

it still requires a person’s cooperation with grace to come out of the morass…agreed?

I hear you - I just think that we’re so naturally opposed to “cooperation” out of the gate that even that is thanks to Christ. I can see your side of the argument, and I could make it with a straight face, but when I look at my life, I see a different reality.

Agreed.

Q:​

He also commands everyone to be in His One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.

I had the over/under set at 3 posts before you’d bring this up. Nailed it.

If I don’t see you on the boards this weekend Steve, have a good one.

 

[gohjedrek]

I hear you - I just think that we’re so naturally opposed to “cooperation” out of the gate that even that is thanks to Christ. I can see your side of the argument, and I could make it with a straight face, but when I look at my life, I see a different reality.

Have been on both sides of the coin during my experience as a protestant, found myself to be more identifying with the catholic position with regards to free will and co-operation. I have seen protestants who believe in the faith alone concept, those in my family and they start to lower their expectation towards going church and eventually stopped going at all.

 

[BohemianBrother]

Aren’t all 3 shown to be necessary in scripture? Yes
Is anyone of them shown to be alone such that the other 2 aren’t necessary? No

Yes, they are all neccessary. There would be no salvation without God’s grace, there is no receiving of that grace other than through faith and there is no faith without works.

Each of these have a different place and role in the scheme of salvation.

So why put sola in front or after any of them, if they aren’t “alone”?

To reemphasize the crucial aspect of faith. Doing good works without faith is meaningless, and just for show. Works and faith are not interchangeable - they are not on the same level. This is not in conflict with the catholic understanding of faith+works. (yes, both are neccessary in the end.)

While, by faith alone appears legitimately in scripture. Problem is, NOT is in front of it.

AND

ALONE, doesn’t appear anywhere in scripture, after Grace or good works.

I know. But isn’t it weird James is so much concerned not with how we receive grace, but rather what constitutes a living, real faith. Yes, we are not justified by a mere intellectual assent, but by a very real trust and faith in our Lord - this is the faith with which we receive God’s grace and complete it with the good works He has prepaired for us. That is the “good” faith, real faith in the heart

For 16 yrs on this forum, Protestants invariably quote Eph 2:8-9 and deliberately exclude v 10.

Why do you suppose that is?

I don’t know. I have seen it quoted by protestants a few times already in my short time here on CAF. I suppose it is because some American protestants were poorly formed in theology and developed the “doctrine” of OSAS into a false belief that you don’t have to actually be a renewed person who listens to God in their heart to be saved.

And I just wanted to say I admire you zeal and passion and the sheer number of posts you produce, Steve!

 

[gohjedrek]

I know. But isn’t it weird James is so much concerned not with how we receive grace, but rather what constitutes a living, real faith. Yes, we are not justified by a mere intellectual assent, but by a very real trust and faith in our Lord - this is the faith with which we receive God’s grace and complete it with the good works He has prepared for us. That is the “good” faith, real faith in the heart

Faith is internal, the bible definition of faith as seen in Hebrews 11.1.
“Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.”

Catechism of the catholic church 1842: By faith, we believe in God and believe all that he has revealed to us and that Holy Church proposes for our belief.

My understanding is that a christian can profess that they follow Christ, but how then do they do it? This is when the works, the external aspect come into play.

In philippians 2.12, it is mentioned that “Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed–not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence–continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,”

Luke 17.5 talks about the apostles saying to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”.

We also know that faith can increase from the aforementioned verse. It doesn’t stand still, it’s non-static and fluid.

The faith alone concept is too absolute, it brings out the problem of I don’t have to go to church, as long as I believe it’s alright.

This is not to say the faith and works concept is perfect, because there are problems of ritualism (go to church for the sake of it). In that situation, people subscribe to the works alone idea instead of faith and works.

If I were to put the two concepts together, I will personally believe in the faith and works concept. I will not deny the fact that they are genuine christians out there that are called towards following Christ by the faith alone concept, but if I were to weigh the two problems together, the former is worse off, as you cut contact with the church and stop following God altogether.