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pablope
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Razanir
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Seriously, guys. Can we please start cleaning up the heads of our posts before hitting submit? It’s getting annoying having to sift through all the unclosed
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Gabriel_Serafin
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Yes, obviously it is a metaphor. The “fires” of purgatory are an analogy of the purification that the soul goes through. Purgatory means purification–as in purgation. Purgatory is a spiritual state.
The key is to understand what faith in Christ entails. Jesus Himself teaches that in order to be saved one must repent, turn away from sin, believe in the gospel, deny one’s self and carry one’s daily cross and persevere until the end. He also said that some would receive the Word of God with great joy, yet would fall away when trials and tribulations and anxieties came their way. He also warned that not everyone who says :“Lord, Lord” will be save, but only those who DO the will of His Heavenly Father. Furthermore, Jesus is very stern when He warned in a parable: In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart." --Matt. 18:32-35 What do you think Jesus means when He said: “until he should pay back all he owed.”?
Yes, and this ties in perfectly with the description of Purgatory in 1 Cor. 3:13-15 Understand once and for all that all the souls who make it to Purgatory were judged and saved, but still had to be purified from some degree of imperfection or worldly attachment. So after being judged, some souls will fall into this category: “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so AS through fire.”. In other words, they are saved but have to be cleaned up before seeing God.
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Cachonga
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Darryl B:
pablope:
Yes!
I know the Church hasn’t defined very many verses of Scripture. My point is that you are giving your own opinion, which is just as fallible as mine. I’m sure you have just as much confidence in your opinion as I have in mine. How’s that for irony!
So I’ve noticed.
And I’;m crazy enough to look up the references and citations, not just quotes, but I will actually read around the quote (even the entire book if necessary) so I can get the context in which the citation was made.
This is off topic (as I already mentioned), so I won’t engage this discussion on this thread.
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Mike_SoCal
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No, a place of purgatory is not in scripture, however, the Bible does say we will be purged of all sin.
A place of purgatory is simply an opinion of some theologians.
The Bible says: Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
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Bodyandblood999
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I don’t know my way around this site, so forgive the requoting. What I do know is someone who has missed grace when I see them. You’ll have to swallow a lot of pride, but the result will be an eternity of difference!
Some people like to argue with Mormons about odd, wierd aspects of their theology. They do it with Jehovah’s Witnesses, too. But their real problem is the same problem all cults and dead religionists have: They may see the black print on white paper, but they have never seen with “the eyes of their understanding” what actually happened on the cross when God placed the sins of the world (all in the future for us) on his sinless Son and poured out every ounce of condemnation He had, on HIM. To them, it seems impossible God could actually be the God of Amazing Grace, and they know they don’t deserve to be pardoned. This is why Paul said he was determined to know nothing among his hearers but “Christ, and him crucified.” (I Cor 2:2) Those who embrace dead religion simply don’t see what the atonement is all about. They are more about law and punishment. So verses like this bewilder them:
“Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who DOES NOT WORK but believes in him who justifies the UNGODLY, his faith is COUNTED as righteousness.” (Romans 4:4, 5) that, my friend, I justification God’s way.
And so you might see why Paul could say saints are dead to the law. (Romans 7) Once you understand, you’ll know what Paul meant when he said there is NO CONDEMNATION for them. You can stay alive to the law if you want to, but Christ died so you could get what you will never deserve and avoid what you will ALWAYS deserve. No purgatorial fire could EVER satisfy a holy God. Only the blood of Christ. So what kind of work does God require to be justified forever? Let Jesus tell you: “Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”” (John 6:29)
Jesus said FEW will find eternal life. You must hear, see, and choose to repent and BELIEVE. The moment you do, “Tetelestai”! “It is finished!” You become an eternal child of the living loving God, and nothing can ever separate you from his love (Romans 8:39) Beats religion every time.
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Gabriel_Serafin
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Realize that you are confusing Paul’s reference to the works required by Mosaic Law. A glance at Romans 3:28 and Romans 4:5 Paul seems to be saying that works are not necessary for our justification or salvation. But all you have to do is examine the context of these passages and see that your interpretation would contradict Paul himself, as well as the words of James 2: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
Unfortunately many misguided Christians teach the opposite by claiming that we are “justified by faith alone”. Paul made it quite clear in In Romans 2:6-8 that good works are necessary for attaining eternal life when one has the opportunity to performing them: *“For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.” *
In Romans 4:4, 5 Paul was writing to a church in Rome struggling with a heretical sect known as the Judaizers who taught that belief in Christ and obedience to the New Covenant was not enough to be saved—and that a man ALSO had to keep the Mosaic Law and be circumcised in order to be saved.
Again, Paul is speaking about the *Mosaic Law * Understand the difference between doing good works and the works of the Mosaic Law. Christians must do good works, such as feed the hungry, keep the Commandments, forgive one another, etc. etc. Once you understand this, you will not be bewildered when you read this:
*"‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven’" (Matt. 7:21).
“‘Why do you call me “Lord, Lord,” and not do what I tell you?’” (Luke 6:46).
“For he will render every man according to his works . . .” (Rom. 2:6-8).
“For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified” (Rom. 2:13).
"For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgments . . . (Heb. 10:26-27).
“What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?” (Jas. 2:14).
“So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead” (Jas. 2:17).
"But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. . . .Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? (Jas. 2:18-20).
"if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."1 Corinthians 13:1-3
“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (Jas. 2:24). *
. Jesus died for every person that ever lived—yet not all will be saved, because all will be judged by their works, as you see in the quotes I furnished above. As for what one needs to do to be saved, let’s let Jesus answer this for us:
A man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?. . .Jesus replied…* If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”**
“Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”
“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
Jesus answered,** “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”**
*
Wrong. Mortal sin will separate you from God every time, because mortal sin is a rejection of God. Simply read 2 Peter 2:20-22:
- If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.*
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Bodyandblood999
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Gabriel_Serafin
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Well, if you deserve hell, then you are going to go to hell, since God will judge you according to your works. The problem is that you are confusing Paul’s reference to the* works of Mosaic Law*, which we are not bound by. However, as a Christian you still will be judged by your good or evil deeds (works) Once you understand that you will not be bewildered when you read:
- "For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgments (Heb. 10:26-27). * *
Be careful; pride blinds the mind from seeing the truth…
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pablope
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Bodyandblood999
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Paul was not at all just talking about the Mosaic law. That is something I have heard from other Catholics, but it doesn’t stand when we look at what Paul said. I will show you now, and I pray it will help, but I’m afraid that you may not want the truth if it means swallowing your pride. But here it is anyway. I really want to help you: Notice what Paul says about how he was able to keep the law pretty well, until he considered one of its commands. Was it mere Mosaic law–ceremonial stuff? Let’s look…
“For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “YOU SHALL NOT COVET.” But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.” (Romans 7:5-8)
See it? What was the command Paul picked out from “the Law”? Was it about eating pork? Wearing two kinds of cloth? No. It was one of the Big Ten! You see, when Christ died, He was punished for ALL my sins, ALL my violations of the Law, and that is why I am no longer under the Law. I will be judged for rewards, according to Paul. I am also to purify my daily life, but not by struggling and striving to keep rules. That is “the old way of the written code” Paul references above! I serve in newness of the Spirit, and it is AWESOME!! Motivation AND power to become more and more godly in my walk. But Paul is saying that, whether I score a 99 or a 59 in the Christian life, my rewards may be burned up to a degree, but my STANDING with my loving Father who slayed his Son for ALL my sins can’t be touched. THAT is what Paul means by NO condemnation!
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Gabriel_Serafin
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Don’t be silly, Jesus did not do away with the 10 commandments.
I am curious, why do you ignore the mountain of quotes—including the words of Christ —in order to make your interpretation make sense? The quotes I gave you contradict your interpretation. Furthermore, the Law is now written in the hearts of men, thus we will be judged when we break that law. That’s why adulterers, thieves, fornicators, etc etc will NOT enter the kingdom unless they repent, turn away, and stay away from sin.
Don’t be silly, Jesus did not do away with the 10 commandments. Why do you think Jesus explicitly states one must keep the commandments in order to gain eternal life? If people followed your interpretation, they would have to ignore Jesus’ teachings. Paul is simply explaining that the law was the only way he could learn what sin means. Here again is Jesus reminding you that you must keep the commandment:
A man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?. . .Jesus replied… If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” (Matt. 19:17)
Jesus died and paid the price for all sins, past present and future-- yet many will still be condemned. This is because in order to be a disciple of Christ one must repent of sin and turn away from sin. And if one falls again into the same sins, one must continue to sincerely repent and avid those sins. For example, if you look at pornography, or fornicate, or commit adultery, in order to be saved you would have to repent of those sins and do them no more. If you were to fall back into it, then you will be lost unless you sincerely repent again…
I think you need to read your Bible more carefully. Paul himself states:* “I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27)"*
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Now you’re putting words in Paul’s mouth. Again, here he is talking about the Commandments of God, not Mosaic Law:
*“For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified” (Rom. 2:13). *
The problem with self-appointed freelance Bible interpreters is that it leads to heresy and false teaching…
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Bodyandblood999
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You’re still under the law. You need a long, tall glass of biblical grace!
“The Reformation was a time when men went blind, staggering drunk because they had discovered, in the dusty basement of late medievalism, a whole cellarful of fifteen-hundred-year-old, two-hundred proof Grace – of bottle after bottle of pure distilate of Scripture, one sip of which would convince anyone that God saves us single-handedly. The word of the Gospel – after all those centuries of trying to lift yourself into heaven by worrying about the perfection of your bootstraps – suddenly turned out to be a flat announcement that the saved were home before they started… Grace has to be drunk straight: no water, no ice, and certainly no ginger ale; neither goodness, nor badness, not the flowers that bloom in the spring of super spirituality could be allowed to enter into the case.” (Robert Farrar Capon, Between Noon and Three, pages 114–115)
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Gabriel_Serafin
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Notice again how you keep ignoring the clear passages which contradict your interpretation of Sacred Scripture. Understand that we are saved by God’s grace. Grace is a gift, which eempowers us to repent and turn away from sin. But as any gift, it can be rejected— and many people do–they rather keep living sinful lives. We are all sinners, but that’s out struggle—to become sanctified through God’s grace which empowers us to say NO! to sin. Thus over and over in Scripture we read about how we must keep the Commandments. But as we grow in faith and love for Christ, we keep the commandments out of love for God, and not a mere fear of hell. But one thing is clear:
*if you want to have eternal life, keep the commandments -Matt. 19:17
If you love me, keep my commandments.-John 14:15
If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love-John 15:10
And by this we know that we have known him, if we keep his commandments. 1 John 2:3
In this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God, and keep his commandments.-1 John 5:2*
Understand once and for all that Jesus never handed out Bibles; instead He established His Church to teach in His name throughout the ages until the end of time, despite wolves and the weeds in every generation, which abound in both the clergy and the laity. It was through the Church that we have the Bible in the first place.
The mistake you are making is to take the Bible and try to interpret it as you see fit. That is a recipe for error. For example, people have argued against the doctrine of the Holy Trinity by using Sacred Scripture (i.e., Jesus’ words stating that the Father is Greater than He" in John 14:28) The Sacred Tradition of the Church had always taught the divinity of Christ, thus it defined the doctrine of the Trinity as Dogma, when heretics were using the Bible to argue against it. This is known as the Arian heresy.
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Bodyandblood999
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The law had not been dealt with while Jesus was on the way to the cross. Only after the resurrection could it be stated that “there is,therefor now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus.” The only question is, are you in? If you are, either God lies, or NO condemnation EXISTS for you. That is what Paul means by saying we serve in NEWNESS OF THE SPIRIT rather than oldness of the letter–no more fear–we’ve been adopted by God!
I fully agree that salvation is a gift by grace, and that God gives us repentance AND faith! He wants us to experience progressive sanctification. Those who know they have been FOREVER freed from fear of condemnation are the only ones equipped to be sanctified. If you tell someone they better stop coveting or ELSE!..Paul says that causes them to sin MORE! (It did to him) The Law, when it comes in contact with a sinner, actually stirs up sin! (Romans 7) It doesn’t work for preventing sin. But LEGALISTS think it does.
And I agree that only those who continue in the faith were really saved. Praying a prayer or getting baptized doesn’t save you. Faith in the blood of the cross saves you, and it regenerates and a new heart is created that WILL produce good works, more and more.
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Redfred
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Amen bro. Until I was born again, I struggled and strive, but failed and didn’t really love him. Now…!
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Bodyandblood999
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You have to feel profoundly sad for them–being led to believe that they will get their sins burned off after they die. They don’t realize true saving faith in Christ ALONE is the only hope they have of being justified and adopted into God’s family. My church is full of former Catholics who fled because there was no life there, just dry religion.
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Redfred
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Ouch.
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Gabriel_Serafin
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Obviously there will be no condemnation for those who are in Christ. But one needs to understand what it mean to be in Christ, and to realize that one ceases to be in Christ when He reject’s God’s grace, through willful mortal sin. Thus Paul warned:
“See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22)
Sure, absolutely. Yet you still have free will to reject grace. There are people who know and believe that smoking is unhealthy and bad for their lungs and may cause cancer, yet they still choose to smoke. Your heart may be filled with anger, pride and un-forgiveness; and no amount of belief is going to save you if you do not repent and uproot those sentiments from your heart. Thus Jesus warned:
*But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. * Matt.5:22
I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here. Paul frequently admonished Christians about not falling into sin or even to associate with self-proclaimed Christians who lived immoral lives: * I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.*
Jesus Himself, when directly asked what one must do to be saved, said: If you want to enter life, keep the commandments. Matt. 19:17
Yes, and continuing in the faith means at least keeping the commandments as Jesus told the young rich man in Matt. 19:17. Having faith requires a person to put it into action. Earlier you were claiming that we weren’t bound by the 10 commandments. James was addressing people who were teaching exactly what you are claiming, that faith alone saves. Now read what James had to say to them:
What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
*Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38). *
*“Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 3:21) *
Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism Col. 2:11-12
*Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. (Romans 6:3-4) *
Again, only with those who choose to respond to God’s grace every day, getting back up when they fall, persevering until the end of their life will be saved: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him… 1 John 2:4
If your heart is full of envy, lust, pride, un-forgiveness, and you’re a glutton, dishonest, make idols out of things and people, and do not love your neighbor, then all the faith in the world is not going to save you: *If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. *
There are people who go through life, claiming that they love God, and that they are saved, claiming they are washed in the Blood of the Lamb, thinking they are going straight to heaven when they die, and even use their limited and erroneous knowledge of the Bible to condemn, accuse and slander others of going to hell. But Scripture is clear:
Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 1 John 4:20
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