Is Purgatory in the bible

[zz912]

How do people who are dead hear our prayers if they are not alive? Wasn’t King Saul reprimanded for bringing someone back to get advice? Why would we pray to someone who is dead when we have the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In fact we are told that the Holy Spirit will intercede for us when we can’t express ourselves with the words that we want and need?

Of course they are alive. God is God of the living, not the dead.

In the Book of Revelation, we see a couple times where the saints and angels take our prayers (so they are aware of them), and present them to God for us.

Of course you can pray directly to God, and you should. But that doesn’t mean you can’t ask other members of the Body of Christ, especially those already in Heaven, to pray for you.

 

[JoeMike]

Do I get to keep the $100?

How real is your contrition, if you can even consider not giving the money back?

 

[Emily2014]

The Sacrament of Reconciliation has penance as part of it. A required part. Even if the person does not perform the penance, the sin is forgiven. So what is the reason for their being penance as part of Confession? And why is the sin forgiven if they don’t complete the penance?

Sorry but I still don’t understand! - If your sins are forgiven by a Priest in the name of God and you then fulfill whatever Penance you are given - why are you then condemned to this Purgatory situation after death, for those same sins?

 

[Erich]

Think of it this way… nothing unclean (imperfect) can enter Heaven.

If you take a brand-new 2x4 and hammer a bunch of nails into it (sins), then pull the nails out (reconciliation), you are not left with a brand-new 2x4. What you are left with is a 2x4 with a bunch of nail holes. Depending on how many, and how close together, the 2x4 itself may even be split. The best we can do on our own is patch the holes or fill them with putty or something. That’s not quite the same thing as “regrowing the wood” (purgatory) to restore the 2x4 to its brand-new state.

 

[zz912]

Sorry but I still don’t understand! - If your sins are forgiven by a Priest in the name of God and you then fulfill whatever Penance you are given - why are you then condemned to this Purgatory situation after death, for those same sins?

Purgatory is not mandatory. If while on earth we fully unite ourselves to Christ, and perform penance, restitution, alms-giving, prayer, etc to make up for the temporal punishments for our sins, then we will go directly to Heaven. Purgatory is for cleansing us of any impurity that remains.

Really think about what you said. The sin is forgiven during the Confession. What part in your words does the penance play?

 

[zz912]

How real is your contrition, if you can even consider not giving the money back?

Not relevant to the question. But there are several circumstances where you could have true contrition and not give the money back. (i.e. forgot about it, meant to give it but couldn’t, don’t have it to give back, too embarrassed or fearful to give back, person moved away, person passed away, etc)

So what is your answer to my question?

 

[Emily2014]

Really think about what you said. The sin is forgiven during the Confession. What part in your words does the penance play?

Sorry - to clarify what I meant - You go to Confession; Make an Act of Contrition with a firm purpose of amendment. The Priest gives you a Penance and Absolves you from your sins in the name of God. You do whatever Penance the Priest has given to you, with sincere Faith and gratitude to have received the Sacrament. Your sins are then forgiven. That’s why I cannot understand that the sin hangs over us, only to be cleansed after death in purgatory.

 

[Emily2014]

Think of it this way… nothing unclean (imperfect) can enter Heaven.

If you take a brand-new 2x4 and hammer a bunch of nails into it (sins), then pull the nails out (reconciliation), you are not left with a brand-new 2x4. What you are left with is a 2x4 with a bunch of nail holes. Depending on how many, and how close together, the 2x4 itself may even be split. The best we can do on our own is patch the holes or fill them with putty or something. That’s not quite the same thing as “regrowing the wood” (purgatory) to restore the 2x4 to its brand-new state.

A clever analogy and interesting, but surely Confession forgives all your sins, restoring us to a clean sheet - especially a deathbed Sacrament of the Sick.

 

[zz912]

Sorry - to clarify what I meant - You go to Confession; Make an Act of Contrition with a firm purpose of amendment. The Priest gives you a Penance and Absolves you from your sins in the name of God. You do whatever Penance the Priest has given to you, with sincere Faith and gratitude to have received the Sacrament. Your sins are then forgiven. That’s why I cannot understand that the sin hangs over us, only to be cleansed after death in purgatory.

The sin does not hang over us, but the effects of the sin, and the stain of the sin can still be with us. We must cleanse ourselves of these by performing penance and prayer.

What happens if your forget to do the penance the priest assigns in Confession? He has said the words of absolution, so the sins are forgiven. What does the penance do?

 

[zz912]

A clever analogy and interesting, but surely Confession forgives all your sins, restoring us to a clean sheet - especially a deathbed Sacrament of the Sick.

Is the sheet really clean if the $100 you stole is still in your pocket?

 

[Emily2014]

Is the sheet really clean if the $100 you stole is still in your pocket?

No of course not but part of your Penance would be to repay that $100 in whatever way the Priest directed. Once that was done - the sheet would be clean.
Can’t imagine how anyone could forget to do a penance after Confession, but if you did, then humbly completing your penance immediately you remembered would be acceptable.

 

[zz912]

No of course not but part of your Penance would be to repay that $100 in whatever way the Priest directed. Once that was done - the sheet would be clean.

So even after the sin is forgiven by absolution in Confession, the penance has an effect. So you agree that the sheet is not clean after absolution and the sin is forgiven. Correct?

Can’t imagine how anyone could forget to do a penance after Confession, but if you did, then humbly completing your penance immediately you remembered would be acceptable.

And what if you never remembered?

 

[flower_lady]

So even after the sin is forgiven by absolution in Confession, the penance has an effect. So you agree that the sheet is not clean after absolution and the sin is forgiven. Correct?

And what if you never remembered?

I think that the sins are forgiven that we confess if we repent sincerely and do the penance and I don’t think that we go to purgatory for those sins. I think that all of us comit sins everyday that we are not even aware of or forget to confess. These are the sins that we will have to pay for in purgatory. I do believe that none of us could probably count the sins we forget to confess or the sins we commit everyday and aren’t aware of.

 

[Emily2014]

So even after the sin is forgiven by absolution in Confession, the penance has an effect. So you agree that the sheet is not clean after absolution and the sin is forgiven. Correct?
And what if you never remembered?

No, the sin is forgiven when the Priest forgives you. He says “Go in peace -Your sins are forgiven”. Penance, which can be a wide range of things the Priest asks you to do - not by any means always prayers- you do exactly as asked, as soon as you can, in faith and humility. God is all love and all mercy - We are fallible humans. If you never remember (I think extremely unlikely) it does not negate the Sacrament of Confession and the fact that through the power of God, your sins are forgiven.

 

[zz912]

No, the sin is forgiven when the Priest forgives you. He says “Go in peace -Your sins are forgiven”. Penance, which can be a wide range of things the Priest asks you to do - not by any means always prayers- you do exactly as asked, as soon as you can, in faith and humility. God is all love and all mercy - We are fallible humans. If you never remember (I think extremely unlikely) it does not negate the Sacrament of Confession and the fact that through the power of God, your sins are forgiven.

You are correct, but you’re not answering my questions. What effect does Penance have? You correctly stated that penance does not affect the forgiveness of the sins. So what does Penance do?

 

[Emily2014]

You are correct, but you’re not answering my questions. What effect does Penance have? You correctly stated that penance does not affect the forgiveness of the sins. So what does Penance do?

I’m no Theologian! It’s an intrinsic part of the Sacrament of Reconciliation, where you show remorse for the fact that you offended God’s love and humbly offer your penance in thanksgiving that through His mercy those sins have been forgiven. Sorry but that’s the best I can do in the wee small hours! (nearly 1a.m in England)

God bless you

 

[zz912]

I’m no Theologian! It’s an intrinsic part of the Sacrament of Reconciliation, where you show remorse for the fact that you offended God’s love and humbly offer your penance in thanksgiving that through His mercy those sins have been forgiven. Sorry but that’s the best I can do in the wee small hours! (nearly 1a.m in England)

God bless you

Sorry to badger you a bit. I was striving to show that the penance from Confession is not part of the forgiveness of those sins, and not part of the absolution. The penance, and all penance we perform helps to attone and make up for the temporal harm we have committed and helps to alleviate the temporal punishment due. The eternal consequence of the sin (hell) is paid and forgiven, but the earthly or temporal punishment due is still there. That is what we are working off, and what Purgatory purifies us of.

St. Paul mentions this when he says that he performs penance on his body to make up is lacking in the Body of Christ (i.e. performing acts of reparation for the sins committed). The sins are forgiven, but he is working off the temporal punishment.

 

[flower_lady]

I think that the sins are forgiven that we confess if we repent sincerely and do the penance and I don’t think that we go to purgatory for those sins. I think that all of us comit sins everyday that we are not even aware of or forget to confess. These are the sins that we will have to pay for in purgatory. I do believe that none of us could probably count the sins we forget to confess or the sins we commit everyday and aren’t aware of.

Well, I hate to say it, but I’m wrong because I went back and read the post over again and in Sam 12:13 it says even though you asked for forgiveness and God forgives us he still had to pay for the sin with the child that was being born to him. My bad!

 

[Emily2014]

Sorry to badger you a bit. I was striving to show that the penance from Confession is not part of the forgiveness of those sins, and not part of the absolution. The penance, and all penance we perform helps to attone and make up for the temporal harm we have committed and helps to alleviate the temporal punishment due. The eternal consequence of the sin (hell) is paid and forgiven, but the earthly or temporal punishment due is still there. That is what we are working off, and what Purgatory purifies us of.

St. Paul mentions this when he says that he performs penance on his body to make up is lacking in the Body of Christ (i.e. performing acts of reparation for the sins committed). The sins are forgiven, but he is working off the temporal punishment.

Sorry but I believe that the Sacrament of Reconciliation cleanses us from sin. Hence, I do not and cannot believe in purgatory.
God bless you.

 

[Shin]

Our Lord requires us to believe in it as a matter of Faith, as purgatory is a dogma of the Church.

During the Sacrament of Confession the priest gives a penance. This is the sign of purgatory. The penance given is not the whole penance due, it is merely to help one begin.

The souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, enter Purgatory. (De Fide.)

• Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma

"The souls of those who depart this life with true repentance and in the love of God, before they have rendered satisfaction for their trespasses and negligences by the worthy fruits of penance, are purified who depart this life with true repentance of purification."

• Council of Florence

“Among them is also the fire of purgatory, in which the souls of just men are cleansed by a temporary punishment, in order to be admitted into their eternal country, into which nothing defiled entereth. The truth of this doctrine, founded, as holy Councils declare,’ on Scripture, and confirmed by Apostolic tradition, demands exposition from the pastor, all the more diligent and frequent, because we live in times when men endure not sound doctrine.”

• Catechism of Council of Trent

“The faithful must be fully aware that sin and its eternal punishment are remitted by the Sacrament of Penance if one makes proper use of it; however the entire temporal punishment is very seldom taken away. This must be removed either by satisfactory works in this life or by the fire of Purgatory after death. The holy Council of Trent in session 6, chap. 4, and canon 30 of the same session teaches this under the heading* de Justification*e.”

Pope Benedict XIV, Apostolic Constitution, On Preparation for the Holy Year