Is Relativism Imploding Our Society

[elts1956]

No of course relativism is not imploding anything. If you look at history century by century you find that life was worth very little for hundreds of years. Life was mean short and ugly for most of humanity. We are more compassionate, empathetic and caring of each other than at any time in all of historical time. We place more value on life, children, leisure, health care, decent livings, homes, work environment and time for religious faith than at any time before.

Relativism is merely a nice pejorative word to use against people whose opinions you don’t value or agree with. Everything and anything that is not in line with some folks rigid interpretation of faith is slapped with the label of relativism, humanism, or a host of other terms that denote to them at least NOT faith, and not faith as they interpret it.

Hi Spiritmeadow, as I wrote before, I agree that relativism has existed throughout history. So, given the Ten Commandments, the Church, the theologians etc. that have written regarding morals, why is relativism still in existence today? Is it the ill human condition that cannot be cured?

That being said, I use the concept of relativism myself in certain instances, but those instances are not in regard to absolutes, but “opinions”…

So what has happened to the people Christ intended us to be? Why haven’t morals changed more for the better? They have improved somewhat, but given the fact we are even discussing the way people deal with absolutes means we still have immorality. What do you think is happening, or not happening in society?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Hi Spiritmeadow, as I wrote before, I agree that relativism has existed throughout history. So, given the Ten Commandments, the Church, the theologians etc. that have written regarding morals, why is relativism still in existence today? Is it the ill human condition that cannot be cured?

That being said, I use the concept of relativism myself in certain instances, but those instances are not in regard to absolutes, but “opinions”…

So what has happened to the people Christ intended us to be? Why haven’t morals changed more for the better? They have improved somewhat, but given the fact we are even discussing the way people deal with absolutes means we still have immorality. What do you think is happening, or not happening in society?

I dunno. Perhaps its because we spend too much time discussing what is immoral instead of going out and doing moral acts, like feeding the hungry, caring for the sick, housing hte poor, etc. For goodness sake have you seen that someone here is worried about whether reading a fortune cookie is sinful? I mean it’s a bit overdone in society at large but this forum takes it to a “whole nother level.”

I would on a serious note suggest that the business elite and their premise that the work ethic can make anyone rich contributes mightily to our obsession with wealth and self. If we just work harder, and more hours, we too can be middle class. Course it was all a big lie trying to steal darwin from biology into sociology, but its done the damage. Look at this forum as well on issues of social justice. Nobody wants their money taken to help their neighbor, their neighbors are mostly lazy according to them. Secularism has no hold on injustice. Too many have bought the big lie and then step over their needy brothers, and Christians do it just as much as any other. It’s sad, especially coming from Catholics which I hold to a higher standard of knowledge of the realities. Jesus spoke about our neighbors and helping the "other’ in society more than on most any topic, yet we seem stuck in pointing fingers at who is being more sinful. Its a shame.

 

[edwest2]

In the 1950s and 1960s, Western society was more concerned about faith and religious life. Film and television reflected that. My neighborhood was filled with positive and Godly role models, and yes, those people still exist. But the media has turned its spotlight away from those people and focused it on the profoundly dysfunctional. It has distorted sexuality and turned it into something perverse and unholy. It is bashing all Christians.

Now, the divorce rate among Christians is as high as it is among secular people. I know too many people who were raised Catholic who have one, two or three divorces under their belt, and whose sons and daughters are shacking up instead of being married. Instead of Godly role models, the young have perverse and profoundly dysfunctional people like Brad, Angelina, Jen and Britney. And so-called “music” that features killing and the disrespect of women.

I see too many parents living under a distorted view of life that allow their children to run roughshod over them.

Without a firm, established and black and white way to live one’s life, and without strong families with both parents to teach the next generation, things will stay the same or get worse.

Each of us is told by scripture to be holy. To think on things that have any virtue. Jesus told His disciples: “Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.” This is our goal. And no matter if we stumble, get up, seek forgiveness, and keep walking toward Christ.

God bless,
Ed

 

[KingAlfred]

Let’s make it real simple:

A: No imploding is going on.

B: As posted on another forum: “We no longer want to feel guilty or shameful or sinful.”

All we are seeing in Western society is the fulfillment of scripture which tells us; 2 Timothy 4: 3 “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”

There are no absolutes. It’s all good. What’s the big deal? God forbid.

Peace,
Ed

So, Western society is disintegrating in accordance with Biblical prophecy?

 

[ribozyme]

So, Western society is disintegrating in accordance with Biblical prophecy?

I would blame it on peak oil and resource depletion instead of Biblical prophecy.

 

[elts1956]

I dunno. Perhaps its because we spend too much time discussing what is immoral instead of going out and doing moral acts, like feeding the hungry, caring for the sick, housing hte poor, etc. For goodness sake have you seen that someone here is worried about whether reading a fortune cookie is sinful? I mean it’s a bit overdone in society at large but this forum takes it to a “whole nother level.”

I would on a serious note suggest that the business elite and their premise that the work ethic can make anyone rich contributes mightily to our obsession with wealth and self. If we just work harder, and more hours, we too can be middle class. Course it was all a big lie trying to steal darwin from biology into sociology, but its done the damage. Look at this forum as well on issues of social justice. Nobody wants their money taken to help their neighbor, their neighbors are mostly lazy according to them. Secularism has no hold on injustice. Too many have bought the big lie and then step over their needy brothers, and Christians do it just as much as any other. It’s sad, especially coming from Catholics which I hold to a higher standard of knowledge of the realities. Jesus spoke about our neighbors and helping the "other’ in society more than on most any topic, yet we seem stuck in pointing fingers at who is being more sinful. Its a shame.

Yes, there was a time in early U.S. History and perhaps even today that some religious groups thought the more wealth they could accumulate proved God shined His favor on them more than their neighbor. Somehow this was carried way too far and we have forgotten the less fortunate. There are people who live in totally different “worlds” today than those of the middle class and we aren’t even aware of them.

I watched a TV show last evening called “30 Days”. It was the first time I watched it, so I don’t know if the presentations was the rule, or not. The “star” of the show agreed to spend 30 days on one of the Navaho reservations, perhaps AZ?. The poverty there is terrible. No running water, inside toilets, electricity, heat in the winter. The land is so dry, nothing grows. Things we whites take for granted. The Native Americans of this country are indeed The Forgotten People. There are so many many that need help, not only NAs, one doesn’t quite know where to begin.

The one thing this Navaho group had that many other impoverished groups don’t have is a system of old beliefs, rituals, respect for Mother Earth and their families. This tight knit group sustains them through the hard times. Their ability to live in the “now” is more than admirable. They are a proud dignified people. I would say this is possibly true of the Hopi too who sit in the middle of the Navaho Nation’s land.

Somehow this country has turned away from its roots of religion, honesty and sacrifice. How did we allow ourselves to be led down this path? I am afraid for my Grandchildren.

 

[KingAlfred]

I would blame it on peak oil and resource depletion instead of Biblical prophecy.

Spot on.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Yes, there was a time in early U.S. History and perhaps even today that some religious groups thought the more wealth they could accumulate proved God shined His favor on them more than their neighbor. Somehow this was carried way too far and we have forgotten the less fortunate. There are people who live in totally different “worlds” today than those of the middle class and we aren’t even aware of them.

I watched a TV show last evening called “30 Days”. It was the first time I watched it, so I don’t know if the presentations was the rule, or not. The “star” of the show agreed to spend 30 days on one of the Navaho reservations, perhaps AZ?. The poverty there is terrible. No running water, inside toilets, electricity, heat in the winter. The land is so dry, nothing grows. Things we whites take for granted. The Native Americans of this country are indeed The Forgotten People. There are so many many that need help, not only NAs, one doesn’t quite know where to begin.

The one thing this Navaho group had that many other impoverished groups don’t have is a system of old beliefs, rituals, respect for Mother Earth and their families. This tight knit group sustains them through the hard times. Their ability to live in the “now” is more than admirable. They are a proud dignified people. I would say this is possibly true of the Hopi too who sit in the middle of the Navaho Nation’s land.

Somehow this country has turned away from its roots of religion, honesty and sacrifice. How did we allow ourselves to be led down this path? I am afraid for my Grandchildren.

It might have been NM. There are many reservations in NM and some are Navaho as well as Zuni and other groups. I spent a couple of weeks at a Catholic parish (read housetrailer) setting up with Father and sister a summer camp for the kids. We took them one day on a 2 hour trip to a public swimming pool. To say they were poor is not the word, they were deeply wanting in the basics, yet their parents were unfailingly helpful and happy.People work together to help each other. It was a wonderful experience for me. In our busy lives fueled by all the basic amenities I agree, we lose sight of the real world, and thus God to some extent. I have never been so impressed by the grandeur that is God than when I saw the landscapes there and sat at night on the steps looking up at the cliffs and hearing the wolves howl. I connected with God in a way that has enabled me to return to more “modern” environs and “see” more deeply than before.

But to be honest, I don’t think we have lost anything. The TV does not reflect life in America, never did and probably never will. It is our escapism only. When I wave at a neighbor, or stop to drag out a bag of chips to a homeless man on the side of the street, and he smiles and thanks me profusely, I’m seeing all the caring and connection that has ever existed. We just forget its out there. We get too angry at Washington and greed and taxes and blaming somebody, and we forget for a while. A walk down through the meadow, a connection to somebody’s thoughts on a blog, a thousand smiles and giving of self occur every moment in time.

I’d worry more about whether you are going to be leaving your grandchildren a habitable planet than whether we have lost our sense of brotherhood and carrying for one another. Those are safe I feel, but the awful people who feel they have a god-given right to take what they want, the environment and people be da m ned, those are the folks I worry about.

 

[UndertheRadar]

I have been, in the past, apart of debates concerning morality. This was a required course among a liberal college, and I quickly found out how many people believed in “moral relativism”. With all due respect, I believe that this is just a smoke screen for liberal change. Many are missing the point that morality began with the birth of the Ten Commandments, which are written in stone. This guide to morality does not change, therefore morality should not either. Modernism would be OK if it were guided by morality, so long as morality remains the same. Take the constitution of the United States for example, where the forefathers were bright enough to see that in a modern world something was required to stay constant. Thus the constitution serves as a foundation, and history tells us that nothing stands without a foundation.

 

[KingAlfred]

“Many are missing the point that morality began with the birth of the Ten Commandments…”

For Judeo-Christian civilization, yes. All great peoples have had some sense of morality.

 

[UndertheRadar]

Therein lies the problem KingAlfred. Everyone believes in a different “kind” of morality yet there is only one and is guided by the ten commandments. Perhaps some civilizations have lived by moral standards but that does not mean to say that these are not guided by the commandments. Christians believe in a creator that gave them a code of conduct as it were and thus came morality, the ability to judge whether or not a situation was right or wrong. Without the commandments, what do we as human beings have as a standard by which to conduct ourselves? A “social morality”? Who is to say what is right or wrong? Again, morality does not change, and has been here as long as right and wrong have existed, and there is ONE morality, not five or one hundred. The commandments define morality.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Therein lies the problem KingAlfred. Everyone believes in a different “kind” of morality yet there is only one and is guided by the ten commandments. Perhaps some civilizations have lived by moral standards but that does not mean to say that these are not guided by the commandments. Christians believe in a creator that gave them a code of conduct as it were and thus came morality, the ability to judge whether or not a situation was right or wrong. Without the commandments, what do we as human beings have as a standard by which to conduct ourselves? A “social morality”? Who is to say what is right or wrong? Again, morality does not change, and has been here as long as right and wrong have existed, and there is ONE morality, not five or one hundred. The commandments define morality.

Wow, you find nothing moral until the ten commandments? So nothing about Adam, eve, Noah, abraham, issac, Rebecca, Sarah, or any of the hosts of other humans that lived before Moses walked down the mountain with the tablets was moral? I’m sure glad God saw differently.

Morality is a bit bigger than you suggest. Perhaps it started with the first human offered his hand, his shelter, or his food to one in need? When a human first helped another who was injured or nursed a sick stranger? Or a woman took on the responsibiity of a dead friends children? To condemn millions as living immorally until the commandments suggests something a bit too awful to contemplate about the God you refer to.

 

[KingAlfred]

Therein lies the problem KingAlfred. Everyone believes in a different “kind” of morality yet there is only one and is guided by the ten commandments. Perhaps some civilizations have lived by moral standards but that does not mean to say that these are not guided by the commandments. Christians believe in a creator that gave them a code of conduct as it were and thus came morality, the ability to judge whether or not a situation was right or wrong. Without the commandments, what do we as human beings have as a standard by which to conduct ourselves? A “social morality”? Who is to say what is right or wrong? Again, morality does not change, and has been here as long as right and wrong have existed, and there is ONE morality, not five or one hundred. The commandments define morality.

I’m not putting other religions in the same league as Christianity. No way. I’m just reminding you that Judeo-Christian thought is not the only morally driven mentality. Historically speaking, religion and philosophy, with associated moral and ethical codes have always existed, throughout much of the world, if not most.

 

[fix]

Many are missing the point that morality began with the birth of the Ten Commandments, which are written in stone.

I think it is fair to say morality is written into the very nature of man. From the very start.

ADDRESS OF CARDINAL JOSEPH RATZINGER

"From the beginning, God had implanted in the heart of man the precepts of the natural law. Then he was content to remind him of them. This was the Decalogue

…

 

[Verisimilitude]

No of course relativism is not imploding anything. If you look at history century by century you find that life was worth very little for hundreds of years. Life was mean short and ugly for most of humanity. We are more compassionate, empathetic and caring of each other than at any time in all of historical time. We place more value on life, children, leisure, health care, decent livings, homes, work environment and time for religious faith than at any time before.

I have to disagree with this. From your perch in modern America life certainly might appear to be mean, short and ugly for people in generations long past but in many places of the world today it exists today just as it did then. "We’ is realative and if ‘we’ placed such value on life, children…‘we’ wouldn’t have legalized infantcide in this country.

Relativism is merely a nice pejorative word to use against people whose opinions you don’t value or agree with. Everything and anything that is not in line with some folks rigid interpretation of faith is slapped with the label of relativism, humanism, or a host of other terms that denote to them at least NOT faith, and not faith as they interpret it.

Again, I must disagree. A ‘nice pejorative’ is an oxymoron. The value of life is not a religious interpretation but a human value to be embraced by all humans. Religion may be a vehicle to give lessons in morality but a lack of religion does not mean a lack of morals just as claiming a faith does not make one moral.

The value of human life is the foundation to all mans actions and whatever sets that foundation to the individual is relative to their actions and beliefs. Since many Christians are pro-abortion and pro-war in America the teachings of Christ could be said to be relative to the situation. If I believed that I might as well be Muslim.

If relativism with or without religion is not responsible theft and murder then what is?

 

[KingAlfred]

I believe Christianity, and Catholicism in particular, saved Western Europe during the Middle Ages, and in the process, permanently molded the thinking of Westerners, whether they realize it or not. Western Man’s greatness, as the master of advanced civilization, stems directly from his Christian psychology and identity (again…even in the case of atheists, they who possess a Christian conscience and sense of ethics and morality, which they inherited from a society based on Judeo-Christian thought). As long as Western Man remains Christian, he will survive the troubles of this world. If and when he abandons Christ, however, which he’s doing most tragically in Europe, he will perish. Without Christianity, he is nothing.

 

[UndertheRadar]

Wow, you find nothing moral until the ten commandments? So nothing about Adam, eve, Noah, abraham, issac, Rebecca, Sarah, or any of the hosts of other humans that lived before Moses walked down the mountain with the tablets was moral? I’m sure glad God saw differently.

Morality is a bit bigger than you suggest. Perhaps it started with the first human offered his hand, his shelter, or his food to one in need? When a human first helped another who was injured or nursed a sick stranger? Or a woman took on the responsibiity of a dead friends children? To condemn millions as living immorally until the commandments suggests something a bit too awful to contemplate about the God you refer to.

I am well rebuked. I did not carefully choose my words so I apologize for this. My thought here is that the ten commandments are a guide for our morality. I did not mean to condemn those before the ten commandments. Hope that sounds better!

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I have to disagree with this. From your perch in modern America life certainly might appear to be mean, short and ugly for people in generations long past but in many places of the world today it exists today just as it did then. "We’ is realative and if ‘we’ placed such value on life, children…‘we’ wouldn’t have legalized infantcide in this country.

One can cite innumerable instances where life is still horrifying as anyone can tell you. Darfur, Myanmar, etc. That is not the point. The question is overall. And I would still maintain that overall, human society treats its citizens better and with more love and care than anytime in the past. That it is still woefully short of the mark is obvious, but does not remove the point made.

Again, I must disagree. A ‘nice pejorative’ is an oxymoron. The value of life is not a religious interpretation but a human value to be embraced by all humans. Religion may be a vehicle to give lessons in morality but a lack of religion does not mean a lack of morals just as claiming a faith does not make one moral.

The value of human life is the foundation to all mans actions and whatever sets that foundation to the individual is relative to their actions and beliefs. Since many Christians are pro-abortion and pro-war in America the teachings of Christ could be said to be relative to the situation. If I believed that I might as well be Muslim.

If relativism with or without religion is not responsible theft and murder then what is?

I’m unable to see your point other than you simply said the same thing I did in a different way. The term is highly overused here and on any relligious forum as a means of avoiding really saying anything. You just have to slap the speaker as being engaged in relativism and you are off the hook. I don’t thnk so.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I believe Christianity, and Catholicism in particular, saved Western Europe during the Middle Ages, and in the process, permanently molded the thinking of Westerners, whether they realize it or not. Western Man’s greatness, as the master of advanced civilization, stems directly from his Christian psychology and identity (again…even in the case of atheists, they who possess a Christian conscience and sense of ethics and morality, which they inherited from a society based on Judeo-Christian thought). As long as Western Man remains Christian, he will survive the troubles of this world. If and when he abandons Christ, however, which he’s doing most tragically in Europe, he will perish. Without Christianity, he is nothing.

While I don’t deny in any way Catholic contributions to the survival of much of learning during the Middle ages, equal contributions and moreoever outright advances were made by both Jewish and Muslim scholars. We owe a huge thanks to Muslim contributions to mathemathics for instance.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I am well rebuked. I did not carefully choose my words so I apologize for this. My thought here is that the ten commandments are a guide for our morality. I did not mean to condemn those before the ten commandments. Hope that sounds better!