Is sacred tradition more holy than scripture?

[Padres1969]

Well, yes, but what I am trying to say is, in traditions where Scripture’s “leg” is made much longer than the other two legs, then we have an instability problem. Now, I don’t know how much longer this “leg” is in the Anglican tradition, but in the “Bible-only” churches, we can see it can be problematic.

It’s not that much longer. Keep in mind, Anglicanism is not a “bible only” church any more than Catholicism is. Both count tradition as an important part of what makes up the faith.

 

[Micosil]

It’s not that much longer. Keep in mind, Anglicanism is not a “bible only” church any more than Catholicism is. Both count tradition as an important part of what makes up the faith.

I see. Would you say that the Bible leg being longer makes Sacred Scripture “holier” than Tradition? Because the way I see, in Catholicism (and probably Orthodoxy as well I assume, don’t quote me on that), I am not sure which leg is “longer”, but both Scripture and Tradition are considered holy in equal amounts. It is considered as the two modes of transmission of the Apostolic Tradition.

II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE

One common source. . .

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 “Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.”

“And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching.”

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, “does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.”

 

[hasantas]

Hi h,

Ok. I understand that God is and had eternal attributes. The flesh , this world, has a beginning. OK.

Yet we are made in His image, unlike a “bush or a storm” . How is that so? Why could not God then taken on flesh also ? He certainly as God in man , did not loose any attributes of oneness holiness, perfection,power etc etc etc.

Agree that an image is only image as mirror. Yes Jesus as a fleshly man was that of a man. But we also state that He was God at the same time. God is a spirit. So is man. Can you see the common denominator spirit, and how God could be in a man?

Jesus the man was the perfect mirror of God because He was also fully God.

This is both scriptural and tradition. When the tradition was challenged (by Arius), Athanasius came to the rescue, by rightly dividing and proclaiming the Written Word of God on the matter.

Blessings

God is not a spirit! Where did you take that from?

Spirit has a kind of matter or essence which is not sort of we know. But if you say eternal essence of God is a spirit then there occur many conflicts. Spirit can or is used to settle or stand in time and space. But eternal essence is never in time and space. Being manifest is different from incarnation. So eternal essence of God did not dwell in body of Jesus but eternal essence became/may manifest through soul of Jesus. You Christians think that being manifest through soul as if the eternal essence itself incarnated and assumed soul. Eternal essence assume soul as a mirror but never incarnate into mortal soul. In that way God may become manifest through every soul but that soul should be ready to hold manifestation by faith and moral.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

hasantas;13744077]OK. Qur’an does not elaborate about Trinity. But Qur’an say not to associate other deities beside God! So if someone claim for other being to be part of divinity then it conflict with Qur’an. There is no need for deatils of that thought.

The Quran does not teach or speak of the True divine Trinity. The Quran is not addressing the True Trinity, when it speaks of “associate other deities beside God”.

I asked you? Does your protested view of the True Trinity comes from Quran or Islam tradition? We agree it does not come from the Quran, because "the Quran does not elaborate about Trinity.

When the Quran addresses “associate” or other deities beside God, is not addressing the True Trinity. When the Quran is written, it addresses it’s immediate Pagan religions of the time, that it conquered among the Arab territories, who were Pagans who associated other deities with God.

Somehow; your Islamic tradition or human false opinion’s, conflict with the Quran, when it protest against a misunderstanding of the True Trinity. By making the false claim that each person of the Trinity are separate deities associated with God.

You said; “There is no need for details of that thought”. I beg to differ with you here. How are you going to get a correct understanding of the True Trinity, if? you continue to take a false definition of the True Trinity from those who do not believe in the True Trinity? We must engage in dialogue, lest you continue down a path of deception that misleads a false understanding of the True divinely revealed Trinity.

I would respect your protest against the True Trinity if you can show me, you have gained a True understanding of the Trinity as professed since Jesus Christ revealed the Trinity. So long as Islam continues to portray a false misconception of the True Trinity, your opinion’s of the Trinity from Islam is not correct and cannot be accepted in any circles of religion.

I asked you? Does your Quran or tradition separate God from His Voice, Word and Breath? The Trinity never divides or separates God’s Voice, Word and Breath from God who is Living and Life itself.

Yet you pretend to use the Quran, by mistaking the Trinity and applying the Voice, Word and Breath of God as all being separated and divided as false associates to God.

The Trinity is One God, when God makes His presence known in creation by His Voice, Word and Breath.

We are created in God’s Image. When you speak, does not your voice, word and breath proceed from your being? Or do you divide your being falsely from your voice, word and breath as you do the True Trinity? When the True Trinity is One God and no other.

When you make the false claim of the True Trinity, by your own admission, you are falsely dividing the ONE GOD into three different false deities, which does not exist in Catholicism or the True Trinity.

Fact; The Church, Scripture, Sacred Oral Tradition never makes the claim that can define God or exhaust the meaning of the Trinity. The Church herself never professes to define the Trinity. Trinity remains suspended in faith, that is revealed in both the OT, NT, Prophets of God and Oral Sacred Tradition.

Because your Quran does not teach or protest against the True Trinity. We can say the Quran can never define God, nor does it define or attempt to define the True Trinity.

Father is God and there is no any other God. If you stand at that point so there is no problem.

But, Islam has a problem with it. Because it denies that God never revealed HIS presence to our humanity, by His Voice, Word and Breath which is the Trinity in presence, not Essence revealed, because you misplace and misunderstand God’s (Trinity) presence as different false deities, when the Trinity of persons are never divided nor separated in One Divine Essence One God.

The True Trinity professed in faith, is the Voice, Word and Breath of God, who are distinct from another in Presence, yet eternally ONE GOD in Essence being.

cont;

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cont;

But if you claim for a human to be God then that conflict with Qur’an indeed not just with Qur’an also it conflict with both OT and NT. Jesus was % 100 human.

**The True Trinity never professes that Gods Essence is human, this appears to be your Islamic misinformed and misunderstanding, about the difference between God’s Essence and God’s presence, which is never separated. As I informed you in an earlier post, that God’s Essence does not come down to us. But God’s Presence does come down to us in revelation Trinity supported and witnessed by, both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition

**. Let us be clear here. The Trinity never defines but only points to God’s Voice, Word and Breath as all three distinct in presence in time and space. But God’s Trinity= Voice, Word and Breath is One God in divine Essence.

Because God willed to reveal His presence in time and space in the burning bush. Islam does not think God is a burning bush? God can will to reveal His presence at any time and anywhere. Scripture and Oral Sacred Tradition both teach and record that God revealed His Presence not Essence in His Voice, Word and Breath.

Once we get passed this stage of the divine Trinity that is never divided or separated, we can begin baby steps towards how God revealed His Voice, His Word and His Breath with creation, space, and time.

Or, Can you prove to me where your Quran or tradition protests against the Trinity as explained above?

So please, do not separate the True Trinity as dividing or separating God’s Voice, Word and Breath of life. Because we Catholics never divide God as you pretend to do with a false misunderstanding of the True Trinity, which your Quran never addresses. Even thou, the Trinity revelations predates the Quran and Muhammad.

Now! In what should we believe? Should we believe in people or scriptures?

Neither; We are called to believe in One God and no other. When it is God who teaches us; John 6:45 It is written in the prophets: ‘They shall all be taught by God.’
Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me; (quote by Jesus Christ)

I do not believe in the scriptures alone, when they are just words on a page for any man to mis- interpret them to become doctrines made by men.

The Sacred Scriptures is the Word of God that moves man in the True Spirit of God, It is here where God reveals God from God.

If you pretend to read God’s Word without the Spirit of God, then you have scriptures of contradiction, because God’s thoughts are not human thoughts.

In summary; You agree that your Quran does not elaborate on the True Trinity. I revealed to you that the Trinity is never an association of different deities, which your Quran addresses Paganology or Polytheism, in the time when it was written.

Explain where do you get your understanding of the True Trinity of God? Is it from your own interpretation of the Quran or tradition from men, or other? Your view of the True Trinity does not come from your Quran, nor is it believed or accepted by Catholics in all ages, including those Catholics before Islam religion or followers of Islam existed.

 

[hasantas]

The Quran does not teach or speak of the True divine Trinity. The Quran is not addressing the True Trinity, when it speaks of “associate other deities beside God”.

I asked you? Does your protested view of the True Trinity comes from Quran or Islam tradition? We agree it does not come from the Quran, because "the Quran does not elaborate about Trinity.

When the Quran addresses “associate” or other deities beside God, is not addressing the True Trinity. When the Quran is written, it addresses it’s immediate Pagan religions of the time, that it conquered among the Arab territories, who were Pagans who associated other deities with God.

…
cont;

Your Trinity three persons in one being is what:Jesus+Holy Spirit+Father=God or Jesus=Holy Spirit=Father=God?

But both seems problematic. If first is true then God must be consist of three seperate persons. If second is true then there should be three seperate gods!

Qur’an is revelation from God. Bible is revelation from God. Jesus is prophet of God. Even let’s assume that Jesus is God himself. You claim that Jesus(God) had taught apostles that God is consist of Holy Spirit and Son and Father. But why did not Jesus(God) reveale himself as triune God in OT and NT? And why did not God reveale and not approve that God is triune in Qur’an? That is not honest and there is no belief for Qur’an as revelation from God because you said when Qur’an was written(but not revealed!) When I look at Gospels I do not see Trinity but I see Father and Son and Holy Spirit. Yes Son and Father and Holy Spirit are stated in Gospels but Just for Father the term of God is called. And that match Qur’an very clear. There is no conflict into scriptures!

There is no definition of Trinity in Qur’an. But there is no anything about triune nature of God either. God explain attribution of divinity very clearly in Qur’an but why not to explain Trinity? Because there is no such thing. There is no true Trinity as your conjecture. From beginning to end God say “one” but nothing else. There is no sense insist on saying Qur’an do not tell about true Trinity. You assume as if Muhammad had written Qur’an by Himself and He could not understand description Trinity of Catechism. That is strange!

 

[Starwarsfan2]

Your Trinity three persons in one being is what:Jesus+Holy Spirit+Father=God or Jesus=Holy Spirit=Father=God?

But both seems problematic. If first is true then God must be consist of three seperate persons. If second is true then there should be three seperate gods!

Qur’an is revelation from God. Bible is revelation from God. Jesus is prophet of God. Even let’s assume that Jesus is God himself. You claim that Jesus(God) had taught apostles that God is consist of Holy Spirit and Son and Father. But why did not Jesus(God) reveale himself as triune God in OT and NT? And why did not God reveale and not approve that God is triune in Qur’an? That is not honest and there is no belief for Qur’an as revelation from God because you said when Qur’an was written(but not revealed!) When I look at Gospels I do not see Trinity but I see Father and Son and Holy Spirit. Yes Son and Father and Holy Spirit are stated in Gospels but Just for Father the term of God is called. And that match Qur’an very clear. There is no conflict into scriptures!

There is no definition of Trinity in Qur’an. But there is no anything about triune nature of God either. God explain attribution of divinity very clearly in Qur’an but why not to explain Trinity? Because there is no such thing. There is no true Trinity as your conjecture. From beginning to end God say “one” but nothing else. There is no sense insist on saying Qur’an do not tell about true Trinity. You assume as if Muhammad had written Qur’an by Himself and He could not understand description Trinity of Catechism. That is strange!

There is One God , that has been shown
The father is the first person , that has been shown

1. Jesus is called the ETERNAL logos
2. Equal with God
   3.He is omnipresent
3. All powerful

As for the Holy Spirit

1. He has always existed
   2 . Is called equal with the Son

This has been revealed in the Holy Scriptures , the Quran is not revelation.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

hasantas;13747790]Your Trinity three persons in one being is what:Jesus+Holy Spirit+Father=God or Jesus=Holy Spirit=Father=God?

But both seems problematic. If first is true then God must be consist of three seperate persons. If second is true then there should be three seperate gods!

Your definition of “three persons” as you apply them here, according to your understanding, is never the True Trinity of Persons;

Persons according to your understanding that has carnal connotations, would imply a multiplicity of different deities, which is never described within the scope and understanding of Person within the True Trinity. Your view of person and the correct Trinity view or understanding of person are in direct contradiction. They are never the same. That is why it is difficult for a Muslim to grasp at the divine revelation of the Trinity in Presence.

Instead of going into the original Greek, Latin expression of persons pertaining to hyposis, hypostatic union and the nature of God, which are terms that describe spiritual realities described in spiritual terms. The Quran or Islam has not graduated from these ancient spiritual theological exercises of the divine, Islam remains in it’s infancy here, because either Islam deny them and do not understand them with the mind of Jesus Christ, and the Quran see’s no need to repeat a divine revelation of God, when God had already revealed the Trinity centuries before the Quran was written. to the people of the book.

To keep our discussion short; Let us understand that when the True Trinity is describing “Persons” it is relating to the fact, that God is Present or God’s presence and divine revelation is made known within space and time. Person in Trinity never attempts to describes God’s Essence. When God’s Essence is veiled in God’s Presence.
God cannot reveal His Essence in space and time, because space and time and all that exists will cease to exist. This why God sends His Word to become flesh for humanity’s sake.

Suffice it to say; When God is present in His Voice, Word and Breath. The Voice of God is living eternally, thus were we begin to recognize in faith that God is never dead but living or Person (al) in His Voice, Word and Breath.

The Voice is the Father, the Word is the Son, the Breath is the Holy Spirit. Each presence of God is eternal living, that has no beginning and no end, who can never taste death. As death enters man, and when man speaks, his voice, word and breath begin and end.
What the carnal mind relates a “Person” too, is one who is living, described to one’s own person being.

In the Trinity of Person’s, Person is describing a divine Presence made known. The Person or Presence of God has no beginning and no end. Just scripture reveals that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega. To be the beginning and end of all things in Presence is God in Presence or Person.

So when Catholics use the word Person in relation to the Trinity. Each Person or Presence of God is eternal living without beginning or end. It would appear your application of person to the trinity remains grounded to an entity that has limits to space and time.

When the Trinity of persons, that you subscribe too, are limited to space and time. Thus Person’s of the True Trinity for our discussion is describing the Person as being the True Presence of God revealed in space and time.

You have not answered my question; From when and where do you get your interpretation of your view of the Trinity? Quran, Islamic tradition or other? I ask this, because it can get to the root of your written or oral traditions which appears to reveal an incorrect understanding of the True Trinity that Jesus revealed as being One God revealed in the Voice, Word and Breath of God.

cont;

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cont;

Qur’an is revelation from God. Bible is revelation from God. Jesus is prophet of God. Even let’s assume that Jesus is God himself. You claim that Jesus(God) had taught apostles that God is consist of Holy Spirit and Son and Father. But why did not Jesus(God) reveale himself as triune God in OT and NT?

God spoke to the prophets and patriarchs in the Old Testament via, His Voice, His Word and His Breath. The reason the Word of God spoken through the prophets do not reveal the Trinity, is because God did not send us His Breath (Holy Spirit) for man to understand the True Presence of God.

Yet in the fullness of times (God’s time) The Word of God fulfilled all that was revealed to the prophets through His Word in Presence born Incarnate, so as not to viloate God’s creation laws, the Word took on flesh and became Present to our humanity to fulfill ALL the prophets and psalms and the law of Moses.

When Jesus speaks from His Flesh, Jesus speaks on behalf of all humanity to the Father in heaven, when the Father (God’s presence in Voice) never proceeds, only His Word and Breath proceeds from the Father.

Any time you read the Old Testament, You are reading the presence of the Word of God, that veils the Essence of God, who incarnated in Jesus, who sends us the Holy Spirit, who reveals to our minds the presence of God in His voice, Word and Breath.
Here is Jesus speaking in the fullness of times, I pray and thank you for taking the time to read my post and respond to them;

Luke 24: 26 Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer* these things and enter into his glory?” 27Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them what referred to him in all the scriptures

Luke 24:45 He said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and in the prophets and psalms must be fulfilled.”w 45Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures

And why did not God reveale and not approve that God is triune in Qur’an?

Maybe; Because already revealed the Trinity throughout human history long before the Quran was recited by Muhammad. God does not repeat Himself. Maybe that is why the people of the Quran should respect the people of the book, who Jesus revealed God in Trinity presence.

That is not honest and there is no belief for Qur’an as revelation from God because you said when Qur’an was written(but not revealed!) When I look at Gospels I do not see Trinity but I see Father and Son and Holy Spirit. Yes Son and Father and Holy Spirit are stated in Gospels but Just for Father the term of God is called. And that match Qur’an very clear. There is no conflict into scriptures!

The Word of God does not contradict. But man can reject or refuse to believe What God revealed in His Presence by Voice = Father, Word =Son, Breath = Holy Spirit.
What God has spoken (Voice), God moved men to write (Word), what God revealed ( God’s breath) to the prophets, understanding and divine revelation in presence. All three presence of God reveal the Trinity of presence of persons.

There is no definition of Trinity in Qur’an. But there is no anything about triune nature of God either.

I agree, the Quran does not dispute or teach about the True Trinity. That is why I asked you, where do you get your information to protest against the divine revelation of Trinity, that Jesus revealed to our humanity? There is no definition on this side of heaven that can define the True Trinity. All that I have revealed to you, does not define the Trinity, in fact no man claims to understand the Trinity = God in presence.

The Quran does not speak of God’s presence as when Jesus revealed God’s presence. The Quran reveals attributes of God, but not His divine presence in space and time. It is good that God revealed the Quran to Muhammad to convert the lost Pagan Arabs. But the Quran is silent against the True divine Trinity =Presence of God.

God explain attribution of divinity very clearly in Qur’an but why not to explain Trinity? Because there is no such thing.

God never writes, and God never mentions Muhammad, and God never revealed Islam would convert the Arab Pagans to believe in One God, Does that mean, Islam or it’s prophet did not or does not exist? I hear what you are saying, but it is a straw man’s argument.

There is no true Trinity as your conjecture. From beginning to end God say “one” but nothing else. There is no sense insist on saying Qur’an do not tell about true Trinity. You assume as if Muhammad had written Qur’an by Himself and He could not understand description Trinity of Catechism. That is strange!

I understand Muhammad’s brother in law was a condemned heretic Christian Arian priest, who believed in a false Trinity, which appears to be the same misunderstanding, you reveal about a false trinity the Quran alludes too. I can only guess, this is where you may get your misunderstandings of the True Trinity, and why the Quran does not reveal or protest against the True Trinity.

 

[benhur]

God is not a spirit! Where did you take that from?

Hi h,

John4:24 "God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

But eternal essence is never in time and space.

Ok so he is beyond time and space but it is impossible for God to also be in time and space? He does not dwell with us, interact with us save thru “mirrors/angels”?

Blessings

 

[clem456]

Your Trinity three persons in one being is what:Jesus+Holy Spirit+Father=God or Jesus=Holy Spirit=Father=God?

But both seems problematic. If first is true then God must be consist of three seperate persons. If second is true then there should be three seperate gods!

Qur’an is revelation from God. Bible is revelation from God. Jesus is prophet of God. Even let’s assume that Jesus is God himself. You claim that Jesus(God) had taught apostles that God is consist of Holy Spirit and Son and Father. But why did not Jesus(God) reveale himself as triune God in OT and NT? And why did not God reveale and not approve that God is triune in Qur’an? That is not honest and there is no belief for Qur’an as revelation from God because you said when Qur’an was written(but not revealed!) When I look at Gospels I do not see Trinity but I see Father and Son and Holy Spirit. Yes Son and Father and Holy Spirit are stated in Gospels but Just for Father the term of God is called. And that match Qur’an very clear. There is no conflict into scriptures!

There is no definition of Trinity in Qur’an. But there is no anything about triune nature of God either. God explain attribution of divinity very clearly in Qur’an but why not to explain Trinity? Because there is no such thing. There is no true Trinity as your conjecture. From beginning to end God say “one” but nothing else. There is no sense insist on saying Qur’an do not tell about true Trinity. You assume as if Muhammad had written Qur’an by Himself and He could not understand description Trinity of Catechism. That is strange!

We believe that God has logos, which is to say he is reason-able. We can know him, as he wills it.
So God is relational. God is love. Love relates, it desires to know and be known. Love is not turned inward, it pours itself out to others.
If God is loving, in fact is love itself, then he must be a community. A community is more than one person. God is a communion, and that communion is the love between divine persons. One person cannot be love on his own.

You picture a distant, im-personal, and self enclosed God. If God is like this, how does creation come about? What do you believe creation is? If a being is self absorbed and distant, he does not create, he absorbs to himself.

Also, the idea that God cannot enter time and space is lacking, to say the least. Do you believe that God is omnipotent, or do you not? If he is omnipotent, why do you limit him in this way? It’s as if you forbid him to be in time and space, as he wills.
God is not bound by time and space, he transcends it. This transcendence is not exclusive of the matter, in is inclusive.
If he wills to enter time and space and reveal himself, he can do that.

Or maybe your god is not very powerful.

 

[hasantas]

Hi h,

John4:24 "God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Ok so he is beyond time and space but it is impossible for God to also be in time and space? He does not dwell with us, interact with us save thru “mirrors/angels”?

Blessings

John4:24 "God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

That is clear which say God is spirit. So do Christians scholar interpret that God is a spirit as human got?

My interpretation is that: God is not consist of material and God can be known and worshiped just by spirit.

God effect and manifest to us through mirrors. The essence of God surround all times and spaces. There is no need to say can not God be in time and space. Eternal essence create time and space. Matters are emerged and created from power and will of God. Incarnation of God means that God transform some part of eternal essence into carnal!

Or perhaps you mean God dwell into matter by eternal essence. That seem as if it possible! I will try in that way: Our thoughts and mooral senses are not material. Could you dwell your thoughts into a box?

Can you see the relation between eternal and carnal? Eternal essence surpass, surround, involve matters.

 

[hasantas]

We believe that God has logos, which is to say he is reason-able. We can know him, as he wills it.
So God is relational. God is love. Love relates, it desires to know and be known. Love is not turned inward, it pours itself out to others.
If God is loving, in fact is love itself, then he must be a community. A community is more than one person. God is a communion, and that communion is the love between divine persons. One person cannot be love on his own.

You picture a distant, im-personal, and self enclosed God. If God is like this, how does creation come about? What do you believe creation is? If a being is self absorbed and distant, he does not create, he absorbs to himself.

Also, the idea that God cannot enter time and space is lacking, to say the least. Do you believe that God is omnipotent, or do you not? If he is omnipotent, why do you limit him in this way? It’s as if you forbid him to be in time and space, as he wills.
God is not bound by time and space, he transcends it. This transcendence is not exclusive of the matter, in is inclusive.
If he wills to enter time and space and reveal himself, he can do that.

Or maybe your god is not very powerful.

God will to be known and so God had sent thousands of prophets. God is omnipotent. But if you put God into time and matter then you make God impotent and bound by time and matter.

 

[hasantas]

Your definition of “three persons” as you apply them here, according to your understanding, is never the True Trinity of Persons;

Persons according to your understanding that has carnal connotations, would imply a multiplicity of different deities, which is never described within the scope and understanding of Person within the True Trinity. Your view of person and the correct Trinity view or understanding of person are in direct contradiction. They are never the same. That is why it is difficult for a Muslim to grasp at the divine revelation of the Trinity in Presence.

Instead of going into the original Greek, Latin expression of persons pertaining to hyposis, hypostatic union and the nature of God, which are terms that describe spiritual realities described in spiritual terms. The Quran or Islam has not graduated from these ancient spiritual theological exercises of the divine, Islam remains in it’s infancy here, because either Islam deny them and do not understand them with the mind of Jesus Christ, and the Quran see’s no need to repeat a divine revelation of God, when God had already revealed the Trinity centuries before the Quran was written. to the people of the book.

To keep our discussion short; Let us understand that when the True Trinity is describing “Persons” it is relating to the fact, that God is Present or God’s presence and divine revelation is made known within space and time. Person in Trinity never attempts to describes God’s Essence. When God’s Essence is veiled in God’s Presence.
God cannot reveal His Essence in space and time, because space and time and all that exists will cease to exist. This why God sends His Word to become flesh for humanity’s sake.

Suffice it to say; When God is present in His Voice, Word and Breath. The Voice of God is living eternally, thus were we begin to recognize in faith that God is never dead but living or Person (al) in His Voice, Word and Breath.

The Voice is the Father, the Word is the Son, the Breath is the Holy Spirit. Each presence of God is eternal living, that has no beginning and no end, who can never taste death. As death enters man, and when man speaks, his voice, word and breath begin and end.
What the carnal mind relates a “Person” too, is one who is living, described to one’s own person being.

In the Trinity of Person’s, Person is describing a divine Presence made known. The Person or Presence of God has no beginning and no end. Just scripture reveals that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega. To be the beginning and end of all things in Presence is God in Presence or Person.

So when Catholics use the word Person in relation to the Trinity. Each Person or Presence of God is eternal living without beginning or end. It would appear your application of person to the trinity remains grounded to an entity that has limits to space and time.

When the Trinity of persons, that you subscribe too, are limited to space and time. Thus Person’s of the True Trinity for our discussion is describing the Person as being the True Presence of God revealed in space and time.

You have not answered my question; From when and where do you get your interpretation of your view of the Trinity? Quran, Islamic tradition or other? I ask this, because it can get to the root of your written or oral traditions which appears to reveal an incorrect understanding of the True Trinity that Jesus revealed as being One God revealed in the Voice, Word and Breath of God.

cont;

If you could use more short and simple sentences it will be easiness for me, please.

I will oppose some things. Jesus had never revealed(informed) anything to apostles about triune God. And He never claimed to be God or an incarnation God or some part of deity. Can you bring any verse in which Jesus claimed such thing? I can bring many in which Jesus said that He was a prophet and human. But if you assert that Jesus had informed apostles in very secrecy and mysterious ways then I am not interest in those.

Islam is not far away from spirituality. And if Qur’an is revelation from God then Qur’an would reveal about Trinity very clearly(Yet Bible did not!).

I agree with those eternal essence of God is not comprehensible but presence of eternal essence could be known through time and space. Our points of differences start after here.

And your understanding way to work out that:God is present in His Voice, Word and Breath.

Firstly the term breath of God is meatphorical. Holy Spirit is the mediator of revelation. By that revelation the eternal essence is known. Bot Holy Spirit had got form of a dove! And Holy Spirit travel in time and space! That shows Holy Spirit is not part of deity but a divine law which was cerated by God. (Breath of a man state power and soverignty as metaphorical). By that law God inform about deity. There is no need for eternal essence to get form or move in time and space. Eternal essence can act and effect time and space. God is living without time.

Word. Jesus is word of God and also that is metaphorical too. The essence of word of God is eternal but Jesus was consist of flesh and blood. Word of God create flesh but is not itself.

Voice. God cerate voices for us to hear. So when God speak through a bush the voice which is being heard through bush is creature wave of voice but not eternal essence of God’s voice.

And also if Jesus was % 100 human then what about His soul? Were there both eternal essence of God and soul of Jesus in body? And how could both reconcile? Which of them run and animate body? etc etc. Could you elaborate that!

 

[benhur]

That is clear which say God is spirit. So do Christians scholar interpret that God is a spirit as human got?

Do not know about all, but yes , we are made in His image. He breathed His spiritual life into us.

My interpretation is that: God is not consist of material and God can be known and worshiped just by spirit.

yes , such contrary teaching has been around since the beginning,that God was not incarnate in fleshly Christ.

Incarnation of God means that God transform some part of eternal essence into carnal!

yes, out of love and necessity to cover , take away our sin.

Or perhaps you mean God dwell into matter by eternal essence. That seem as if it possible! I will try in that way: Our thoughts and mooral senses are not material. Could you dwell your thoughts into a box?

Apparently spirits,essence likes, inhabits “boxes”. A dead man was dragged across the bones of a long dead Elijah, and came back to life. The anointing of God was in them bones still.

Can you see the relation between eternal and carnal? Eternal essence surpass, surround, involve matters.

yes, so what is wrong with Incarnation ?

Blessings

 

[hasantas]

Do not know about all, but yes , we are made in His image. He breathed His spiritual life into us.
yes , such contrary teaching has been around since the beginning,that God was not incarnate in fleshly Christ.
yes, out of love and necessity to cover , take away our sin.
Apparently spirits,essence likes, inhabits “boxes”. A dead man was dragged across the bones of a long dead Elijah, and came back to life. The anointing of God was in them bones still.
yes, so what is wrong with Incarnation ?

Blessings

Eternal essence do not transform into material being but create matter!

 

[clem456]

God will to be known and so God had sent thousands of prophets. God is omnipotent. But if you put God into time and matter then you make God impotent and bound by time and matter.

So you say.
In saying so, you bind God to your very self.

You claim God is omnipotent and in the next breath you claim there is something he cannot do.

You can’t have it both ways. He can either do whatever he please, or he is limited by you.
Which is it?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Please forgive my long post’s, I will make an effort to be short in explaining and correcting your misconceptions of my Catholic faith from sacred scripture and sacred Tradition. In doing so, I hope to give you the respect in answering your objections.

hasantas;13751956]I will oppose some things. Jesus had never revealed(informed) anything to apostles about triune God.

Jesus not only revealed the Trinity, at His baptism. After the resurrection Jesus commissioned His disciples to baptize ALL nations in the name of the Trinity. Matthew 28:19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, 20i teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

The Incarnation is revealed both in the Holy Scriptures and the Quran revealed from the Virgin Birth, the prophets, and the Law, all speak of the incarnation.
The Virgin birth of Jesus Christ is what we have in common. **You would be a good Muslim if you obeyed the Quran here; Please take notice how the Quran correctly places God speaking in the Plural “We”.Sura 10:94 **God told Muhammad; that if you doubt the Quran in what WE have revealed unto you, you should ask the people of the book. The Quran teaches Muslim to consult the People of the book, not to consult the book by themselves.

Catholicism and Quran both agree that the True Trinity does not consist of the Father, Son and the Virgin Mary. Muslims need to consult the people of the book who received the True Trinity from divine revelation and should not consult the book alone, of which they do not understand Sacred Scripture that is interpreted according to Apostolic Oral Sacred Traditions and read under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Here the Muslim should consult the people of the book (Catholic Church and Jewish Christians), before Muslims reject what they do not understand about the True Trinity and the incarnation.

I agree with those eternal essence of God is not comprehensible but presence of eternal essence could be known through time and space. "Holy Spirit is the mediator of revelation. By that revelation the eternal essence is known "

The Essence of God’s presence is not revealed in space and time. The True Essence of God is veiled in the presence of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. What you mistakenly speak of as being God’s Essence, belong in the category of attributes and manifestations of God’s revelation.** NO one can see God’s Essence and live**.

God revealed His presence in His Holy Spirit who teaches us and reveals to us, everything Jesus Christ divinely revealed to our humanity. It is here, when it is God who teaches us.

Never from our carnal minds and carnal understanding do we place our faith as the Father being a biological Father to Jesus. There is much more to dialogue here.

cont;

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cont;

Firstly the term breath of God is meatphorical.

If you falsely claim? that the Voice is separated from the Word, and the Breath of God is separated from the Voice and Word of God, and then, mistakenly claim the breath of God is metaphorical, then you have left your faith and reject that God cannot speak or reveal divine revelation.

No where in the bible or the Quran does it ever relate God’s presence as being metaphorical. Catholics never believe in a metaphorical God.

Bot Holy Spirit had got form of a dove! And Holy Spirit travel in time and space! That shows Holy Spirit is not part of deity but a divine law which was cerated by God.

God revealed the Trinity at Jesus baptism in the Jordan. After the Son rose from the darkness of the waters (chaos), the heavens had now been opened for His full Humanity to access heaven with His full humanity on our behalf.

While, God the Father’s presence is revealed in His Voice from heaven, that is heard and proclaimed in presence; Jesus Christ; “Is My Beloved Son”.

**The prophet John the baptist is the one who testified, that He saw the Holy Spirit descending “LIKE a dove”. **Catholics believe that God is Love, and that Love proceeds eternally between from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. The prophet saw God who is Love, move or proceed “like a dove” that was made present in time and space

John never say’s that the Holy Spirit is a dove. John revealed Love who is God, Love proceeding God (Love) from God (Love) “like a dove”. Please correct your misunderstanding, that Catholics do not believe God the Holy Spirit is a dove.

And also if Jesus was % 100 human then what about His soul? Were there both eternal essence of God and soul of Jesus in body? And how could both reconcile? Which of them run and animate body? etc etc. Could you elaborate that!

In short; The presence God revealed in time and space, Incarnated veils the eternal Essence of God, which does not come down to us, less we all die.

God calls us to faith here, revealed from sacred Scripture and believed and professed in from sacred Tradition; who God revealed through human testimony who Jesus Christ revealed who He is;

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one captivate you with an empty, seductive philosophy according to human tradition, according to the elemental powers of the world* and not according to Christ.9 *For in him dwells the whole fullness of the deity bodily,

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God,** the firstborn of all creation. 16For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he himself might be preeminent. 19For in him all the fullness was pleased to dwell, 20and through him to reconcile all things for him, making peace by the blood of his cross [through him], whether those on earth or those in heaven

Hassantas; Does your Quran or tradition believe what the Word of God divinely revealed that; “God created them male and female in the image and likeness of God”. Or is it blasephemy for a Muslim to believe that God created us in His Image and likeness?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I would like to propose a subject in regards to tradition (Hadith) and from the Quran, from which of the following list; does one form in practice from Tradition (Hadith) or Quran?

Is it Islam’s tradition or from the Quran or both; that reveals two separate houses in Islam?

1. The House of Islam is for all Muslims, and in this house a Muslim’s sin is forgiven by God.
   In the House of Islam; that is for all Muslims; does not include ALL OF HUMANITY. Is it from this house where “God ONLY loves the believer?”
2. In Islam; There is also a House of War; This House of War in Islam, is for ALL the unbelievers. In this house, sin is not forgiven by God. The rest of Humanity that is in Islam’s House of War. Is it in this house of Islam where “God hates the sinner?”

Does the divided house of Islam’s view of humanity, a practice and faith from Islam’s tradition or the Quran? Is this divided house in Islam considered Holy?

Can this divided humanity be reconciled under One God Creator, without having to convert to the House of Islam that is only for Muslims?