M
MartinJordan
Guest
When scripture is not read fully (like when one reads Jesus talking but fail to allow the continuation of his discourse) how do those who employ this even debate Tradition vs Scripture? So odd.
MJ
MJ
- Status
H
hasantas
Guest
God have eternal attributions. We cannot conceive God in a manner by which conflict with attributions. For instance God is omnipotent but God do not injustice. If God never do injustice so is God impotent?So you say.
In saying so, you bind God to your very self.
You claim God is omnipotent and in the next breath you claim there is something he cannot do.
You can’t have it both ways. He can either do whatever he please, or he is limited by you.
Which is it?
God is eternal and that is an attribution of God. So if you say such thing which conflict with eternity then that is wrong. God is always eternal. Eternity is always out of time and matter. God can see everything. So God is not used to see sometimes and cannot see other times. Or God hear everything. There is no exception of eternal attributions. If God is eternal but that means God is always eternal.
When you say God incarnate then you conflict with many attributions. God is omnipotent and God is untainted from evey imperfection.
You question is nonsense in that way: Could God create a stone which is bigger than Himself? I ask : Can God create such thing which is big or more strong than Himself? If you say no then you mean God is not omnipotent!
M
MartinJordan
Guest
We don’t “say” God incarnate. He did incarnate. But it makes you angry. Sorry friend. God is Love and His Love is unconditional. Love is more important than stones.God loved the world so much he sent his only Son.
He’s not going to send stones to people show how to Love.
MJ
I
IgnatianPhilo
Guest
If we were to suggest that the essence of the humanity of Christ were the exact same as the essence of the divinity of Christ, that they were one essence instead of two essences being shared by the One Jesus Christ then you might have a point.
When we say God is incarnate we ultimately agree we are saying something which we can’t explain despite centuries of formulation. Though it would help you perhaps to learn what the saints have said concerning who Jesus is, the unity between his humanity and divinity. That “sacred tradition” exists for the reason of illuminating questions such as these which arise from difficulties encountered in the scripture.
In the course of this conversation Hasantas, has anyone told you that sacred scripture is less holy than sacred tradition?
C
clem456
Guest
Allow me to make an observation that is evident to everyone here but you.
You claim that an omnipotent God cannot taint himself to reveal himself “incarne”, that would be an “imperfection” in your view.
Yet you are here, telling us about the nature of God.
How do you know anything of God, if he did not taint himself, by condescending to your human condition? You are a human being, correct? And you know something of who God is.
Your very presence here, making assertions about who God is, testifies to the reality of God’s revealing of himself to mere human beings, like you and like me.
If God did not pierce through his incomprehensible majesty to become “Logos”, *you would not be able to utter one sentence about him. *
“Logos”=“reason-able”.
God condescends in a way that you find offensive, *yet you yourself testify to it with your knowledge of him. *
You call that “tainted”, we call that complete love.
E
eddie_too
Guest
Sacred Tradition precedes Sacred Scripture, although not by very much since there are those who have made the study of Sacred Scripture the fruit of their lives who believe that the Gospel of Matthew was composed for the most part by the apostles as a group before they dispersed to preach the Gospel to the world. having said that, i am not inclined to say that its coming first makes Sacred Tradition more holy.
God, through the Third Person of the Holy Trinity (whom was revealed to us as the Holy Spirit) sanctifies both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.
knowing that, i would be inclined to say that neither is more holy than the other.
however, Sacred Tradition is necessary for Sacred Scripture to be used as God intended it to be used. also, Sacred Scripture provides a real limit to what can be declared as coming to us through Sacred Tradition.
God, through the Third Person of the Holy Trinity (whom was revealed to us as the Holy Spirit) sanctifies both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.
knowing that, i would be inclined to say that neither is more holy than the other.
however, Sacred Tradition is necessary for Sacred Scripture to be used as God intended it to be used. also, Sacred Scripture provides a real limit to what can be declared as coming to us through Sacred Tradition.
H
hasantas
Guest
The best God know about Deity. God is omniscience and God revealed some wisdom of Godhead. God explain knowledges about Himself through scriptures. I did not say anything from myself but from scriptures. The fact is in scritures not in some philosophical doctrines. Just look at Bible and Qur’an!
28 ¶And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: Mark 12
17 ¶And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Mark 10
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Matthew 23
39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. Deuteron. 4
4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: Deuter… 6
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. Deuter…32
5 ¶I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. Isaiah 45
And Qur’an,
1-Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
2-Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
3-He neither begets nor is born,
4- Nor is there to Him any equivalent." Al-Ikhlas (112)
255-Allah – there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kursī extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. Al-Baqarah (2)
3-He is the First and the Last, the Ascendant and the Intimate, and He is, of all things, Knowing. Al-Hadid (57)
26-Everyone upon the earth will perish,
27-And there will remain the Face of your Lord, Owner of Majesty and Honor. Ar-Rahman(55)
…
E
eddie_too
Guest
it is always possible to use isolated texts to support erroneous beliefs.
the Gospel of Jesus Christ is inherently consistent. one aspect of it cannot contradict any other aspect of it. for example, a correct understanding of the Gospel requires more than knowledge of sacred scripture. it also requires knowledge of sacred tradition.
the fact that people will take isolated passages and misunderstand them is to be expected if they are not well-educated in sacred tradition as well as sacred scripture.
the idea that the individual should believe their own subjective understandings of sacred scripture and sacred tradition is a sign that they have constructed almighty God in their own image.
Jesus made His magisterium collegial for a reason. i believe that reason to be because He knew that no single person could fully grasp the entirety of the logical, reasonable and consistent relationships that exist among all the details, words and actions that God Himself has revealed throughout salvation history.
Jesus had the option of selecting and only educating one human contemporary to be the sole arbiter of His Gospel for future generations. He did not do that. Jesus knew the pitfalls of our fallen human nature. He used that knowledge not only in His words, but in all of His decisions, including in creating His Church.
the Gospel of Jesus Christ is inherently consistent. one aspect of it cannot contradict any other aspect of it. for example, a correct understanding of the Gospel requires more than knowledge of sacred scripture. it also requires knowledge of sacred tradition.
the fact that people will take isolated passages and misunderstand them is to be expected if they are not well-educated in sacred tradition as well as sacred scripture.
the idea that the individual should believe their own subjective understandings of sacred scripture and sacred tradition is a sign that they have constructed almighty God in their own image.
Jesus made His magisterium collegial for a reason. i believe that reason to be because He knew that no single person could fully grasp the entirety of the logical, reasonable and consistent relationships that exist among all the details, words and actions that God Himself has revealed throughout salvation history.
Jesus had the option of selecting and only educating one human contemporary to be the sole arbiter of His Gospel for future generations. He did not do that. Jesus knew the pitfalls of our fallen human nature. He used that knowledge not only in His words, but in all of His decisions, including in creating His Church.
P
PJM
Guest
BE CAREFUL HERE, and please be specific
There are MANY Doctrines supported by the Bible
The Trinity
Mary: Mother of God
The Real Presence
the Sacraments; are examples.
Sacred Tradition often predates the authorship of the Bible; and many Doctrines were identified and declared AFTER the bible had been fully authored, by the end of the 1st Century or very early Second Century:thumbsup:
Catholicism is a LIVING Faith.
Doctrines are normally defined on the impetus of a related heresy. Otherwise they stay as Sacred Traditions
And NO, ST does not necessary override, Doctrine. One NATURALLY leads to the other.
There is an intimate relationship between the two:thumbsup:
There ARE 3 “LEGS” that form the foundation for Catholic Beliefs:
- Sacred Tradition [older than the bible]
- The Bible
- The Catholic Church’s Magisterium {teaching authority]
The Trinity
Mt 3: 13 -17" Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John, to be baptized by him. [14] But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? [15] And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then **he suffered **him.{Permitted}16] And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: [GOD the Son]and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him.[God the Holy Spirit] [17] And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.[God the Father]
God Bless you,
PJM
H
hasantas
Guest
25 And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
26 But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.
27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them! Numbers 11.
There are more verses which prove that God just did not reveal through voice but through Holy Spirit!
H
hasantas
Guest
Tradition is the way of keeping and living revelation so tradition could not be older than Bible. Bible was in presence with Jesus through revelation. The writing of Bible came later but that do not make tradition older than revelation.BE CAREFUL HERE, and please be specific
There are MANY Doctrines supported by the Bible
The Trinity
Mary: Mother of God
The Real Presence
the Sacraments; are examples.
Sacred Tradition often predates the authorship of the Bible; and many Doctrines were identified and declared AFTER the bible had been fully authored, by the end of the 1st Century or very early Second Century:thumbsup:
Catholicism is a LIVING Faith.
Doctrines are normally defined on the impetus of a related heresy. Otherwise they stay as Sacred Traditions
And NO, ST does not necessary override, Doctrine. One NATURALLY leads to the other.
There is an intimate relationship between the two:thumbsup:
There ARE 3 “LEGS” that form the foundation for Catholic Beliefs:
Original sin READ Genesis Chpt #3
- Sacred Tradition [older than the bible]
- The Bible
- The Catholic Church’s Magisterium {teaching authority]
The Trinity
Mt 3: 13 -17" Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John, to be baptized by him. [14] But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? [15] And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then **he suffered **him.{Permitted}16] And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: [GOD the Son]and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him.[God the Holy Spirit] [17] And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.[God the Father]
God Bless you,
PJM
H
hasantas
Guest
Jesus just said “19 ¶Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matthew 28”
So why do that mean Son and Holy Spirit are part of deity?
In both OT and NT and Qur’an God sometimes(few) speak about Himself in plural. But that does not mean there are plural gods. In many verses God say there is one God. So there should be another interpretation of that plural term. One reason is that God make angels witnesses of His acts. There are very kind of angels whom witness actions of God. Some angels are in Hell and some are in Paradise and some are in Heavens and Gabriel bring revelation etc. There is no more than one God!
Qur’an advise to ask People of Book about revelation. Pagans did not believe in revelation. Otherwise God do not advise to ask People of Scripture about Trinity which God do not accept! Trinity imply plural gods which condradict very much with Tawhid.
H
hasantas
Guest
- The likeness of Jesus in God’s sight is that of Adam: He created him from dust, then said to him, “Be,” and he was.
- The truth is from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt.
- And if anyone disputes with you about him, after the knowledge that has come to you, say, “Come, let us call our children and your children, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves, and let us invoke God’s curse on the liars.”
- This is the narrative of truth: there is no god but God. God is the Mighty, the Wise.
- But if they turn away-God knows the corrupt.
- Say, “O People of the Book, come to terms common between us and you: that we worship none but God, and that we associate nothing with Him, and that none of us takes others as lords besides God.” And if they turn away, say, “Bear witness that we have submitted.”
- O People of the Book! Why do you argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed until after him? Will you not reason?
- Here you are-you argue about things you know, but why do you argue about things you do not know? God knows, and you do not know.
- Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a Monotheist, a Muslim. And he was not of the Polytheists.
- The people most deserving of Abraham are those who followed him, and this prophet, and those who believe. God is the Guardian of the believers.
- A party of the People of the Book would love to lead you astray, but they only lead themselves astray, and they do not realize it.
- O People of the Book! Why do you reject the revelations of God, even as you witness?
- O People of the Book! Why do you confound the truth with falsehood, and knowingly conceal the truth?
- Some of the People of the Book say, “Believe in what was revealed to the believers at the beginning of the day, and reject it at its end, so that they may return.”
- And trust none except those who follow your religion." Say, "Guidance is God’s guidance. If someone is given the like of what you were given, or they argue with you before your Lord, say, “All grace is in God’s hand; He gives it to whomever He wills.” God is Bounteous and Knowing.
- He specifies His mercy for whomever He wills. God is Possessor of Sublime Grace.
- Among the People of the Book is he, who, if you entrust him with a heap of gold, he will give it back to you. And among them is he, who, if you entrust him with a single coin, he will not give it back to you, unless you keep after him. That is because they say, “We are under no obligation towards the gentiles.” They tell lies about God, and they know it.
- Indeed, whoever fulfills his commitments and maintains piety-God loves the pious.
- Those who exchange the covenant of God, and their vows, for a small price, will have no share in the Hereafter, and God will not speak to them, nor will He look at them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them. They will have a painful punishment.
- And among them are those who twist the Scripture with their tongues, that you may think it from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture. And they say, “It is from God,” when it is not from God. They tell lies and attribute them to God, knowingly.
- No person to whom God has given the Scripture, and wisdom, and prophethood would ever say to the people, “Be my worshipers rather than God’s.” Rather, “Be people of the Lord, according to the Scripture you teach, and the teachings you learn.”
- Nor would he command you to take the angels and the prophets as lords. Would he command you to infidelity after you have submitted?
- God received the covenant of the prophets, “Inasmuch as I have given you of scripture and wisdom; should a messenger come to you verifying what you have, you shall believe in him, and support him.” He said, “Do you affirm My covenant and take it upon yourselves?” They said, “We affirm it.” He said, “Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses.”
- Whoever turns away after that-these are the deceitful.
- Do they desire other than the religion of God, when to Him has submitted everything in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him they will be returned?
- Say, “We believe in God, and in what was revealed to us; and in what was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses, and Jesus, and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we submit.” Al-Imran (3)
H
hasantas
Guest
I think that verse is the answer:
- Nor would he command you to take the angels and the prophets as lords. Would he command you to infidelity after you have submitted? Al-Imran(3)
P
PJM
Guest
BUT Sacred Tradition did not being WITH JESUS
Some of it goes back to the Old Testament
M
MartinJordan
Guest
The Bible could not exist without the Eucharist.
Plus as iit has been proven time and time again the OP has no case because the OP picks and chooses when Jesus ’ teachings are avoided by not continuing his words. Im notifying the mod.
MJ
M
MartinJordan
Guest
Case in point before I refer to the mod.
Consider these two posts
:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13759776&postcount=196
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13762246&postcount=210
MJ
Consider these two posts
:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13759776&postcount=196
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13762246&postcount=210
MJ
P
PJM
Guest
P
PJM
Guest
- Status