Is Salvation Dependant on the Eucharist as it is on Baptism?

[shocktrooper]

Rightly, according to Catholic doctrine, one must be baptized to enter heaven. However, it seems that Jesus has told us of another criterion for entering heaven or having “life”, the Eucharist.

I have not heard any theologians tie the necessity of the Eucharist to eternal salvation as they do the baptism. There must be good reason for it. Jesus’ words were just as strong regarding the need for the Eucharist as it was for baptism. Is it possible that they don’t want to highlight a criterion that far less people partake in, e.g. almost all non-Catholics.

Does anyone know the Church’s position on the necessity of the Eucharist when it comes to salvation?

Jesus’ words in St. John 6:53-58

53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.b 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”

Or am I not properly understanding what Christ is saying here?

If one will oblige, I am not interested in any opinion that is not rooted in Catholic thought, since the Catholic Church holds a position concerning the Eucharist that other faiths have departed from.

God bless!

 

[po18guy]

Have a catechism? It is chock full of information on the Eucharist. Since it is one of the seven Sacraments, it is clearly extremely important. God’s grace flows through the Sacraments, but God lives in the Eucharist. We adore no other Sacrament, as no other is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ Himself. Baptism occurs at the base of the mountain of faith. The Holy Eucharist is the summit.

 

[JerryZ]

well the Eucharist is mourishment for our Baptism, you cannot receive the former without the second, therefore would you not think that because we need Baptism to be able to receive the Eucharist the issue is non existant.

 

[19lac67]

I have a question about baptism does it matter if I was baptised as a baby or should I redo it as an adult?

 

[PleaseDoNotLOL]

Baptism is a one time thing.

 

[devoutchristian]

Rightly, according to Catholic doctrine, one must be baptized to enter heaven. However, it seems that Jesus has told us of another criterion for entering heaven or having “life”, the Eucharist.

I have not heard any theologians tie the necessity of the Eucharist to eternal salvation as they do the baptism. There must be good reason for it. Jesus’ words were just as strong regarding the need for the Eucharist as it was for baptism. Is it possible that they don’t want to highlight a criterion that far less people partake in, e.g. almost all non-Catholics.

Does anyone know the Church’s position on the necessity of the Eucharist when it comes to salvation?

Jesus’ words in St. John 6:53-58

Or am I not properly understanding what Christ is saying here?

If one will oblige, I am not interested in any opinion that is not rooted in Catholic thought, since the Catholic Church holds a position concerning the Eucharist that other faiths have departed from.

God bless!

The Eucharist is not necessary for salvation in the same sense as baptism. There is nothing which is strictly necessary for salvation that the Eucharist is a direct means to. However, it would be an exceedingly difficult task to be saved without the grace that the Eucharist confers.

I have a question about baptism does it matter if I was baptised as a baby or should I redo it as an adult?

Baptism should not be repeated.

 

[shocktrooper]

Have a catechism? It is chock full of information on the Eucharist. Since it is one of the seven Sacraments, it is clearly extremely important. God’s grace flows through the Sacraments, but God lives in the Eucharist. We adore no other Sacrament, as no other is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ Himself. Baptism occurs at the base of the mountain of faith. The Holy Eucharist is the summit.

But being extremely important and necessary are two different things.

 

[shocktrooper]

well the Eucharist is mourishment for our Baptism, you cannot receive the former without the second, therefore would you not think that because we need Baptism to be able to receive the Eucharist the issue is non existant.

I do agree with you, JerryZ, but I am thinking of those Christians that are properly baptized but have not received the Eucharist. They have fulfilled one of Christ’s demands but not the other. This is what I am having problems with.

Thanks

 

[shocktrooper]

I have a question about baptism does it matter if I was baptised as a baby or should I redo it as an adult?

If your baptism was proper, then you can never repeat it even if you “did” it again a thousand times. There is no need to repeat it.

 

[Orogeny]

Does anyone know the Church’s position on the necessity of the Eucharist when it comes to salvation?

The Eucharist is not required for salvation.

Peace

Tim

 

[shocktrooper]

The Eucharist is not necessary for salvation in the same sense as baptism. There is nothing which is strictly necessary for salvation that the Eucharist is a direct means to. However, it would be an exceedingly difficult task to be saved without the grace that the Eucharist confers.

But did Christ say this? It seems his words in John 6 are just as strong, if not stronger, than those words he used when demanding baptism. How can we take his words of baptism so strongly but minimize his words concerning the Eucharist? I don’t see how anyone can say, after reading John 6, that the Eucharist is not NECESSARY for salvation.

 

[fhansen]

Rightly, according to Catholic doctrine, one must be baptized to enter heaven. However, it seems that Jesus has told us of another criterion for entering heaven or having “life”, the Eucharist.

I have not heard any theologians tie the necessity of the Eucharist to eternal salvation as they do the baptism. There must be good reason for it. Jesus’ words were just as strong regarding the need for the Eucharist as it was for baptism. Is it possible that they don’t want to highlight a criterion that far less people partake in, e.g. almost all non-Catholics.

Does anyone know the Church’s position on the necessity of the Eucharist when it comes to salvation?

Jesus’ words in St. John 6:53-58

Baptism is the first formal expression of faith, without which man cannot be justified. It establishes communion with God, because man exists in an unjust state to the extent he remains outside of communion with God, and faith is the first step in re-communion after the Fall. The Sacrament of the Eucharist was established because man needs to continuously partake of God, regularly nurturing and growing in that communion, and if that communion is broken by sin (opposition to the will of God), the sacrament of Reconciliation recognizes the need for man to repent and be reconciled so communion/ the life of grace is re-established once again.

Remember that “The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions.” CCC 1131 They’re physical forms of spiritual realities so to speak-and they depend on the disposition of the one receiving them for their efficacy.

 

[Orogeny]

shocktrooper, here are a couple of exerpts from the Catechism.

About Baptism:
**VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM **
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
1259 **For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

I have bolded some specific parts of those sections. Note that all those refer to salvation resulting from baptism alone. In none of those cases is the Eucharist included in the statements. That seems to be very clear cut to me.

Peace

Tim

 

[shocktrooper]

shocktrooper, here are a couple of exerpts from the Catechism.

About Baptism:
**VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM **
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
1259 **For *catechumens ***who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

I have bolded some specific parts of those sections. Note that all those refer to salvation resulting from baptism alone. In none of those cases is the Eucharist included in the statements. That seems to be very clear cut to me.

Peace

Tim

Tim, thanks for the quotes. I agree with them, and I agree that the Eucharist is not mentioned at all for salvation. The question I have is, why not? Is seems like Jesus says the Eucharist is necessary for salvation in John 6. Surely, Christ knew that he previously said baptism was necessary. It sounds to me that both are a requirement, not just baptism.

 

[shocktrooper]

Baptism is the first formal expression of faith, without which man cannot be justified. It establishes communion with God, because man exists in an unjust state to the extent he remains outside of communion with God, and faith is the first step in re-communion after the Fall. The Sacrament of the Eucharist was established because man needs to continuously partake of God, regularly nurturing and growing in that communion, and if that communion is broken by sin (opposition to the will of God), the sacrament of Reconciliation recognizes the need for man to repent and be reconciled so communion/ the life of grace is re-established once again.

All mankind, apart from those preserved from either being born or conceived with Original Sin, sin (mortally), thus breaking communion with God. Wouldn’t this be more of a reason for the Eucharist to be a necessity and not just a high recommendation?

I guess there could be some that are born with OS and never sin mortally against God, but this would be few and far between. I think most of these would also be those baptized Christians who have yet to reach the age of reason.

 

[po18guy]

But being extremely important and necessary are two different things.

Couple of points:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you" (John 6:53)

Sounds pretty important.

"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment (damnation) upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. (1 Corinthians 11:27-30)

Sounds rather serious.

The Eucharist is Christ present among us. Think of that. Is Christ necessary for salvation? The Eucharist is the “source and summit” of our faith. Can we expect salvation if we do not receive the source of our faith? The Eucharist is a participation in the divinity of Christ.

We must be very careful not to apply reductionist theory to our salvation. The rebellion in 1517 was the application of reductionism to faith. Christ did not do this - man did. I know that nearly half of the world’s Christians subscribe to such a philosophy, but this is not how the faith was from the beginning. Seeking the minimum necessary for salvation in order to avoid being Catholic inherently carries the risk of loss of that salvation.

 

[fhansen]

All mankind, apart from those preserved from either being born or conceived with Original Sin, sin (mortally), thus breaking communion with God. Wouldn’t this be more of a reason for the Eucharist to be a necessity and not just a high recommendation?

I guess there could be some that are born with OS and never sin mortally against God, but this would be few and far between. I think most of these would also be those baptized Christians who have yet to reach the age of reason.

The main bottom line message is that communion with God, *a communion from which it’s very easy to stray, *is absolutely critical in man being who he was created to be and in his having life and having it abundantly. Man needs God, intimately, personally.

 

[Orogeny]

Tim, thanks for the quotes. I agree with them, and I agree that the Eucharist is not mentioned at all for salvation. The question I have is, why not? Is seems like Jesus says the Eucharist is necessary for salvation in John 6. Surely, Christ knew that he previously said baptism was necessary. It sounds to me that both are a requirement, not just baptism.

I believe it has to do with how the Church has interpreted Jesus’ statement. Here is a very interesting read from St. Thomas Aquinas regarding this question:

968 Jesus said: **Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you will not have life in you. **As if to say: You think it is impossible and unbecoming to eat my flesh. But it is not only possible, but very necessary, so much so that **unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you will not have, **i.e., you will not be able to have, **life in you, **that is, spiritual life. For just as material food is so necessary for bodily life that without it you cannot exist—“They exchanged their precious belongings for food” (Lam 1:11); “Bread strengthens the heart of man” (Ps 103:15)—so spiritual food is necessary for the spiritual life to such an extent that without it the spiritual life cannot be sustained: “Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word which comes from the mouth of God” (Dt 8:3).
969 We should note that this statement can refer either to eating in a spiritual way or in a sacramental way. If we understand it as referring to a spiritual eating, it does not cause any difficulty. For that person eats the flesh of Christ and drinks his blood in a spiritual way who shares in the unity of the Church; and this is accomplished by the love of charity: “You are one body, in Christ” (Rom 12:5). Thus, one who does not eat in this way is outside the Church, and consequently, without the love of charity. Accordingly, such a one does not have life in himself: “He who does not love, remains in death” (1 Jn 3:14).
But if we refer this statement to eating in a sacramental way, a difficulty appears. For we read above: “Unless one is born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (3:5). Now this statement was given in the same form as the present one: **Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man. **Therefore, since baptism is a necessary sacrament, it seems that the Eucharist is also. In fact, the Greeks think it is; and so they give the Eucharist to newly baptized infants. For this opinion they have in their favor the rite of Denis, who says that the reception of each sacrament should culminate in the sharing of the Eucharist, which is the culmination of all the sacraments. This is true in the case of adults, but it is not so for infants, because receiving the Eucharist should be done with reverence and devotion, and those who do not have the use of reason, as infants and the insane, cannot have this. Consequently, it should not be given to them at all.
We should say, therefore, that the sacrament of baptism is necessary for everyone, and it must be really received, because without it no one is born again into life. And so it is necessary that it be received in reality, or by desire in the case of those who are prevented from the former. For if the contempt within a person excludes a baptism by water, then neither a baptism of desire nor of blood will benefit him for eternal life. However, the sacrament of the Eucharist is necessary for adults only, so that it may be received in reality, or by desire, according to the practices of the Church.

dhspriory.org/thomas/John6.htm

You are not the first to ask this question. Interesting that St. Thomas indicated that the eastern Church actually does (did?) believe that the Eucharist is required, along with Baptism, for salvation.

Peace

Tim

 

[shocktrooper]

I believe it has to do with how the Church has interpreted Jesus’ statement. Here is a very interesting read from St. Thomas Aquinas regarding this question:dhspriory.org/thomas/John6.htm

You are not the first to ask this question. Interesting that St. Thomas indicated that the eastern Church actually does (did?) believe that the Eucharist is required, along with Baptism, for salvation.

Peace
Tim

Great link. I appreciate it. I have read it over but want to reflect on it a bit more. I still have concerns, e.g. this conclusion by St. Thomas seems to endorse the Protestant understanding of Christ’s presence in the Eucharist, which is merely, at best, “spiritual” and not “substantial”- body, blood, soul & divinity.

It may boil down to what St. Thomas means by “spiritual”, but the fact that there have been numerous Eucharistic miracles points to more than just spiritual.

However, it seems St. Thomas does consider the Eucharist necessary for adults. This seems plausible since those baptized and not of the age of reason have not personally sinned against God.

Thanks.

 

[Orogeny]

Great link. I appreciate it. I have read it over but want to reflect on it a bit more. I still have concerns, e.g. this conclusion by St. Thomas seems to endorse the Protestant understanding of Christ’s presence in the Eucharist, which is merely, at best, “spiritual” and not “substantial”- body, blood, soul & divinity.

You need to read the whole thing, not just what I copied. He absolutely does not take the protestant position. He is very clear that the Eucharist is truly the body and blood of Christ.

Peace

Tim