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GaryTaylor
Guest
Right, same as with purgatory and the visionaries I would suggest.
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Ambien89
Guest
Satan is the father of lies. He is ignorant ‘to the core’. Ignorance prevents knowledge of many things, but especially knowledge of good. To rebel against God, one must be thoroughly ignorant and therefore evil, but evil as a separate and equal force to good is nonsensical. If Satan were ‘purely evil’ then he would be naturally equal to a being who is ‘purely good’ ie God. This is obviously not the case. When we observe our universe with its continuity, unification of natural laws and its rational, intelligible order then we must recognize that there is supreme good in the creator. Ignorance produces evil; a lacking of goodness. As Satan is an angelic being, we cannot know the full depths of his ignorance, but that he is the father of lies.
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Ambien89
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“what we consider to be pain” ie physical pain. I think you hit the nail on e head there.
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PJM
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It’s metaphorical writing; quite common in the bible. It MEANS “deep and Great” suffering.
God Bless you,
Patrick
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Usagi
Guest
Where do you get the idea that the fallen angels are comfortable in hell or that they consider it their home? That is a popular misconception but has no place in Christian teaching.
Even the idea that the demons can “leave” hell and come here relies on the notion that hell is a specific location rather than a state internal to each damned spirit or soul. (It may well be both, but it is most especially the latter.)
Usagi
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PJM
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GREAT REPLY MY FRIEND!
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mikekle
Guest
Well, I had never thought about it like that, I had always assumed Hell was their ‘home’, and all the stories of human souls being tormented in hell BY DEMONS,so this tells me demons/fallen angels consider this to be their territory, and I also just assumed they are ‘comfortable’ there.
I believe hell is a specific place, but not on our plane, it doesnt really seem like a prison if satan and the others are able to come and go willingly though.
I guess the real question should be, why did God even create a place for them, why did he not just turn them all to dust…I think I can answer my own question here…They are NEEDED, in that if they were not here and could not influence us, humans would not be going down the wrong path or choosing to do wrong, so there would be no choice, so in a way, it seems God may have intended satan and the other fallen angels to do what they did.
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truetofaith
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Why would it matter if there was any good in Satan? His mission is to destroy God’s creation, especially Mankind, so actually there can’t be any good in him.
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willie_duggan
Guest
It is pointless - and I would argue that it is very dangerous - to try to apportion any good whatsoever upon an entity, Satan, who has instigated such havoc throughout history.
Satan does not possess any redeeming qualities whatsoever.
Satan does not possess any redeeming qualities whatsoever.
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Dorothy
Guest
With regard to your last paragraph…I remember reading this at some time in my life, it sounds like St. Thomas Aquinas. (Any experts here who know?).
What God creates He doesn’t take back, but uses evil to bring about good.
Satan and the demons are on a leash. They can only tempt as God allows. When we resist temptation with the Lord’s help, then we become spiritually stronger. (God’s Light increases in us). We have all the helps we need in our One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
God desires that our love be freely given to Him, for our benefit.
I don’t think that God “intended” the fallen angels to do what they did, it seems to me that He allowed it because a greater good can come out of it.
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PendingTheist
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Why doesn’t God just vaporize Satan? I would hope you would remove anything that may hurt your child thus making you more moral than God. In Job Satan is God’s adversary or hit man but in the New Testament satan is God’s antagonist.
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Layp3rs0n
Guest
Satan is evil. Yes. But the fact that he is a creature necessitates that he has some kind of intrinsic goodness. By that I do not mean kindness, or holiness at all. But nothing created is 100% bad. It is not the kind of goodness that causes godliness but merely that existence is good. God saw fit to create other beings out of love. Remember, God is Existance, He is what Is. He created other beings because He found goodness in their existence even if He knew they would turn from Him. In that regard, Satan retains the goodness of existence and that alone. His will is entirely evil. In fact, Satan probably derives a large amount of his own torment knowing that he cannot exist independantly of God. He would probably prefer non-existence since his own existence is supported by God and in some small way, to him, horrible glimmer of his creaturliness, and reflection of God. In no other way is there any goodness in Satan who, having irredeemably refused all Charity, deserves our utmost contempt and yes, hatred since Charity is by definition willing the Supreme Good on someone, namely, God.
Now, as to the question as to whether demons torment souls in hell. Yes, they do. Perhaps they will not physically torment the bodies of the damned after the ressurection, but they will certainly torment their intellects. But this will be mutual. The damned, whether human or angel detest one another and for eternity will remind each other of each other’s sins. They will inadvertantly pour out God’s justice on one another, in fact adding exponentially to their suffering. Even the damned, through evil attempt, get God’s Will done. God’s mercy and justice are one. It only matters how we respond to it. If we accept mercy we will attain it, if justice, that. Either way, God is glorified. And the demons hate this.
Now, as to the question as to whether demons torment souls in hell. Yes, they do. Perhaps they will not physically torment the bodies of the damned after the ressurection, but they will certainly torment their intellects. But this will be mutual. The damned, whether human or angel detest one another and for eternity will remind each other of each other’s sins. They will inadvertantly pour out God’s justice on one another, in fact adding exponentially to their suffering. Even the damned, through evil attempt, get God’s Will done. God’s mercy and justice are one. It only matters how we respond to it. If we accept mercy we will attain it, if justice, that. Either way, God is glorified. And the demons hate this.
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Dorothy
Guest
With regard to the first two sentences of your post:
God chooses to allow them to tempt us, but provides a way out! (The grace Jesus won for us.)
When we are tempted and resist, we become stronger.
If we fall, we can accept the grace of repentance.
(I am finite and God is infinite, so I pray to trust His ways that I do not understand. )
With regard to your perception of the evil one in the Old Testament and in the New Testament:
The evil one was allowed to cause many terrible trials to befall Job. Job came through it all by remaining loyal to the Lord.
I am aware that my responses are short and simple, and I hope that others who can explain better please do so…with correction of how I have articulated myself, and with adding more explanation.
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PendingTheist
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James1:13 says God does not tempt so your premise of temptation is false. God also tempted Abraham to kill his son so this bible contradiction. We can be given other choices with free will, just leave out the bad stuff. Example, I may choose to have eggs, cereal , oatmeal or gasoline for breakfast. If we leave out gasoline my freewill is intact and no suffering.
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Dorothy
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You are correct in saying that God does not tempt.
However, if you re-read my post you will see that in both instances I said that God allowed the temptation.
The evil one and the demons are on a leash. They tempt when they are allowed, and God gives a way out, if the person so chooses. (Grace). By resisting temptation and growing in the grace of God, we can become sanctified.
Whenever Sacred Scripture seems to contradict itself, it is our understanding that is at fault.
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truetofaith
Guest
Lucifer was created as an angel of light. Using his free will, he became proud and said he was equal to God. A third of the angels rebelled with him and were thrown from heaven. He wasn’t created evil but sinned & tempted humanity to sin. Since he hated God’s creation.
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PendingTheist
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I started a freewill thread. If Satan used his freewill, will we have freewill to sin after death?
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Usagi
Guest
Why is a difficult question, but as far as it has been revealed to us God never chooses to destroy any of the rational souls He has created, even if they rebel against Him to the extent of winding up in eternal misery. The best explanation we’ve been able to come up with is that existence itself is a form of goodness and God chooses never to destroy that little bit of goodness in even the most evil souls and spirits
Usagi
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PendingTheist
Guest
Can you comment on this quote please?
To quote Greek philosopher Epicurus [341–270 B.C.]: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
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