Is Satan Smart?

[Darrel]

Darrel

To fight Satan on our own without God is like one ant against one T-Rex. That difference applies to both power and intellect. Without God the devil would role right over us.

But then we never are without God, are we? Unless we repudiate God. Which is why I think your #7 should be your #1.

The rise of atheism is the principle objective of Satan … Satan wants us to believe that we have no ally in God. Having divided us from God, he can, as you say, *role right over us. *If there is no God, there also is no devil, and so we cannot know our enemy and prepare ouselves against him.

I’m not certain that the rise of Atheism is at the top of the devils list. I think he works on many many levels at once. With regard to your question posed to fidelis. I think the fact that the devil has been allowed an audience with God after his fall must mean something. This section from Job is a good example.

4 One day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, Satan also came among them. 7 And the LORD said to Satan, “Whence do you come?” Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “From roaming the earth and patrolling it.” 8 And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job, and that there is no one on earth like him, blameless and upright, fearing God and avoiding evil?” 9 But Satan answered the LORD and said, “Is it for nothing that Job is God-fearing? 10 Have you not surrounded him and his family and all that he has with your protection? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his livestock are spread over the land. 11 But now put forth your hand and touch anything that he has, and surely he will blaspheme you to your face.” 12 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand upon his person.” So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

The devil was allowed to be involved in a debate with God over one of his servants. This has always caused me to believe that Satan has retained his total mind after his fall. This conversation was not the rambling of chaotic raging lune.

-D

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

*The devil was allowed to be involved in a debate with God over one of his servants. This has always caused me to believe that Satan has retained his total mind after his fall. *

Yeah, right. Disagreeing with God is a sign of genius at work.

I work with RCIA groups in several prisons. I asked a prisoner one day why he came to RCIA. He replied that he used to think he was so smart by not coming … such a waste of time. Then he finally asked himself why, if he was so smart, he was in prison while his Christian friends were not.

Don’t you think Satan ought to be asking the same question?

“If I’m so bright, why am I in hell, and why is Michael my jailer?”

But, so far as we know, he would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven.

Not smart!

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

I’m not certain that the rise of Atheism is at the top of the devils list. I think he works on many many levels at once.

To be sure, he does. But atheism ought to be near the top, rather than at the bottom, of the list.

Without God, without an absolute source of knowing right from wrong, moral relativism will tend to triumph, as it is today in America with the decline of religion and the rise of atheistic hedonism. Without God there will be no recourse to strength and wisdom, no comfort in our illness and grief, no assurance that whatever befalls us, in the end we can be saved.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

I’m not certain that the rise of Atheism is at the top of the devils list. I think he works on many many levels at once.

To be sure, he does.

But without God there is no absolute ground for right and wrong. Without God people will define right and wrong as their personal preference … no more and no less. Without God people will have no recourse to the gift of grace, no comfort in their suffering, no hope that no matter how badly things are going, all will turn out right in the end with God almighty in our corner.

Sorry about the double posting. It seemed to me that my first version had not gone through. Either that or, like Satan, my intellect is getting clouded by my sins.

 

[Darrel]

*The devil was allowed to be involved in a debate with God over one of his servants. This has always caused me to believe that Satan has retained his total mind after his fall. *

Yeah, right. Disagreeing with God is a sign of genius at work.

I work with RCIA groups in several prisons. I asked a prisoner one day why he came to RCIA. He replied that he used to think he was so smart by not coming … such a waste of time. Then he finally asked himself why, if he was so smart, he was in prison while his Christian friends were not.

Don’t you think Satan ought to be asking the same question?

“If I’m so bright, why am I in hell, and why is Michael my jailer?”

But, so far as we know, he would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven.

Not smart!

I found this site online.

tanbooks.com/doct/angels.htm

this is the book the below excerpt in red is from.

tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/421/

Our human mind comes into possession of knowledge by a gradual and laborious process. It requires first of all a number of years of physical development for the proper operation. It rises slowly from single sensible perceptions to general ideas of things and finally to abstract truth. The Angelic intellect, entirely free and independent from matter and senses, needs no such development. It is in the full possession of its power from the very beginning of its existence. There is no need of gathering elements of knowledge bit by bit, of adding ideas to ideas in order to discover truth, as is the case with us. Having been created in the full perfection of its nature, the Angelic mind neither develops by gradual growth nor does it suffer any decay; its knowledge does not pass by consecutive steps from the haze of the morning to the splendor of the noonday brightness. From the beginning of its existence it was able to grasp the objects within its own sphere and advert to them without any fatigue in the process, moving in the dazzling light of the purely spiritual world as in its proper element.
Being by nature higher than man and much closer to God, the Angels receive more of His light, that is, a greater power of understanding, infused ideas, mind-pictures representing external objects, the spiritual and material creatures of this universe.

This point seems valid with regard to angelic intellect. These beings begin with eternal (superior) intellect and knowledge and don’t aquire it piece by piece as we do.

-D

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Darrel

This point seems valid with regard to angelic intellect. These beings begin with eternal (superior) intellect and knowledge and don’t aquire it piece by piece as we do.
*
That discussion seems to be about Lucifer, not Satan. Superior intellect, no doubt.* Eternal** … where does it say that in Scripture?

I think Satan is not so bright as he once was under another name.

Note that name changes in Scripture signify as a rule role changes.

Simon becomes Peter.

Saul becomes Paul.

Each has been transformed from a lower intelligence to a higher one.

But Lucifer becomes Satan. Lucifer is transformed too. I would say he didn’t get smarter … and lost what smarts he had.

That does not mean he is not a formidable enemy still. He is still crafty enough to play on our weaker natures. But we are also armed against him with the wisdom and understanding that comes from the Holy Spirit. The only way Satan can outsmart us is if we allow ourselves to be outsmarted. We are our own worst enemies. Eve blamed her fall on being tricked by the serpent. “The devil made me do it.” No such thing. She willingly played into his trick … and lost all those treats!

 

[Fidelis]

That discussion seems to be about Lucifer, not Satan. Superior intellect, no doubt.** Eternal** … where does it say that in Scripture?

This is irrelevant since, as you know, Catholics do not ascribe to Sola Scriptura. By this same criteria, where in Scripture does it specifically say Satan **lost **intelligence?

 

[Fidelis]

So you think Satan is “surpassing in perfection”?

As far as his natural gifts as an angelic being – yes I do, because that’s what the Catechism says. These gifts, however, have been perverted by his pride and hate.

I doubt it. Write me up for a heretic if I have to believe that!

No one said you were. Being touchy is not conducive to mature discussion.

 

[Fidelis]

Fidelis

There is, in fact, nothing in Church teaching that says Satan LOST his superior angelic intelligence as a result of his fall,

Nor, in fact, is there anything in Church teaching that says he kept his superior angelic intelligence as a result of the fall … just as humans did not keep their innocence after the fall.

I think we can agree that innocence and intelligence are two different things. One is *necessarily *affected by sin, the other is not.

Did Lucifer show loss of wisdom after his fall? But if you lose wisdom, don’t you also lose intelligence? What are the gifts of the Holy Spirit? Among them … wisdom, understanding (intelligence) and knowledge. Didn’t Lucifer lose these gifts when he became Satan? Show me how Satan exemplifies continued possession of the Holy Spirit’s gifts of wisdom and understanding (intelligence) in the same way that MIchael the Archangel possessed them.

Again, as I and others have pointed out, wisdom and intelligence are two different things.

Or just this: show in what way you think Satan continues to be what you laughingly call the brightest “angel” ever created.

Sure, after you show me where I said this.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

I think we can agree that innocence and intelligence are two different things. One is necessarily affected by sin, the other is not.

Yes, we can agree to the first sentence. No, we cannot agree to the second. Haven’t I already made that clear?

But God bless your efforts.

 

[Mickey]

**The devil has a very close relationship and familiarity with the imagination, and of all the power of the soul he has this one as the most appropriate organ to deceive man and to activate his passions and evils. He indeed is very familiar with the nature of the imagination. For he, being created by God originally as a pure and simple mind without form and image, as the other divine angels, later came to love the forms and the imagination. Imagining that he could set his throne above the heavens and become like God, he fell from being an angel of light and became a devil of darkness. St. Dionysios spoke about this devil. "What is the evil in the devils? Irrational anger; unreasonable desire; and reckless imagination. **
St. Nicodemos of the Holy Mountain

 

[Fidelis]

I think we can agree that innocence and intelligence are two different things. One is necessarily affected by sin, the other is not.

Yes, we can agree to the first sentence. No, we cannot agree to the second. Haven’t I already made that clear?

If you’re talking about this comment of yours…

think Satan is not so bright as he once was under another name.
Note that name changes in Scripture signify as a rule role changes.
Simon becomes Peter.
Saul becomes Paul.
Each has been transformed from a lower intelligence to a higher one.
But Lucifer becomes Satan. Lucifer is transformed too. I would say he didn’t get smarter … and lost what smarts he had.

…then, no, I don’t beleive you have made it clear, since, while it is true the roles of the people you list have changed, there is no evidence their intelligence changed. For example, Paul was a brilliant Pharisee before his conversion, and after his conversion was still brilliant – a brilliant Christian. Did he grow in wisdom? Certainly! But, again, wisdom and intelligence are not the same thing.

 

[Darrel]

Darrel

*This point seems valid with regard to angelic intellect. These beings begin with eternal (superior) intellect and knowledge and don’t aquire it piece by piece as we do. *

That discussion seems to be about Lucifer, not Satan. Superior intellect, no doubt.** Eternal** … where does it say that in Scripture?

I think Satan is not so bright as he once was under another name.

Note that name changes in Scripture signify as a rule role changes.

Simon becomes Peter.

Saul becomes Paul.

Each has been transformed from a lower intelligence to a higher one.

But Lucifer becomes Satan. Lucifer is transformed too. I would say he didn’t get smarter … and lost what smarts he had.

That does not mean he is not a formidable enemy still. He is still crafty enough to play on our weaker natures. But we are also armed against him with the wisdom and understanding that comes from the Holy Spirit. The only way Satan can outsmart us is if we allow ourselves to be outsmarted. We are our own worst enemies. Eve blamed her fall on being tricked by the serpent. “The devil made me do it.” No such thing. She willingly played into his trick … and lost all those treats!

Your “theory” just has to many holes that have all been pointed out here. No offense but I’ll stick with St Thomas Aquinas. God is not going to strip the devil of his mind and then allow him to tempt people. Our enemy is brilliant and never to be underestimated. My question for you Gilbert, is can you site any reputable Catholic sources for this theory that Satan is a dummy?

-D

 

[wcknight]

Satan is dumb enough to land in Hell but smart enough to drag a lot of folks with him. IF he is smart enough to get a lot of brilliant folks ending up in Hell he is far too smart for me. Let me an idiot for the Lord.

 

[rtconstant]

Well I suppose one would have to first define what is intellegent. Would Satan have access to vast lore? Yes. Is he clever? Given how creative he can be in his temptations I’d say yes. Can he empathize which would suggest good comprehension. Again being as he seems to know what people want to see and believe I’d have to say yes. All of these things would suggest a versatile and subtle mind and thus intellegence.

However, there is more too it than that in my opinion. I don’t think that one can seriously consider this question without taking into account the affects of sin. After all we humans are capable of amazing feats of intellectual creativity and understanding and yet we can be really “stupid” nontheless. Sin affects and clouds the better angels of our minds and causes us to forget reason or too utilize our mental gifts to absurd ends.

Some criminals are quiet creative and clever yet they waist their lives using their gifts for petty things that will eventually end in them loosing their freedom. So while their actions display a sharp mind in the end they’re really quite stupid.

Human kind figured out how to see and manipulate atoms and yet the first thing we bend our will toward is taking this knowledge and making a cruel weapon with wich to dominate and terrorize our fellow man. Because of sin intellegence is brought low and reason is reduced to madness.

I think the same logic can be applied to Satan. Is his potential for mental feats high? Absolutely, but his passions push him to sin and thus he squanders his otherwise impressive abilities.

 

[prodigal-sun]

Darrel

Which of Satan’s lies do you think he chooses to tell most often because he thinks it will have the greatest damning effect on the fate of our immortal souls?

His most successful lie, I believe, is - “I do not exsist”

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Fidelis

For example, Paul was a brilliant Pharisee before his conversion, and after his conversion was still brilliant – a brilliant Christian.

Paul was aggressively anti-Christian before he became Christian. Where does it tell us in Scriptures that Paul was brilliant before he became a Christian?

You just can’t make up things as you go along.

 

[R_McGeddon]

I really can’t believe what I’m reading here. There is no satan, it’s just a myth perpetuated by your church to keep you fearful, faithful and in line. Just take at what you’ve all written on this subject to see how well it works, it’s almost as if it’s still the middle ages.

I wonder how many of you believe that heavy metal is the “devil’s music” and that playing it backwards summons up evil spirits.

Incidently, all that I’ve read about this so-called satan is that he has no power to actually do anything at all. The only thing that he can do is to tempt and deceive and then rely on human weakness. Considering that satan is a creation of the church, you should already know this.

 

[Mickey]

I really can’t believe what I’m reading here. There is no satan

See post # 36.

 

[gmarie21]

I really can’t believe what I’m reading here. There is no satan, it’s just a myth perpetuated by your church to keep you fearful, faithful and in line. Just take at what you’ve all written on this subject to see how well it works, it’s almost as if it’s still the middle ages.

I wonder how many of you believe that heavy metal is the “devil’s music” and that playing it backwards summons up evil spirits.

Incidently, all that I’ve read about this so-called satan is that he has no power to actually do anything at all. The only thing that he can do is to tempt and deceive and then rely on human weakness. Considering that satan is a creation of the church, you should already know this.

And you have proven Satan’s most effective tool, deceiving people into believing he doesn’t exist. I know for a fact that Satan exists, however, if you want to take that chance and bury your head in the sand, then if you end up in Hell it’ll be too late to change your mind about the existance of God and Satan and you’ll be stuck without God for eternity and stuck with Satan.

P.S. I’m not saying you’ll end up in Hell, only God decides on how merciful he’ll be since none of us is worthy for Heaven.