Is sentencing someone to life in prison for marijuana immoral?

[BornInMarch]

We have a Broken Prison System.

Judges and law-makers race against each other to try and be as “Hard On Crime” as possible so that they can claim to be “Hard On Crime” during election season. Politicians face zero medical consequences for making blatantly unfair laws with the intent of making prison life Hell-on-Earth.

For example, medical care in prisons is so underfunded that prisoners constantly die of easily treatable medical conditions. Usually the only reason is that it’s cheaper to let them die than keep them alive. If a prisoner needs medical care and doesn’t have family to advocate for him and/or pay for the medicine, then all he can do is get his affairs in order.

Another example is how society treats the worst thing a prisoner can encounter while behind bars. At best, movies and television treat prison rape as a funny joke. At worst, they treat it like something prisoners deserve.

For me, the worst way prisoners are mistreated is that their voting rights are restricted. Voting is the most basic human right of all, and by taking it away we are telling prisoners “Society no longer considers you human, and never will again”. There is no good reason for restricting prisoners voting rights; the only arguments in favor of it are either based on irrational fear of prisoners (“they’ll vote to make crime legal!” [even if convicts weren’t the majority, they’d still have to vote for candidates]) or bigoted hatred of them (“Prisoners don’t deserve human rights!” [being locked up for a chunk of their lives is sufficient punishment]). That’s fitting, because laws which restrict prisoner voting rights were originally made during the Jim Crow Era to prevent African Americans from voting (it still works, as the majority of Disenfranchised Americans today are African American).

In reality, prisoners who are allowed to vote would use that to improve things for themselves and their families on the outside. Maybe a prisoner doesn’t want the US to get involved in another war because his son would be eligible for draft, or maybe he wants the presidential election to be won by a politician who won’t reverse the Affordable Care Act because his family is poor and can’t get health care otherwise. Maybe he has a friend on Death Row and want to make sure the politician who opposes the death penalty wins the election. The point is, politics ARE the concern of the prisoners…

I’m a little weird because I believe John Locke’s idea that human rights should be inalienable (they should never be fully taken away). I honestly believe that even the Ted Bundy’s of the world should be allowed to vote and should be free from the fear of getting raped by his cellmate or dying of an easily treatable illness. There’s a line between justice and sadism, and when society crosses that line bad things happen.

Sorry if I come off as passionate about prisoners rights, but that’s because I know someone in prison and it makes me angry to think that she almost died as a result of her prison not wanting to pay for medication she needed to stay alive (fortunately she had a family to advocate for her).

 

[Horton]

There are so many ways you are just wrong about much of what you’ve written.

We have a Broken Prison System.

Judges and law-makers race against each other to try and be as “Hard On Crime” as possible so that they can claim to be “Hard On Crime” during election season. Politicians face zero medical consequences for making blatantly unfair laws with the intent of making prison life Hell-on-Earth.

There is no reward for sending people to prison. I’m guessing you don’t really know many judges. I do and they do not like sending people to prison. There are no laws making prison life “Hell-on-Earth”. Is prison hard? Yep. People who don’t want to be in prison should then conform their behavior is such a way they don’t end up there.

For example, medical care in prisons is so underfunded that prisoners constantly die of easily treatable medical conditions. Usually the only reason is that it’s cheaper to let them die than keep them alive. If a prisoner needs medical care and doesn’t have family to advocate for him and/or pay for the medicine, then all he can do is get his affairs in order.

Again untrue. Medical care in prison is one of the biggest expenses taxpayers will pay. There is this group of smart lawyers who work in DC. They’re called the Supreme Court. These folks said all prison inmates MUST get medical care regardless. Do they get premium care and any drugs they may want? No but if that is what they need they should have stayed home.

Another example is how society treats the worst thing a prisoner can encounter while behind bars. At best, movies and television treat prison rape as a funny joke. At worst, they treat it like something prisoners deserve.

For me, the worst way prisoners are mistreated is that their voting rights are restricted. Voting is the most basic human right of all, and by taking it away we are telling prisoners “Society no longer considers you human, and never will again”. There is no good reason for restricting prisoners voting rights; the only arguments in favor of it are either based on irrational fear of prisoners (“they’ll vote to make crime legal!” [even if convicts weren’t the majority, they’d still have to vote for candidates]) or bigoted hatred of them (“Prisoners don’t deserve human rights!” [being locked up for a chunk of their lives is sufficient punishment]). That’s fitting, because laws which restrict prisoner voting rights were originally made during the Jim Crow Era to prevent African Americans from voting (it still works, as the majority of Disenfranchised Americans today are African American).

In reality, prisoners who are allowed to vote would use that to improve things for themselves and their families on the outside. Maybe a prisoner doesn’t want the US to get involved in another war because his son would be eligible for draft, or maybe he wants the presidential election to be won by a politician who won’t reverse the Affordable Care Act because his family is poor and can’t get health care otherwise. Maybe he has a friend on Death Row and want to make sure the politician who opposes the death penalty wins the election. The point is, politics ARE the concern of the prisoners…

The loss of some civil rights is fair. Why should people who refuse to conform to the laws of society be allowed the same rights those of who do conform?

I’m a little weird because I believe John Locke’s idea that human rights should be inalienable (they should never be fully taken away). I honestly believe that even the Ted Bundy’s of the world should be allowed to vote and should be free from the fear of getting raped by his cellmate or dying of an easily treatable illness. There’s a line between justice and sadism, and when society crosses that line bad things happen.

Easy fix - Obey the laws.

Sorry if I come off as passionate about prisoners rights, but that’s because I know someone in prison and it makes me angry to think that she almost died as a result of her prison not wanting to pay for medication she needed to stay alive (fortunately she had a family to advocate for her).

I spent my career working the criminal justice field, the last several years as a program manager in a men’s prison. I also have a family member in prison. The one thing you can count on from prisoner is they will tell the best story to get their way. No right or wrong, just get what they want. If I had a dollar for every sad story I heard I could have retired 5 years before I did.

You have no idea how difficult it is to work in a prison, to do it day in & day out, the thick skin you have to develop, the insults and accusations. I can guarantee no one who works in prisons have any desire to make it more difficult, the job is hard as it is. In my state those of us working in prisons have an early retirement option because it is hard.

 

[mikekle]

There are so many ways you are just wrong about much of what you’ve written.

There is no reward for sending people to prison. I’m guessing you don’t really know many judges. I do and they do not like sending people to prison. There are no laws making prison life “Hell-on-Earth”. Is prison hard? Yep. People who don’t want to be in prison should then conform their behavior is such a way they don’t end up there.

Again untrue. Medical care in prison is one of the biggest expenses taxpayers will pay. There is this group of smart lawyers who work in DC. They’re called the Supreme Court. These folks said all prison inmates MUST get medical care regardless. Do they get premium care and any drugs they may want? No but if that is what they need they should have stayed home.

The loss of some civil rights is fair. Why should people who refuse to conform to the laws of society be allowed the same rights those of who do conform?

Easy fix - Obey the laws.

I spent my career working the criminal justice field, the last several years as a program manager in a men’s prison. I also have a family member in prison. The one thing you can count on from prisoner is they will tell the best story to get their way. No right or wrong, just get what they want. If I had a dollar for every sad story I heard I could have retired 5 years before I did.

You have no idea how difficult it is to work in a prison, to do it day in & day out, the thick skin you have to develop, the insults and accusations. I can guarantee no one who works in prisons have any desire to make it more difficult, the job is hard as it is. In my state those of us working in prisons have an early retirement option because it is hard.

There is plenty of benefit to send people to prison…mainly, the FOR PROFIT prison system…crime is their bread and butter, if drugs were suddenly legalized, this would be bad news for the prison industry and LE agencies alike, keeping drugs illegal ensure an endless supply of law breakers that commit crimes to support their habit, mandatory sentences ensure a long stay as well.

Keeping drugs illegal only benefit the prison industry, LE agencies, the cartels and the pharma industry…likely a whole lot of collusion between these 4 entities…following the money is usually the easiest way to spot true corruption, in this case, its pretty easy to see who benefits.

You have to admit, (especially in a post 9-11 world), the cartels consistently get enough of their products thru the border to keep the entire country fully supplied, is pretty suspect. I dont think its any coincidence either, without that constant stream, there would be no reason for addicts to rob, steal and commit other crimes to get money to buy the drugs in the first place.

Furthermore, this nationwide Heroin epidemic that is killing 10s of 1000s, could be considered an invasion, the military normally deals with invasions that kill people, with hostile force, no matter what the country of origin, but for some reason, they just cant seem to locate the acres and acres of poppie fields in Mexico to destroy??..YEAH RIGHT! Doing that would grind the whole system to a halt.

 

[Horton]

There is plenty of benefit to send people to prison…mainly, the FOR PROFIT prison system…crime is their bread and butter, if drugs were suddenly legalized, this would be bad news for the prison industry and LE agencies alike, keeping drugs illegal ensure an endless supply of law breakers that commit crimes to support their habit, mandatory sentences ensure a long stay as well.

Keeping drugs illegal only benefit the prison industry, LE agencies, the cartels and the pharma industry…likely a whole lot of collusion between these 4 entities…following the money is usually the easiest way to spot true corruption, in this case, its pretty easy to see who benefits.

Check out any state budget numbers and you will see there is no profit for state or federal prison systems. Yes there are privately run prisons that operate for profit but it is not all prisons. Most are state run or federally run and make no profit whatsoever.

You have to admit, (especially in a post 9-11 world), the cartels consistently get enough of their products thru the border to keep the entire country fully supplied, is pretty suspect. I dont think its any coincidence either, without that constant stream, there would be no reason for addicts to rob, steal and commit other crimes to get money to buy the drugs in the first place.

Making drugs legal will not reduce crime. If someone has to rob, steal and commit other crimes to get their drugs, how would they get the money needed to buy them legally?

Furthermore, this nationwide Heroin epidemic that is killing 10s of 1000s, could be considered an invasion, the military normally deals with invasions that kill people, with hostile force, no matter what the country of origin, but for some reason, they just cant seem to locate the acres and acres of poppie fields in Mexico to destroy??..YEAH RIGHT! Doing that would grind the whole system to a halt.

If you have the solution to this problem why not work with your states law makers to fix it? Spend a few days working in a prison or criminal justice system and learn the truth about what goes on rather than listening to liberal media telling you what they want you to believe.

 

[mikekle]

Making drugs legal will not reduce crime. If someone has to rob, steal and commit other crimes to get their drugs, how would they get the money needed to buy them legally?

If you have the solution to this problem why not work with your states law makers to fix it? Spend a few days working in a prison or criminal justice system and learn the truth about what goes on rather than listening to liberal media telling you what they want you to believe.

Well, in reality, drugs coming from a plant should be very cheap, heroin, marijuana, etc are not really that valuable, as it doesnt involve a lot of expensive manufacturing or processing, the high cost comes from the risk involved, Heroin runs about $150. a gram, pot is much less because it can be grown anywhere. If it were legal, that price would go way down, as there would be no more risk involved in the trade. People using drugs could find their weekly use easily, even with minimum wage jobs.

The high street cost also comes from transporting the drugs from Mexico, heroin, which cannot be grown and processed anywhere has to be imported, but if it were legal, the southwest areas could grow poppies, I believe the pharma companies grow some of their poppies for opiate meds here, legalizing would take the cartels completely out of the game, and thus a HUGE part of the cost, the cartels must spend a lot of money to ensure their product reaches the US, they have to buy DEA agents, ‘mules’ to carry it, people they trust to distribute it, and especially trustworthy people to ensure the cash proceeds make it back to the cartels, a lot of violence results in this, violence= money.

There is an easy solution to stop the drug trade, go to the source, and stop the production and flow, destroy the fields, poppie plants do not produce much morphine, so it takes 100s of 1000s of acres to keep every US city supplied…if the US can find one guy globally (Bin Laden), I have no doubt they can easily find 100,000+ acres of flowers in Mexico, if the death rates from its use are true, then entering Mexico to do this would be justified.

The problem is the corruption involved, anyone knows to go after the source to get rid of a problem, thats the whole idea with the ear on terror, the war on drugs is different though, while its killing many, its also bringing in loads of cash for a lot of people, somehow I doubt the DEA would like if all the cash/ property seizures to come to an end…therein lies the problem, its FAR more beneficial to ‘treat’ the problem than to cure it.

 

[Horton]

Well, in reality, drugs coming from a plant should be very cheap, heroin, marijuana, etc are not really that valuable, as it doesnt involve a lot of expensive manufacturing or processing, the high cost comes from the risk involved, Heroin runs about $150. a gram, pot is much less because it can be grown anywhere. If it were legal, that price would go way down, as there would be no more risk involved in the trade. People using drugs could find their weekly use easily, even with minimum wage jobs.

The high street cost also comes from transporting the drugs from Mexico, heroin, which cannot be grown and processed anywhere has to be imported, but if it were legal, the southwest areas could grow poppies, I believe the pharma companies grow some of their poppies for opiate meds here, legalizing would take the cartels completely out of the game, and thus a HUGE part of the cost, the cartels must spend a lot of money to ensure their product reaches the US, they have to buy DEA agents, ‘mules’ to carry it, people they trust to distribute it, and especially trustworthy people to ensure the cash proceeds make it back to the cartels, a lot of violence results in this, violence= money.

There is an easy solution to stop the drug trade, go to the source, and stop the production and flow, destroy the fields, poppie plants do not produce much morphine, so it takes 100s of 1000s of acres to keep every US city supplied…if the US can find one guy globally (Bin Laden), I have no doubt they can easily find 100,000+ acres of flowers in Mexico, if the death rates from its use are true, then entering Mexico to do this would be justified.

The problem is the corruption involved, anyone knows to go after the source to get rid of a problem, thats the whole idea with the ear on terror, the war on drugs is different though, while its killing many, its also bringing in loads of cash for a lot of people, somehow I doubt the DEA would like if all the cash/ property seizures to come to an end…therein lies the problem, its FAR more beneficial to ‘treat’ the problem than to cure it.

If you know of corrupt DEA agents then be a good citizen and turn them in.

 

[BornInMarch]

There is no reward for sending people to prison. I’m guessing you don’t really know many judges. I do and they do not like sending people to prison. There are no laws making prison life “Hell-on-Earth”. Is prison hard? Yep. People who don’t want to be in prison should then conform their behavior is such a way they don’t end up there.

Even if we ignore the less-than-honest judges, sending people to prison makes Judges and Politicians look better for voting season. Nobody want’s to vote for a politician who is “soft on crime”.

Prisoners are sexually assaulted on an alarming basis, and many report the guards looking the other way and refusing to punish the rapists. Look at movies and tv shows; way too many of them treat getting raped in prison as a laughing matter. If a televison show made a joke about campus rape, it would be met with protests and angry news articles. But make a “don’t drop the soap” joke, or even claim prisoners deserve it, and everyone will think it’s funny.
Even apart from that there’s still the fact that prisons are extremely overcrowded and unsanitary (leading to outbreaks of disease).

Again untrue. Medical care in prison is one of the biggest expenses taxpayers will pay. There is this group of smart lawyers who work in DC. They’re called the Supreme Court. These folks said all prison inmates MUST get medical care regardless. Do they get premium care and any drugs they may want? No but if that is what they need they should have stayed home.

It is an undisputed fact that medical care for prisons have been cut in some states, and the increase of privately owned prisons like the GEO Group means that prisons are being run like businesses (that means cutting corners). The Supreme Court says that they have to give prisoners something - Thank God, because I honestly believe prisons would require inmates to pay for their own food unless legally told to provide it free- but that does not mean all prisons comply.

The loss of some civil rights is fair. Why should people who refuse to conform to the laws of society be allowed the same rights those of who do conform?

That’s not what Rights are. Privileges can be taken away, but rights never should. Rights are supposed to be absolutely inalienable, no matter what. Even if you commit a crime, your rights are still supposed to be inalienable.

In any case, voting is not just some civil right. It’s not even just some human right; it is THE human right. Voting means representation: if you can’t vote, then the politicians do not represent you and will have no reason to act with your interest in mind. And yet ex-convicts are not civilly dead when the government benefits: they still have to pay taxes to a government they have no say in.

There’s a reason pretty much the rest of the world lets its prisoners vote: not doing so flies in the face of Unalienable Human Rights.

Easy fix - Obey the laws.

I underlined all the places where you said something along the lines of this, and all I can say is that Prisoners are not a race of demons. They are human beings, not too different than you.
Prisons are called “Correctional Facilities” for a reason: that reason is that they are (or at least, were originally) meant as places to corner off dangerious individuals so they can be prevented from harming others until such time as they rehabilitated and turned back into productive members of society.

Prisons are not meant to give the rest of us the catharsis of revenge. That’s not justice, that’s sadism.

Instead of acting like prisoners don’t deserve to be treated like human beings, and instead of taunting them for things they can’t change (and the past is something the can not change), you should try thinking of ways to rehabilitate as many of them as possible.

It’s not just a justice reason: there are selfish reasons for favoring rehabilitation over revenge. The fact is that recidivism is a very severe problem in society, and tacking on punishments (as though years of isolation wasn’t sufficient) only makes recidivism worse. If someone committed a crime against me, and I had a choice between a system which turned him into an outcast/second-class citizen or a system which tried to rehabilitate him, I’d choose the one which has the lower chance of him hurting someone else.

I spent my career working the criminal justice field, the last several years as a program manager in a men’s prison. I also have a family member in prison. The one thing you can count on from prisoner is they will tell the best story to get their way. No right or wrong, just get what they want. If I had a dollar for every sad story I heard I could have retired 5 years before I did.

In 2013, 29,000 California prisoners staged a mass hunger strike. They were protesting indefinite solitary confinement (the average person can only stay in solitary confinement a few weeks before going mad - some prisoners were put there permanently). Instead of even hearing the prisoners out, the judges ruled in favor of force feeding them.

Yeah, I somehow don’t think “all prisoners are selfish liars” is an accurate stance.

 

[BornInMarch]

There is plenty of benefit to send people to prison…mainly, the FOR PROFIT prison system…crime is their bread and butter, if drugs were suddenly legalized, this would be bad news for the prison industry and LE agencies alike, keeping drugs illegal ensure an endless supply of law breakers that commit crimes to support their habit, mandatory sentences ensure a long stay as well.

Keeping drugs illegal only benefit the prison industry, LE agencies, the cartels and the pharma industry…likely a whole lot of collusion between these 4 entities…following the money is usually the easiest way to spot true corruption, in this case, its pretty easy to see who benefits.

You have to admit, (especially in a post 9-11 world), the cartels consistently get enough of their products thru the border to keep the entire country fully supplied, is pretty suspect. I dont think its any coincidence either, without that constant stream, there would be no reason for addicts to rob, steal and commit other crimes to get money to buy the drugs in the first place.

Furthermore, this nationwide Heroin epidemic that is killing 10s of 1000s, could be considered an invasion, the military normally deals with invasions that kill people, with hostile force, no matter what the country of origin, but for some reason, they just cant seem to locate the acres and acres of poppie fields in Mexico to destroy??..YEAH RIGHT! Doing that would grind the whole system to a halt.

If our government actually treated and attempted to cure drug addicts (instead of throwing them behind bars), then the War on Drugs would be less disastrous.

But that wouldn’t give anyone the catharsis of “getting even!”. Scientists found that the same part of the brain that lights up during cocaine use also lights up when someone is angry to the point of hatred.

In the middle ages, thieves would have their hands chopped off as punishment. In the 20s and 30s, prisoners would be executed with painful electricity despite the availability of medication capable of causing overdose. Justice is practical and ethical, but sadistic revenge gives a chemical rush.

 

[mikekle]

If our government actually treated and attempted to cure drug addicts (instead of throwing them behind bars), then the War on Drugs would be less disastrous.

But that wouldn’t give anyone the catharsis of “getting even!”. Scientists found that the same part of the brain that lights up during cocaine use also lights up when someone is angry to the point of hatred.

.

Sure, our society wants to punish those who choose to use drugs, even though addiction is proven to be a disease, Using law enforcement to try and solve the drug problem is medieval mentality. If DOJ and our LE agencies feel so strongly their approach is best, why arent they trying to treat people with other diseases in the same fashion?

Also, ‘treating’ a condition is far more profitable than curing one, if many of our diseases could be cured today, there would be no need for expensive medical procedures, medicine, doctors.

Its kind of strange in this day and age, when we claim to be so smart and coming up with solutions for everything, no cures for major diseases have been discovered, only ‘effective treatments’, but only the type where you have to keep coming back.

 

[Horton]

Even if we ignore the less-than-honest judges, sending people to prison makes Judges and Politicians look better for voting season. Nobody want’s to vote for a politician who is “soft on crime”.

Prisoners are sexually assaulted on an alarming basis, and many report the guards looking the other way and refusing to punish the rapists. Look at movies and tv shows; way too many of them treat getting raped in prison as a laughing matter. If a televison show made a joke about campus rape, it would be met with protests and angry news articles. But make a “don’t drop the soap” joke, or even claim prisoners deserve it, and everyone will think it’s funny.
Even apart from that there’s still the fact that prisons are extremely overcrowded and unsanitary (leading to outbreaks of disease).

It is an undisputed fact that medical care for prisons have been cut in some states, and the increase of privately owned prisons like the GEO Group means that prisons are being run like businesses (that means cutting corners). The Supreme Court says that they have to give prisoners something - Thank God, because I honestly believe prisons would require inmates to pay for their own food unless legally told to provide it free- but that does not mean all prisons comply.

That’s not what Rights are. Privileges can be taken away, but rights never should. Rights are supposed to be absolutely inalienable, no matter what. Even if you commit a crime, your rights are still supposed to be inalienable.

In any case, voting is not just some civil right. It’s not even just some human right; it is THE human right. Voting means representation: if you can’t vote, then the politicians do not represent you and will have no reason to act with your interest in mind. And yet ex-convicts are not civilly dead when the government benefits: they still have to pay taxes to a government they have no say in.

There’s a reason pretty much the rest of the world lets its prisoners vote: not doing so flies in the face of Unalienable Human Rights.

I underlined all the places where you said something along the lines of this, and all I can say is that Prisoners are not a race of demons. They are human beings, not too different than you.
Prisons are called “Correctional Facilities” for a reason: that reason is that they are (or at least, were originally) meant as places to corner off dangerious individuals so they can be prevented from harming others until such time as they rehabilitated and turned back into productive members of society.

Prisons are

not meant to give the rest of us the catharsis of revenge. That’s not justice, that’s sadism.

Instead of acting like prisoners don’t deserve to be treated like human beings, and instead of taunting them for things they can’t change (and the past is something the can not change), you should try thinking of ways to rehabilitate as many of them as possible.

It’s not just a justice reason: there are selfish reasons for favoring rehabilitation over revenge. The fact is that recidivism is a very severe problem in society, and tacking on punishments (as though years of isolation wasn’t sufficient) only makes recidivism worse. If someone committed a crime against me, and I had a choice between a system which turned him into an outcast/second-class citizen or a system which tried to rehabilitate him, I’d choose the one which has the lower chance of him hurting someone else.

In 2013, 29,000 California prisoners staged a mass hunger strike. They were protesting indefinite solitary confinement (the average person can only stay in solitary confinement a few weeks before going mad - some prisoners were put there permanently). Instead of even hearing the prisoners out, the judges ruled in favor of force feeding them.

Yeah, I somehow don’t think “all prisoners are selfish liars” is an accurate stance.

Did you miss the part where I said I was a program manager in a prison? I supervised education, both vocational and academic, and treatment delivery. Rehabilitation is what my career was about. Until you can backup with any actual knowledge what you are saying here I’m just going to assume your more interested in rhetoric than solutions. Because trust me, if you have real and proven solutions, most prison systems want to hear them. If all you want to do is whine & complain, then leave it alone.

 

[mikekle]

Did you miss the part where I said I was a program manager in a prison? I supervised education, both vocational and academic, and treatment delivery. Rehabilitation is what my career was about. Until you can backup with any actual knowledge what you are saying here I’m just going to assume your more interested in rhetoric than solutions. Because trust me, if you have real and proven solutions, most prison systems want to hear them. If all you want to do is whine & complain, then leave it alone.

How are many of these former inmates able to get decent jobs after getting out though, background checks are done in just about every company nowadays, and even the slightest crime, the applicant is rejected. Seems like they desire to hold a person to their crime for life these days.

Although I did hear recently there is a push to get rid of the conviction question on applications, I hope this goes thru. I think the best way to ensure majority of former criminals turn their life around is to make sure they are ABLE to, and not to put up roadblocks in their path.

Maybe create a law where only certain industries can run pre-hire background checks (banks, hospitals, childcare, etc), treat the background report like a medical record, (only a select few can access under certain circumstances). Also I think convictions should drop off automatically after so long (15-20 yrs). I still have a goofy alcohol possession charge from when I was 18yo…I am 41 now!! My company I work for now, laughed, could not believe that was still on there. I havent had any convictions since, after someone goes for so long and stays clean, their record should be cleared.

Before someone says it, I know about expunging, in my case, its not worth it, as my crime has not held me back in anyway, but I imagine if it was for something like shoplifting, drugs, or writing bad checks, etc, it probably would have…ALL crimes should come off after a long period of proven change.(especially drug charges, as many people get and stay clean).

 

[Horton]

How are many of these former inmates able to get decent jobs after getting out though, background checks are done in just about every company nowadays, and even the slightest crime, the applicant is rejected. Seems like they desire to hold a person to their crime for life these days.

Although I did hear recently there is a push to get rid of the conviction question on applications, I hope this goes thru. I think the best way to ensure majority of former criminals turn their life around is to make sure they are ABLE to, and not to put up roadblocks in their path.

Maybe create a law where only certain industries can run pre-hire background checks (banks, hospitals, childcare, etc), treat the background report like a medical record, (only a select few can access under certain circumstances). Also I think convictions should drop off automatically after so long (15-20 yrs). I still have a goofy alcohol possession charge from when I was 18yo…I am 41 now!! My company I work for now, laughed, could not believe that was still on there. I havent had any convictions since, after someone goes for so long and stays clean, their record should be cleared.

Before someone says it, I know about expunging, in my case, its not worth it, as my crime has not held me back in anyway, but I imagine if it was for something like shoplifting, drugs, or writing bad checks, etc, it probably would have…ALL crimes should come off after a long period of proven change.(especially drug charges, as many people get and stay clean).

The road blocks are minimal and mostly of the person’s own making. Most former inmates don’t really have problems finding jobs, they have problems keeping them. Where they lack is in the soft skills and that is taught in prison programs. Some get some real vocational training in certain industries.

Again I have to ask where you are getting all the information? You haven’t answered that question yet. As far as crimes coming off a criminal record - why? Shouldn’t a trucking company know a guy has several DUI arrests? Should a retailer know a new hire has a problem with stealing money? Should a hospital know the new CNA has a drug problem? Shouldn’t a school know the janitor has been arrested for touching kids? At some point the protection of society overrides the rights of a criminal offender.

 

[mikekle]

The road blocks are minimal and mostly of the person’s own making. Most former inmates don’t really have problems finding jobs, they have problems keeping them. Where they lack is in the soft skills and that is taught in prison programs. Some get some real vocational training in certain industries.

Again I have to ask where you are getting all the information? You haven’t answered that question yet. As far as crimes coming off a criminal record - why? Shouldn’t a trucking company know a guy has several DUI arrests? Should a retailer know a new hire has a problem with stealing money? Should a hospital know the new CNA has a drug problem? Shouldn’t a school know the janitor has been arrested for touching kids? At some point the protection of society overrides the rights of a criminal offender.

What information are you talking about? If its about background checks, I am a corporate rep for a gas station/ convenience store chain, and am directly involved in store operations, our hiring process is very strict, drug testing and background checks for everyone, even cashiers, this has caused a big staffing problem for us recently, 75% of applicants are rejected due to drugs or criminal record, and this is for a minimum wage cashier job.

We are currently considering lowering the hiring standards to get more employees though.

You are right about all those industries needing to know about employees, but up until fairly recently, background checks were not done on new hires anywhere, as early as the mid 90s, a felon could get a job anywhere by just lying on the application, and had been this way for a long time, seems like we have more workplace problems today than we did back in the 70s, 80s, 90s, when none of these pre-hire practices were done…shouldnt that actually be the other way around?

 

[Horton]

What information are you talking about? If its about background checks, I am a corporate rep for a gas station/ convenience store chain, and am directly involved in store operations, our hiring process is very strict, drug testing and background checks for everyone, even cashiers, this has caused a big staffing problem for us recently, 75% of applicants are rejected due to drugs or criminal record, and this is for a minimum wage cashier job.

We are currently considering lowering the hiring standards to get more employees though.

You are right about all those industries needing to know about employees, but up until fairly recently, background checks were not done on new hires anywhere, as early as the mid 90s, a felon could get a job anywhere by just lying on the application, and had been this way for a long time, seems like we have more workplace problems today than we did back in the 70s, 80s, 90s, when none of these pre-hire practices were done…shouldnt that actually be the other way around?

Have you heard of technology? In all seriousness, in the past not having access to criminal backgrounds was only beneficial to the person with a criminal past. Sex offenders could lie and work in schools, thieves could work at the local retail outlet, and so on. Just because a business does background checks doesn’t mean they don’t hire people with criminal records. I worked with employers and trade schools about this very thing. Most would hire a felon but they wanted to know who they were hiring and if that person was a risk to their company.

RE: Bolding - This is what trips up most felons. They lie about their history and when the parole office comes around to the work site to check on them the employer finds out the guy has a record. Many employers would hire a felon, but draw the line at one who lies on their application.

 

[BornInMarch]

Did you miss the part where I said I was a program manager in a prison? I supervised education, both vocational and academic, and treatment delivery. Rehabilitation is what my career was about. Until you can backup with any actual knowledge what you are saying here I’m just going to assume your more interested in rhetoric than solutions. Because trust me, if you have real and proven solutions, most prison systems want to hear them. If all you want to do is whine & complain, then leave it alone.

Horton, I wish to apologize if any of my language came out as angry or overly-emotional. I understand that your profession gives you experience in this area, and I appreciate what you do because it is necessary for a civilization to function.

Truth be told, I am just tired. Tired of the US having the largest prisoner population, the highest recidivism rate, the most mentally ill persons behind bars, and I am tired of media acting like rape becomes funny if it happens to a prisoner.

If what the US is doing in respect to prisons is fair and reasonable, then why does the United States have these problems?

As far as actual solutions, I think building state mental hospitals to treat people with mental illnesses would be a good start. More mentally ill persons end up behind bars than in hospitals these days, and that is tragic as mental illness by definition takes away any ability to rationally think and make decisions (meaning they could never fully understand what they did wrong, or why it was wrong).

I will admit I don’t have all the answers: I only know about these things from researching scholarly sources, and if solutions were easy the problems would already have been solved.

 

[Crusaderbear]

I’m not sure these problems are strictly American, we just tend to admit we have them more than others…

 

[Ph0enix]

clemencyreport.org/top-10-outrageous-marijuana-sentences/

I just found this, and look I’m not a huge fan of marijuana, but life sentences for smoking weed is ridiculous.

Yes

I watched a video on it where someone did weed and got more time than a sexual offender.

While i dont condone weed I dont think one should go to prison for it

 

[mikekle]

Yes

I watched a video on it where someone did weed and got more time than a sexual offender.

While i dont condone weed I dont think one should go to prison for it

I agree, in fact, I dont believe any drug should land someone in jail, its not an effective way to deal with the problem. Addiction has been proven time and again to be a medical disease, trying to treat this using law enforcement is useless.

I believe whenever drugs are part of a crime or the crime, the police should hand it over to the CDC, law enforcement has no place in the war on drugs.

 

[Horton]

Yes

I watched a video on it where someone did weed and got more time than a sexual offender.

While i dont condone weed I dont think one should go to prison for it

Can you find one inmate in the US whose only offense is smoking pot? That the only crime they ever committed was smoking marijuana? Identify one person whose is in prison for only smoking a joint.

 

[vz71]

Can you find one inmate in the US whose only offense is smoking pot? That the only crime they ever committed was smoking marijuana? Identify one person whose is in prison for only smoking a joint.

Agreed.
There is always another crime.