Is sexual self-abuse missing form psychological definitions of abuse?

[Michael19682]

That’s great - but you’re missing the point. You’re not allowed to hold this position as a matter of intellectual honesty. Because the objective position, the one held by intellectually honest Believers and Non-Believers alike, is that God’s existence is, above all, disputed. Not undeniably false, but certainly not undeniably true.

We can leave it here, if you like. Just so long as you understand that we’re not ending the argument here because we don’t agree on your first principle. We’re ending the argument because you mistakenly believe, first, that your first principle is properly basic, and second, that no debate can feasibly occur without agreement on it.

Ok then. Dispute God’s existence (or don’t). It would represent an enormous digression. Or you can debate the other points that I raised in response. (there was the genetics example, as one)

 

[Giants]

Ok then. Dispute God’s existence (or don’t). It would represent an enormous digression. Or you can debate the other points that I raised in response. (there was the genetics example, as one)

Again, this is not about me. If you’re going to draw a line in the sand and refuse to presume, even for the sake of an argument, anything but the indisputable truth of God’s existence, then there really is no point in going further. However enormous the digression in your mind, if God really doesn’t exist, then that is simply a fact of reality that must be accounted for while we debate issues like sexual self-abuse. For any thoughtful discussion to take place, the possibility that God might not exist must be on the table. And not just for me, but for you too. Otherwise, I run the risk of addressing your reply, point-by-point, and watching you dismiss it all with an imperial wave of your hand and a blind assertion that none of it counts, since God’s existence is understood to be indisputably true in the first place.

 

[Michael19682]

Again, this is not about me. If you’re going to draw a line in the sand and refuse to presume, even for the sake of an argument, anything but the indisputable truth of God’s existence, then there really is no point in going further. However enormous the digression in your mind, if God really doesn’t exist, then that is simply a fact of reality that must be accounted for while we debate issues like sexual self-abuse. For any thoughtful discussion to take place, the possibility that God might not exist must be on the table. And not just for me, but for you too. Otherwise, I run the risk of addressing your reply, point-by-point, and watching you dismiss it all with an imperial wave of your hand and a blind assertion that none of it counts, since God’s existence is understood to be indisputably true in the first place.

Ok. His existence might be in question, but his recorded words are not. They are, after all present for anyone to read. Ironically, if you take his existence as factor only from the equation, then you have an even more enormously imposing argument against masturbation. Discouragement with regard to it then becomes rooted in man’s psyche as from myth and legend, which is what the Bible becomes for those who don;t acknowledge God. Thus, it remains possible that even a geneticist would say that to feel harm from masturbation is in some people’s genes. I wonder what you would say to that premise. I mean, if God can be droppped from the question as a matter of folly, then it is only fair to question the other extreme, geneticism.

 

[DarkLight]

Where do I call guilt a ‘mental illness?’ I do say the shame and guilt are symptoms of the mental illness, but nowhere do I claim that guilt over sin as a mental illness, but yes, they are symptoms.

You call guilt and shame over your own actions “symptoms”. The only way they are valid symptoms is if you assume you didn’t do anything wrong.

I went through abuse, genuine abuse, that left me with flashbacks and nightmares and difficulty even holding down a job or finishing school. You calling your guilt a “symptom” is an insult to Christian morality and to those of us who actually suffered.

 

[Robert_Sock]

You call guilt and shame over your own actions “symptoms”. The only way they are valid symptoms is if you assume you didn’t do anything wrong.

I went through abuse, genuine abuse, that left me with flashbacks and nightmares and difficulty even holding down a job or finishing school. You calling your guilt a “symptom” is an insult to Christian morality and to those of us who actually suffered.

But I suffered severe self-abuse which is what I’m trying to bring to people’s attention. Severe self-abuse is REAL, and it must be openly discussed and accepted as a clinical diagnosis. And, yes, shame and guilt are symptoms of this type of abuse.

 

[DarkLight]

But I suffered severe self-abuse which is what I’m trying to bring to people’s attention. Severe self-abuse is REAL, and it must be openly discussed and accepted as a clinical diagnosis. And, yes, shame and guilt are symptoms of this type of abuse.

Seriously? You have the gall to put masturbation in the same category as rape and molestation? Shame of that sort isn’t even a real symptom of anything other than sin.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Seriously? You have the gall to put masturbation in the same category as rape and molestation? Shame of that sort isn’t even a real symptom of anything other than sin.

I’m not necessarily talking about rape or molestation. And I’m not necessarily talking about masturbation. Again, I’m talking about the fantasy gone astray. What I’m suggesting is that abnormal sexual fantasy is deadly! The fantasy in rape and molestation involves self-abuse too.

What I’m suggesting is the need for a new, reclassification of psychological disorders. When will psychologist recognize that it’s the acting out of fantasy that is to blame for certain disorders across several current disorders.

 

[Sair]

I believe sexual self abuse is real and lacking as a diagnosis in psychology. It may sound like it would be directed to pornography and masturbation, but it can also arise from immoral sexual behavior, such as anal intercourse and homosexuality.

Why can’t psychologists see that sexual self abuse exists and is rampant in society? I believe it’s because a psychologist’s view must conform to the swinging of the pendulum of social conformity and change.

There was a time when such practices were considered to be the result of psychological disorder. Fortunately, the medical profession has become more enlightened in recent decades, as to the broad spectrum of human sexuality…

 

[Sair]

I’m not necessarily talking about rape or molestation. And I’m not necessarily talking about masturbation. Again, I’m talking about the fantasy gone astray. What I’m suggesting is that abnormal sexual fantasy is deadly! The fantasy in rape and molestation involves self-abuse too.

What I’m suggesting is the need for a new, reclassification of psychological disorders. When will psychologist recognize that it’s the acting out of fantasy that is to blame for certain disorders across several current disorders.

Rape and molestation are considered to be disordered not because they are related to non-vanilla sexual practices, but because they are inherently abusive. They are the latter because by definition, they are nonconsensual and involve a misuse of power. It doesn’t actually matter, from the point of view of the effects upon the victim, whether the rapist or molester is acting out a fantasy or not.

At the end of the day, what a person does with their privates is, really, a private affair, so long as they respect the boundaries of others. The minute they don’t do so, any sexual activity - hetero, homo, or whatever - becomes an act of abuse that needs to be addressed.

 

[Sair]

But I suffered severe self-abuse which is what I’m trying to bring to people’s attention. Severe self-abuse is REAL, and it must be openly discussed and accepted as a clinical diagnosis. And, yes, shame and guilt are symptoms of this type of abuse.

Shame and guilt are a function of the context in which you consider an activity. If you are raised to consider masturbation, for example, to be a perfectly normal part of human sexual expression, it’s quite unlikely that you’ll get to the point where it becomes obsessive and potentially damaging in a psychological sense.

If, however, you are raised to believe (as I was, and as, I suspect, many Catholics have been) that masturbation is a mortal sin, that can give rise to all kinds of unhealthy perceptions, including beating onesself up with guilt and shame over something that is not inherently harmful. In terms of factual, physiological evidence, masturbation is actually quite a healthy practice in due moderation (like many other things). You might like to look into the documented mental and physical benefits of regular orgasm…

 

[Giants]

Ok. His existence might be in question, but his recorded words are not. They are, after all present for anyone to read. Ironically, if you take his existence as factor only from the equation, then you have an even more enormously imposing argument against masturbation. Discouragement with regard to it then becomes rooted in man’s psyche as from myth and legend, which is what the Bible becomes for those who don;t acknowledge God. Thus, it remains possible that even a geneticist would say that to feel harm from masturbation is in some people’s genes. I wonder what you would say to that premise. I mean, if God can be droppped from the question as a matter of folly, then it is only fair to question the other extreme, geneticism.

I doubt any geneticist would ever make any such claim. To be sure, our brain chemistry, as determined by our collective DNA, allows for all of us to feel shame and embarrassment. What causes us to feel these emotions is not a matter of genetics however. It varies across cultures, and across time.

 

[Michael19682]

I doubt any geneticist would ever make any such claim. To be sure, our brain chemistry, as determined by our collective DNA, allows for all of us to feel shame and embarrassment. What causes us to feel these emotions is not a matter of genetics however. It varies across cultures, and across time.

With all due respect to your dignity as a person, your “doubts” nor those of geneticists constitute proof nor are they a guide for a moral public policy that if made erroneously could jeapodize the health of the American public. Recall Clinton’s surgeon general who was ousted effectively (asked to resign) when she suggested the kind of policy you suggest.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Shame and guilt are a function of the context in which you consider an activity. If you are raised to consider masturbation, for example, to be a perfectly normal part of human sexual expression, it’s quite unlikely that you’ll get to the point where it becomes obsessive and potentially damaging in a psychological sense.

If, however, you are raised to believe (as I was, and as, I suspect, many Catholics have been) that masturbation is a mortal sin, that can give rise to all kinds of unhealthy perceptions, including beating onesself up with guilt and shame over something that is not inherently harmful. In terms of factual, physiological evidence, masturbation is actually quite a healthy practice in due moderation (like many other things). You might like to look into the documented mental and physical benefits of regular orgasm…

Again, fantasy, especially sexual fantasy, can greatly hinder the development of the “self.” I grew up in an environment where I thought it was healthy to engage in masturbation, but I eventually learned that sexual fantasy determines who we are, through the development of the self. Sin remains in the self until we repent and seek the sacrament of reconciliation.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Again, fantasy, especially sexual fantasy, can greatly hinder the development of the “self.”

What does it mean for the development of the self to be hindered? Or another way of asking is what are the differences in a person that has been hindered and a person that has not? Is it detectable through any behaviour or other attributes?

 

[Robert_Sock]

What does it mean for the development of the self to be hindered? Or another way of asking is what are the differences in a person that has been hindered and a person that has not? Is it detectable through any behaviour or other attributes?

The biggest difference between the self abused group and the non self abuse group involves sexual promiscuity and dangerously high levels of sexual desire. They become sex worshipers, worshiping a false god. Fantasies can also give rise to rape and sexual molestation, whereby the fantasy becomes a part of their self identity. They are all ‘forced’ to grow into sexual perverts of one sort or another. And I believe self-abusers are under the power of Satan.

 

[DarkLight]

I see no reason to believe that most rapists or abuser are mentally disordered, though. If they were mentally ill, we shouldn’t punish them for what they do, because mental illness means people can’t control their own actions. Mental illness is something people cannot help. The abuser sins, and by definition that means his actions are not from mental illness.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I see no reason to believe that most rapists or abuser are mentally disordered, though. If they were mentally ill, we shouldn’t punish them for what they do, because mental illness means people can’t control their own actions. Mental illness is something people cannot help. The abuser sins, and by definition that means his actions are not from mental illness.

I think you’re confused. Oftentimes people have a choice early on whether to engage in behavior that leads to mental illness. Drug induced mental illnesses come to mind here. I encourage you to read the antecedents to mental disorders and see the behaviors that contribute to that mental illness. Also, I encourage you to explore the rape and molestation literature to see how rapist, molesters and other sex offenders are held less culprit-able given their mental illness. Instead of being sentenced to prison terms, the offender can be hospitalized.

The CCC also states that masturbation needs to take into account the ways in which outside factors affect the development of masturbation in judging whether or not a sin has been committed.

 

[DarkLight]

I think you’re confused. Oftentimes people have a choice early on whether to engage in behavior that leads to mental illness. Drug induced mental illnesses come to mind here. I encourage you to read the antecedents to mental disorders and see the behaviors that contribute to that mental illness. Also, I encourage you to explore the rape and molestation literature to see how rapist, molesters and other sex offenders are held less culprit-able given their mental illness. Instead of being sentenced to prison terms, the offender can be hospitalized.

The CCC also states that masturbation needs to take into account the ways in which outside factors affect the development of masturbation in judging whether or not a sin has been committed.

Erm, hello? I’ve been anti-assault activist for several years now, as well as being a victim myself. The vast majority of rapes are committed by men with no discernible mental illness. Where are you getting all this information on “mental illness” from? It resembles nothing I’ve seen in either criminal statistics or mental health literature, and I’ve read quite a bit on both. Studies show very little difference in mental health between rapists and normal healthy men. Most men that get off do so because our society wants to “let him off easy” because of the victim’s behavior. And mental health treatment for these men does almost nothing.

Yes, there are factors. There are some cases where a genuine mental illness exists. But this does not account for most cases.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Erm, hello? I’ve been anti-assault activist for several years now, as well as being a victim myself. The vast majority of rapes are committed by men with no discernible mental illness. Where are you getting all this information on “mental illness” from? It resembles nothing I’ve seen in either criminal statistics or mental health literature, and I’ve read quite a bit on both. Studies show very little difference in mental health between rapists and normal healthy men. Most men that get off do so because our society wants to “let him off easy” because of the victim’s behavior. And mental health treatment for these men does almost nothing.

Yes, there are factors. There are some cases where a genuine mental illness exists. But this does not account for most cases.

"I know of nothing good living in me – living, that is, in my unspiritual self – for though the will to do what is good is in me, the performance is not, with the result that instead of doing the good things I want to do, I carry out the sinful things I do not want. When I act against my will, then, it is not my true self doing it, but sin which lives in me.

In fact, this seems to be the rule, that every single time I want to do good it is something evil that comes to hand. In my inmost self I dearly love God’s Law, but I can see that my body follows a different law that battles against the law which my reason dictates. This is what makes me a prisoner of that law of sin which lives inside my body.

What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body doomed to death?"
-Romans 7:18-25

In correcting rapist and molesters, one must focus on how the fantasy is merged with the self. Religion is the best treatment for such disorders.

 

[DarkLight]

"I know of nothing good living in me – living, that is, in my unspiritual self – for though the will to do what is good is in me, the performance is not, with the result that instead of doing the good things I want to do, I carry out the sinful things I do not want. When I act against my will, then, it is not my true self doing it, but sin which lives in me.

In fact, this seems to be the rule, that every single time I want to do good it is something evil that comes to hand. In my inmost self I dearly love God’s Law, but I can see that my body follows a different law that battles against the law which my reason dictates. This is what makes me a prisoner of that law of sin which lives inside my body.

What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body doomed to death?"
-Romans 7:18-25

In correcting rapist and molesters, one must focus on how the fantasy is merged with the self. Religion is the best treatment for such disorders.

This is my whole point. Moral disorders belong to the realm of religion. Psychological disorders belong to the realm of mental illness. By making it out to be a mental illness, you fundamentally remove it from its own proper field of treatment and put it in an area that does not know how to handle it. Psychology does not deal with good and evil, just as religion does not deal with brain chemistry.