Is slavery in itself okay?

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Actually as someone who read 99% of the posts in that thread I can tell you, there was a lot of misunderstanding. One atheist argued virginity, purity, innocence should not be valued. Many people took that to mean not valued at all. You then had 7 pages of the thread based on refuting that claim which ended up to not be what was meant I believe.
Yeah, I can understand that. I think that happens a lot. Sometimes I think it would be so much better if we could get together and talk to each other face-to-face. Most of us just aren’t very good at communicating via computer.
 
Yeah, I can understand that. I think that happens a lot. Sometimes I think it would be so much better if we could get together and talk to each other face-to-face. Most of us just aren’t very good at communicating via computer.
Most of us also have preconceived notions of what we think the other people believe to begin with as well, so when there is any doubt what someone means we assume they mean what our biases tell us they mean. That’s probably the biggest culprit 😃
 
If I’m reading what you said right, you would say that buying a slave to let them literally go free even if the law still sees them as being your legal property is wrong? In other words if its not possible to legally emancipate a slave, your not allowed to buy them and let them go free? That is an interesting position to take but you could be right. The only way it would wrong to ever do so though, would be if legally owning a slave was intrinsically evil. If it is not, then it would fall to the principle of double effect and whether you are doing more harm than good buy buying a slave that you cannot set free legally. I would think the Church would have spoken on this point so that people who lived in places where slavery was still legal would know what to do though.
Dear Nate13,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

What is very interesting, dear friend, is that when St. Paul appeals to Philemon as a Christian owner of a slave he neversuggests that slavery per se is immoral. Yet surely this would have been most natural, since he was dealing with a situation within a local church setting and not preaching publicly in such a manner so as to inflame the Roman authorities.

In view of all the callous brutality which has been associated wth slavery all through the years, it becomes jolly difficult to see the institution apart from the savagery with which it has been surrounded. What then, we must ask, is the essential idea of slavery, when stripped of its accompanying abuses? It is surely the right of one man to share in the outcome of the labour of another, when the other is forced to render it. Now there is nothing intrinsically immoral in sharing in the fruit of another man’s toil. After all, in the relation between a master and free servant, when once the latter has agreed the terms of service, the contract means a sharing of one in the fruit of the other’s labour; and that labour must be rendered because of the terms already agreed. Thus in the O.T., there is envisaged the possibility of the slave, who voluntarily continues as such, relinquishing his freedom and preferring to remain as the slave of a man he both trusts and loves (Ex. 21: 5; Dt. 15: 16). Further, if a man becomes indebted to another, where is the essential immorality of his repaying the debt by means of labour rendered? Yet this labour by its nature is something forced, which is precisely the essence of slavery.

There may not have been a condemnation of slavery in the N.T., but it had something to say on the subject which entailed a radical transformation of the attitude to be adopted to it. St. Paul, for example, insists, “Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal”. So the labour of the slave is to receive an adequate and fair reward. However, if this is applied, then it elevates his status to that of the free man who is under contract. What it means, my dear friend, is that payment is not a mere pittance to keep the slave sufficiently healthy for further work. It means rather that he is to recompensed in accordance with the service rendered, and this clearly involves food, clothing and the ability to maintain family life. This kind of ‘slavery’ is far removed from the wretched servitude of the unfortunate serfs in your average pagan Roman household.

Then St. Paul teaches slaves that they are to consider themselves as persons. When he says “Servants,obey in all things your masters”, he actually taking a wholly new approach to slaves, for to exhort someone to a course of action is surely to treat them as responsible moral beings. However, this is precisely what had not been done hitherto; and the result must have been seen not only in the mind of the slave’s owner but of the slave himself. Treat a man with brutal disregard and he will loose all self-respect and will become a servile cringing creature. He will cease to look upon himself as a man. In short he will become brutalized. Thus what St. Paul does is to teach the Christian slave a new self-respect. He is not like the beast of burden compelled by force to do a job. No, he is achild of God, conscious of his responsibility before God, and seeing even his condition as one where he can indeed glorify his Saviour.

Now I do realize that masters were not always Christian, nor were they always kind. Nevertheless, the Gospel demanded that even harsh and unjust punishment was to be accepted without outburst of curse or threat. Slaves were to suffer patiently, following in Christ’s footsteps, who although guiltless, meekly submitted to cruel injustice in atonement for the sins of all and as an example to us (I Pet. 2: 18-25). In so doing they would actually be true apostles of Christ by manifesting the attractiveness of their Saviour’s teaching (Titus 2: 9-10). Noble service of God, dear friend, imitation of Christ, the possible conversion of their cruel masters - the implanting of such lofty ideals in the hearts of slaves, was surely a greater triumph for Christianity than any immediate campaingn for the total abolition of slavery could have been. Indeed, the sudden destruction of an institution of so many centuries standing would have scarcely been less unjust and immoral than its maintenance without any qualification or mitigation.

Please forgive my lengthy and discursive post, dear friend, but I think it is of the utmost importance that we do not fall into the simplistic assertion, as some do,that slavery is always intrinsically immoral. It does not necessarily have to be and indeed can be an opportunity to bring much glory to God.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Yes I believe that is obvious. Any laws that view another person as a piece of property are by definition unjust.
Which means slavery is unjust according to you.
If I’m reading what you said right, you would say that buying a slave to let them literally go free even if the law still sees them as being your legal property is wrong?
No. I am saying that purchase with intent (and execution) of immediate manumission as soon as legally possible is different than purchase without this intent and execution. The former is permissible. The second is not. No matter how well you treat your slaves, they are legally your property. Maintaining that system by owning slaves regardless of how well you treat them is wrong.
In other words if its not possible to legally emancipate a slave, your not allowed to buy them and let them go free?
My statement was in reference to manumission. It does not hold if legal manumission is impossible.
 
No, I’m not defending that at all… I thought I asked a pretty simple question. **How do you determine if someone is actually owned? **
  1. Its not the loss of freedom, because people in prison have lost their freedom or at least most of it. This of course only applies if someone has chosen to commit a crime, and their punishment is loss of most of their freedom such as in the case of prisoners of war.
2) Its not the actual technical “ownership” or purchase, because like I said a Northerner might have bought a slave and then let him/her go about whatever they wanted to do while technically they still owned them. Just because the law says you own a slave doesn’t necessarily mean you own one in other words.

Can you give a clear objective way in which to determine if someone is owned, because I’m not seeing it. I’m completely against owning another human being, but it seems hard to describe exactly what that looks like.

Maybe you could describe it as withholding someone’s freedom without just cause?

So its ok to have people working for me by force as long as I don’t consider them my property… The only difference I’m hearing from you between people in jails and prisoners of war way back when is not considering them property in my mind. Even if lets say someone has a prisoner of war and they supposedly “sell him” to another person you could argue they aren’t actually selling the person, they are selling the rights to watch over the person. We might do something similar today where the State contracts out to private prisons to purchase the rights to hold prisoners there. You would never consider that selling people would you?
You can tell if someone is a slave if they are classified as property.
If they can be bought, sold, traded, etc.

Its not that complicated:shrug:
True, not all oppressed people are slaves, and not all slaves are treated equally badly. But that has little to do with the nature or morality of slavery.
 
No, I’m not defending that at all… I thought I asked a pretty simple question. How do you determine if someone is actually owned?
  1. Its not the loss of freedom, because people in prison have lost their freedom or at least most of it. This of course only applies if someone has chosen to commit a crime, and their punishment is loss of most of their freedom such as in the case of prisoners of war.
  2. Its not the actual technical “ownership” or purchase, because like I said a Northerner might have bought a slave and then let him/her go about whatever they wanted to do while technically they still owned them. Just because the law says you own a slave doesn’t necessarily mean you own one in other words.
Can you give a clear objective way in which to determine if someone is owned, because I’m not seeing it. I’m completely against owning another human being, but it seems hard to describe exactly what that looks like.

Maybe you could describe it as withholding someone’s freedom without just cause?

**So its ok to have people working for me by force as long as I don’t consider them my property… **The only difference I’m hearing from you between people in jails and prisoners of war way back when is not considering them property in my mind. Even if lets say someone has a prisoner of war and they supposedly “sell him” to another person you could argue they aren’t actually selling the person, they are selling the rights to watch over the person. We might do something similar today where the State contracts out to private prisons to purchase the rights to hold prisoners there. You would never consider that selling people would you?
Were serfs slaves?
Are the common people in a dictatorship automatically slaves?

The answer is no.
Simply being oppressed and dominated by tyrants doesn’t make you a slave. The distinctive feature of slavery is that slaves aren’t considered people, and do not have whatever rights and protections that should belong to them as people in their society.
 
Actually as someone who read 99% of the posts in that thread I can tell you, there was a lot of misunderstanding. One atheist argued virginity, purity, innocence should not be valued. Many people took that to mean not valued at all. You then had 7 pages of the thread based on refuting that claim which ended up to not be what was meant I believe.
Really?:rolleyes:

And when and where did he say that?
 
Really?:rolleyes:

And when and where did he say that?
Post #20 and post #84. You asked that same question in the thread and I provided the answer. You never responded after that… If you wish to continue talking about that thread I suggest you post in that thread not this one.
 
My statement was in reference to manumission. It does not hold if legal manumission is impossible.
I see, so if I bought a slave but was unable to legally free them, and the slave freely choose to work for me anyways for a just wage I’m not guilty of slavery then am I?
 
Dear Nate13,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

What is very interesting, dear friend, is that when St. Paul appeals to Philemon as a Christian owner of a slave he neversuggests that slavery per se is immoral. Yet surely this would have been most natural, since he was dealing with a situation within a local church setting and not preaching publicly in such a manner so as to inflame the Roman authorities.

In view of all the callous brutality which has been associated wth slavery all through the years, it becomes jolly difficult to see the institution apart from the savagery with which it has been surrounded. ** What then, we must ask, is the essential idea of slavery, when stripped of its accompanying abuses? It is surely the right of one man to share in the outcome of the labour of another, when the other is forced to render it.** Now there is nothing intrinsically immoral in sharing in the fruit of another man’s toil. After all, in the relation between a master and free servant, when once the latter has agreed the terms of service, the contract means a sharing of one in the fruit of the other’s labour; and that labour must be rendered because of the terms already agreed. Thus in the O.T., there is envisaged the possibility of the slave, who voluntarily continues as such, relinquishing his freedom and preferring to remain as the slave of a man he both trusts and loves (Ex. 21: 5; Dt. 15: 16). Further, if a man becomes indebted to another, where is the essential immorality of his repaying the debt by means of labour rendered? Yet this labour by its nature is something forced, which is precisely the essence of slavery.

There may not have been a condemnation of slavery in the N.T., but it had something to say on the subject which entailed a radical transformation of the attitude to be adopted to it. St. Paul, for example, insists, “Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal”. So the labour of the slave is to receive an adequate and fair reward. However, if this is applied, then it elevates his status to that of the free man who is under contract. What it means, my dear friend, is that payment is not a mere pittance to keep the slave sufficiently healthy for further work. It means rather that he is to recompensed in accordance with the service rendered, and this clearly involves food, clothing and the ability to maintain family life. This kind of ‘slavery’ is far removed from the wretched servitude of the unfortunate serfs in your average pagan Roman household.

Then St. Paul teaches slaves that they are to consider themselves as persons. When he says “Servants,obey in all things your masters”, he actually taking a wholly new approach to slaves, for to exhort someone to a course of action is surely to treat them as responsible moral beings. However, this is precisely what had not been done hitherto; and the result must have been seen not only in the mind of the slave’s owner but of the slave himself. Treat a man with brutal disregard and he will loose all self-respect and will become a servile cringing creature. He will cease to look upon himself as a man. In short he will become brutalized. Thus what St. Paul does is to teach the Christian slave a new self-respect. He is not like the beast of burden compelled by force to do a job. No, he is achild of God, conscious of his responsibility before God, and seeing even his condition as one where he can indeed glorify his Saviour.

Now I do realize that masters were not always Christian, nor were they always kind. Nevertheless, the Gospel demanded that even harsh and unjust punishment was to be accepted without outburst of curse or threat. Slaves were to suffer patiently, following in Christ’s footsteps, who although guiltless, meekly submitted to cruel injustice in atonement for the sins of all and as an example to us (I Pet. 2: 18-25). In so doing they would actually be true apostles of Christ by manifesting the attractiveness of their Saviour’s teaching (Titus 2: 9-10). Noble service of God, dear friend, imitation of Christ, the possible conversion of their cruel masters - the implanting of such lofty ideals in the hearts of slaves, was surely a greater triumph for Christianity than any immediate campaingn for the total abolition of slavery could have been. Indeed, the sudden destruction of an institution of so many centuries standing would have scarcely been less unjust and immoral than its maintenance without any qualification or mitigation.

Please forgive my lengthy and discursive post, dear friend, but I think it is of the utmost importance that we do not fall into the simplistic assertion, as some do,that slavery is always intrinsically immoral. It does not necessarily have to be and indeed can be an opportunity to bring much glory to God.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
No.
Although I am curious why other posters here feel the need to glamorize the institution of slavery by pretending that it is something that it is not.

For a bit of context, here is the definition of Slave from Dictionary.com
  1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.
  2. a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person: a slave to a drug.
  3. a drudge: a housekeeping slave.
  4. a slave ant.
  5. Photography . a subsidiary flash lamp actuated through its photoelectric cell when the principal flash lamp is discharged.
Link to source: dictionary.reference.com/browse/Slave?s=t
 
@Portrait
I would say its apparent Paul taught slaves were to be considered people just like everyone else. In other words there are not too classes of people. I would agree with you in that it doesn’t appear Paul believed “owning” a person in and of itself made someone any less of a person. They might have considered indentured servitude to be the same as “owning” a person though and I don’t believe we consider that the same thing today.
 
No.
Although I am curious why other posters here feel the need to glamorize the institution of slavery by pretending that it is something that it is not.

For a bit of context, here is the definition of Slave from Dictionary.com
  1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.
  2. a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person: a slave to a drug.
  3. a drudge: a housekeeping slave.
  4. a slave ant.
  5. Photography . a subsidiary flash lamp actuated through its photoelectric cell when the principal flash lamp is discharged.
Link to source: dictionary.reference.com/browse/Slave?s=t
If the definition of slavery and its broadness changes overtime, its pretty nonsensical to talk about slavery in the 1st century using the definition we have for it today. I guess its too much to ask to have a discussion about events in the past farther back than 10 years without people being pc.
 
Post #20 and post #84. You asked that same question in the thread and I provided the answer. You never responded after that… If you wish to continue talking about that thread I suggest you post in that thread not this one.
N/A, the thread is Closed.
And I assumed that you were talking about me, but since posts 20 and 84 were by other people I guess I was wrong:shrug:
 
I see, so if I bought a slave but was unable to legally free them, and the slave freely choose to work for me anyways for a just wage I’m not guilty of slavery then am I?
A kind slave master (which was most likely not the norm) is still a slave owner.
 
A kind slave master (which was most likely not the norm) is still a slave owner.
Uh I’m not a slave owner…I bought the slave to free them. They made a free choice to work for me. Would you hold me accountable for slavery because the government in charge still considers me a slave owner?
 
@Portrait
I would say its apparent Paul taught slaves were to be considered people just like everyone else. In other words there are not too classes of people. I would agree with you in that it doesn’t appear Paul believed “owning” a person in and of itself made someone any less of a person. They might have considered indentured servitude to be the same as “owning” a person though and I don’t believe we consider that the same thing today.
I don’t consider Saint Paul the end all be all when it comes to determining whether an action is moral or not.
Do you?
 
If the definition of slavery and its broadness changes overtime, its pretty nonsensical to talk about slavery in the 1st century using the definition we have for it today. I guess its too much to ask to have a discussion about events in the past farther back than 10 years without people being pc.
If you refuse to accept basic conventional terms in a debate, how is meaningful discussion possible?

If you want to discuss something that was called slavery that doesn’t match the definition of slavery that is fine.
But judging actual slavery based on your pseudo-slavery of choice is dubious at best.
 
I don’t consider Saint Paul the end all be all when it comes to determining whether an action is moral or not.
Do you?
Nope, merely indulging in an intellectual discussion. The original question of this thread could be read as “Is slavery intrinsically evil?”. Talking about Paul’s view on the subject makes sense in that regard, because if Paul supported something intrinsically evil that would be pretty disconcerting would it not?
 
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