Is "Smite Their Neck" acceptable in Islam for those who are perceived as enemy?

[r.gonzales]

ahhh… the LoL site. that has been posted before…

here was my reply to it back when it was first posted:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=752462&postcount=17

as has been common with these types of write ups, even when references are given, it’s been proven time and time again that the translations either 1) contain errors, 2) are taken out of context or 3) clipped and distorted (such i’ve shown with some of the quotes from your book). and in the case where there are no references given, such as this article here, very difficult to verify.

as for what’s mentioned at the end regarding the “common people”… then i replied to that in the thread i started about prophet muhammad’s illiteracy: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=61916

it is enough to refute these claims by mentioning the authentic report originating from prophet muhammad’s own cousin, 'abdullah bin 'abbaas, in which he testifies to the fact that prophet muhammad was illiterate. this statement was referred to in the above mentioned thread.

 

[r.gonzales]

DeExupery:

If it means recite, I believe anyone who can speak a language can recite. Even if I can’t speak Arabic, if only to recite it the way someone speak, it is still possible. So the proper translation should be Iqra = read.

f.y.i. when someone recites the Quran from memory, in arabic, it is said that he read such and such verse. so the command “read” can easily mean “recite”. i gave an example in the thread that i started on prophet muhammad’s illiteracy of many blind muslim scholars writing books. it is known that they didn’t write these books by their own hands because they were blind. rather, they dictated to scribes who would write down their words. however, it is still said that they wrote these books. similarly, these very same scholars have books read to them and they are said to have read those books. so, in the arabic language, when someone says “he read such and such - qara’a kadha wa kadha” it does not necessarily mean that he actually picked up a physical book and read its pages. it can easily mean that he recited a particular passage from the Quran from memory, and he is still considered to have read it.

 

[Faith101]

QUOTE=Booklover]Sounds to me like you relish the idea of their punishment! For your information, as Jesus was dying on the cross He asked His Father in heaven to forgive his executioners “as they know not what they do.”.

Was that before or after he asked why God has forsaken him?

If you subscribe to the notion that Mohammed was a kind, lovable man, you should read: The Secret of Muhammad’s Success"

faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina40612.htm
Makes a very good read! It explains a lot of things I’d wondered about.

cool…here you go, a really good read on african americans…www.kukluxklan.com

Faith, do not make a victim of yourself! You said that I “attacked people”. I made a statement about Mohammed and the Quran! You are twisting things around. The problem is that you do not see anything wrong with the teachings of Islam, to you it’s perfect. Islam is a religion fully rooted in the 7th century and has never progressed from there. To you stoning is the perfect punishment for people who commit adultery! In Catholism, we have the sacrament of confession, not execution!

Booklover, take a look at your responses, they are all full of sarcasm and are not productive to any kind of conversation.

Still fully rooted in the 7th century? but right now its the fastest growing religion on earth and in your own country. It has to have some kind of 21st century appeal

Our Lord Jesus Christ and his Blessed Mother are blasphemed every day and we do not threaten the perpetrators of these atrocities with death! There is a play called “Jesus Has Two Mommies” in which our Blessed Mother is portrayed as a lesbian and another one called “Corpus Christi” in which Jesus is portrayed as a homosexual who has sex with his apostles. What the faithful do is protest peacefully outside the theaters showing these disgusting productions or send protest postcards, emails or make phone calls! We do not ask for blood! Do you get the picture? It doesn’t take much in Islam for someone to be condemned to death!

Booklover, your ENTIRE religion is based on a BLOOD SACRIFICE. an innocent man dying for the sins that you did not commit so that god (who is really Jesus, the sacrifice) can reopen heaven for you. NO blood, no heaven…what more violent injustice can there be?

 

[Faith101]

cute2904:

nothing good to say or is it that you who ignores what she was saying?

And you think you full of knowledge when dealing about christianity issues? get a life

We are not attacking people… we are attacking your doctrines. Your terrorist brothers who attacking people and killing people around the world.

I am sincerely sorry that I even replied to her message. I am supposed to talk to you in a way that is better than you talk to me. May Allah forgive me and guide you both, if that is His will.

 

[JoelRichardson]

clipped and distorted (such i’ve shown with some of the quotes from your book).<<<

Such as?

 

[Edris]

DeExupery:

Dear Gonzales,

If it means recite, I believe anyone who can speak a language can recite. Even if I can’t speak Arabic, if only to recite it the way someone speak, it is still possible. So the proper translation should be Iqra = read.

As the messenger directly from Allah, the all knowing, do you think Jibril doesn’t know how anything about Mohammed PBUH? About his illiteracy? And keep repeating Iqra??

“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” (Deut.18:18.)

“AND THE BOOK IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED, SAYING, READ THIS I PRAY THEE: AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED.” (Isaiah 29:12).

"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. “But when he, the spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own initiative, but whatever he hears, he will speak; and he will disclose to you what is to come.” (John 16:12-13)

---

“Those to whom We gave the Scripture (Jews and Christians) recognise him (Muhammad) as they recongise their sons But verily, a party of them conceal the truth while they know it - [ie the qualities of Muhammad which are written in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)]” (Qur’an 2:146)

“Those who follow the Apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own Scriptures, in the Torah and the Gospel……” (Quran 7:157)

 

[mjdonnelly]

Edris:

"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. “But when he, the spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own initiative, but whatever he hears, he will speak; and he will disclose to you what is to come.” (John 16:12-13)

Referring to Jesus.

 

[r.gonzales]

>>>clipped and distorted (such i’ve shown with some of the quotes from your book).<<<

Such as?

perhaps you should try reading the replies i wrote to you… :ehh:

in any case, let’s take a look at what you quoted from ibn taimiyyah’s book as-saarim al-maslool 'alaa shaatim ar-rasool (the unsheathed sword on the abuser of the Messenger).

JoelRichardson:

Renowned Muslim Philosopher Ibn Taymiyah from his book titled The Sword on the neck of the Accuser of Muhammad:

“Believers when in a weakened stage in a non-Muslim country should forgive and be patient with people of the book (i.e., Jews and Christians) when they insult Allah and his prophet by any means. Believers should lie to people of the book to protect their lives and their religion.”

and compare it to what ibn taimiyyah actually said (which can be verified by whoever is able to read arabic by downloading the book in word format here: almeshkat.net/books/open.php?cat=25&book=592&PHPSESSID=e018dcdbc0878f2c9309794ee17d41d0"):

so whoever was from the muslims in a land in which he was put in a weakened state, or during a time in which he was in a weakened state, then he should act by the verse of patience, forgiveness and {pardon} from whoever of those who were given the Book (i.e., the jews and the christians) and the polytheists who harms Allah and His messenger. as for the people of strength, then certainly they act by the verse of fighting the leaders of disbelief who attack the religion and by the verse of fighting those who were given the Book until they give the jizyah from a [willing] hand while they are subdued.

so if it is said Allah, exalted is He, has said, “do you not see those who were forbidden from secret counsels - until - and if they came to you greeting you by what Allah did not great you with and they say within themselves, ‘if Allah will not punish us for what we say.’ sufficient for them is hell; they will be burned by it. the outcome is wretched.” (58:8) then He informed that they greet the messenger with a rejected greeting and he informed that the punishment in the hereafter suffices them for it. so it is known that punishing them in the worldly life is not obligatory.

that sir, is clipping and distorting ibn taimiyyah’s statement. no where in this passage does ibn taimiyyah encourage lying. nor does it even make sense for ibn taimiyyah to mention such a thing in this book at all, since the topic of the book is regarding cursing and reviling prophet muhammad, Allah, the believers and the other prophets - as well as the rulings and punishments for such an evil act.

and by the way, “put in a weakened state” in the arabic is “mustad’afa” - which actually means “deemed weak; weak; oppressed, miserable” as found in the hans wehr arabic/english dictionary - is a state in which they are not able to practice their religion openly.

Allah says in the Quran, “surely, those who the angels take as oppressors of their selves, they (the angels) say, ‘in what [state] were you?’ they say, ‘we were oppressed in the earth.’ they say, ‘was not Allah’s earth wide enough to migrate in it?’ so these ones, their abode is hell - what a wicked outcome!” (4:97) 'abdur-rahmaan as-sa’dee says in his tafseer of this verse, “whenever the slave was in a place in which it is not possible to make anything from his religion apparent (i.e., not practice anything of his relion openly), then surely he has room and spaciousness from the earth in which worship of Allah is possible.”

so being put in a weakened state means that they are oppressed such that they are not able to practice anything from their religion openly.

 

[JoelRichardson]

“Those to whom We gave the Scripture (Jews and Christians) recognise him (Muhammad) as they recongise their sons But verily, a party of them conceal the truth while they know it - [ie the qualities of Muhammad which are written in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)]” (Qur’an 2:146)

Edris,

Nice of you to add your own (parenthesis) to show us (change for us) what the sura means. Does changing the meaning of your own scriptures and of others bring about a grievous penalty from Allah also?

The full context is speaking about the Qibla (The direction in which one should pray) and the Jews were calling Muhammad a false prophet because he claimed that God changed his mind about the Qibla, (from Jerusalem to Mecca):

2:143: “Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.”
2:144: “We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens: now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.”
2:145: “Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the Signs (together), they would not follow Thy Qibla; nor art thou going to follow their Qibla; nor indeed will they follow each other’s Qibla. If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee, Wert to follow their (vain) desires,-then wert thou Indeed (clearly) in the wrong.”
2:146: “The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know.”
2:147: " The Truth is from thy Lord; so be not at all in doubt."

From Ibn Kathirs Tafsir [brackets mine]:

tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=3998

(Certainly, the people who were given the Scripture (i.e., Jews and the Christians) know well that, that (your turning towards the direction of the Ka`bah at Makkah in prayers) is the truth from their Lord.)

"This Ayah [verse] means: The Jews [oh wait, I though edris was trying to say that it meant both the Jews AND the Christians in this case], who did not like that you change your Qiblah from Bayt Al-Maqdis [Jerusalem], already knew that Allah will command you (O Muhammad) to face the Ka`bah [in Mecca]. The Jews read in their Books their Prophets’ description of Allah’s Messenger and his Ummah, and that Allah has endowed and honored him with the complete and honorable legislation. [really? where???] Yet, the People of the Book deny these facts because of their envy, disbelief and rebellion.

Which leads us to Edris’, best claims. Let’s examine them:

(See next post)

 

[JoelRichardson]

Part 2:

“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” (Deut.18:18.)

Is this a prophecy about Muhammad in Deuteronomy?

debate.org.uk/topics/trtracts/t03.htm

Consider these nine comparisons:

Moses Muhammad Jesus:

The baby Moses was saved by God (Exodus 1:17; Exodus 2:2-10).

Muhammad was not saved as a baby. Is he like Moses?

The Baby Jesus was saved by God (Matthew 2:16). Isn’t he like Moses?

Moses had a personal relationship with God (Exodus 16:15; 33:13-14; Numbers 9:8-9)

God is distant and unknown according to the prophet Muhammad. He never spoke directly with God. Is he like Moses?

Jesus was in the presence of God (Matthew 17:2-8). Isn’t he like Moses?

God established Moses in authority like God (Exodus 4:16; 7:1).

Nowhere in the Qur’an did God expressly say to Muhammad, “You are like God.” Is he like Moses?

Jesus was like God in authority: he forgave sins (only God can forgive sins) (Mark 2:5). Isn’t he like Moses?

Moses was testified by God in the sight of all his people and performed miracles to give him authority (Exodus 7:10-20; 8-12; 9:3-15; 12:29; 14:21-22; 17:6-7; 19:9; 19:17-19; 20:18-22; Deuteronomy 4:10-16; 5:23-26).

Nowhere in the Qur’an did God testify for Muhammad in the sight of all his people. He himself said of his critics that since they pronounced not witnesses, they are liars (Sura 24:13). Except for the Qur’an, he performed no miracles. Is he like Moses (Sura 29:50)?

The Holy prophet Jesus was testified to by God in the sight of all His people and performed many miracles (Matthew 5:8; 8:14ff; 14:13; Luke 7:11). Isn’t he like Moses?

Moses was transfigured on the occasion of his exposition before God and his face shone (Exodus 34:29). His followers, therefore, feared him; but he called them with love and told them the Word of God (Exodus 23:29-32).

Nowhere in the Qur’an is Muhammad ever transfigured. After the angel Gabriel spoke to him we see no such phenomenal sign. His followers honoured him by believing his authority and not God’s. Is he like Moses?

Jesus was transfigured and his whole appearance shone. His disciples, therefore, feared him, but he talked to them about about the Word of God revealed in the moment (Mark 9:2,5; Luke 9:29,34; Matthew 17:1-7). Isn’t he like Moses?

Moses prophecied events which were fulfilled (Deuteronomy 18:15-22; 28:15-29,67). Except for alluding to battle victories,

Muhammad never prophecied specific events which were fulfilled. Is he like Moses?

Jesus prophecied events that were fulfilled (Matthew 24). Isn’t he like Moses?

Moses offered himself before God to take upon himself the sins of all the people (atonement) (Exodus 32:30-32).

Nowhere in the Qur’an does the prophet Muhammad offer himself to be an atonement for the sins of his people. Is he like Moses?

Jesus offered himself on the cross to take upon himself the sins of all humanity (atonement) (Isaiah 53:5; Matthew 26:28). Isn’t he like Moses?

Moses ordained a religion made up of mercy and the justice of God (Exodus 32:30-32) and later added the forgiveness of sins, by means of an offering for sins - a lamb - in order to be reconciled with God (Leviticus 4:2; 6:24-25; 14:13-lamb; Exodus 12:5; 13-lamb).

The prophet Muhammad was openly against the shedding of the blood of a lamb, and taught that sacrifice for one’s sins doesn’t bring forgiveness (Sura Al An’am 6:164; Al Najm 53:38; note also Yusuf Ali number 543). Is he like Moses?

Jesus fulfilled the forgiveness for sins by his own death, “as the final Lamb of God,” so that all who believe in His innocent sacrifice have forgiveness for their sins. He is the perfect sacrifice which lasts forever (Hebrews 9:22). Isn’t he like Moses?

Moses was descended from the prophetic line of Jacob, the son of Isaac (Exodus 2:1; 3:15).

Muhammad was a descendent of Ishmael (as the Muslims claim), not Jacob. Is he like Moses?

Jesus is descended from Jacob by both Joseph and Mary (Matthew 1:2,16; Luke 3:23,34). Isn’t he like Moses?​

 

[JoelRichardson]

(Part 3) The best yet:

“AND THE BOOK IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED, SAYING, READ THIS I PRAY THEE: AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED.” (Isaiah 29:12).

Now this one is just awesome in displaying how Muslims try to twist the scriptures out of their context to try to show a prophecy about Muhammad.

answering-islam.org/BibleCom/is29-12.html

Again Edris: CONTEXT!!:

…looking into the context of this verse will make clear that this is a complete misinterpretation. There is no prediction of a future prophet in this passage. [O]n the contrary.

Isaiah 29 is a chapter of announcing punishment on Israel.

3 I will encamp against you all around;
I will encircle you with towers
and set up my siege works against you.
4 Brought low, you will speak from the ground;
your speech will mumble out of the dust.
Your voice will come ghostlike from the earth;
out of the dust your speech will whisper.

and as part of the punishment we read that God will also take away the ability to read (understand) the holy word because they have disobeyed it for so long. In particular, verse 10 states clearly that the prophets and seers themselves will be put to sleep and no longer receive revelation from the LORD.

9 Be stunned and amazed, blind yourselves and be sightless;
be drunk, but not from wine, stagger, but not from beer.
10 The LORD has brought over you a deep sleep:
He has sealed your eyes, the prophets;
he has covered your heads, the seers.
11 For you this whole vision is nothing but words sealed in a scroll.
And if you give the scroll to someone who can read, and say to him,
“Read this, please,” he will answer, “I can’t; it is sealed.”
12 Or if you give the scroll to someone who cannot read, and say,
“Read this, please,” he will answer, “I don’t know how to read.”
13 The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth
and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.

…really want to say that this refers to Muhammad? The heart far from God, with worship that is not according to God’s will but according to what men have invented (v.13) and that his inability to read is part of God’s punishment? It is a sign of God putting a deep sleep on the people regarding spiritual matters, so that regardless how knowledgeable they are, they would nevertheless be unable to read (comprehend) what the word of God means.

Be careful what passages you claim for him! Maybe this does indeed describe Muhammad?

"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. “But when he, the spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own initiative, but whatever he hears, he will speak; and he will disclose to you what is to come.” (John 16:12-13)

Talking about the Holy Spirit. Again, just read the context…

 

[JoelRichardson]

Gonzales,

That’s one. You claimed that I took them all out of context. But the only one you have discussed is this one which I cannot presently verify.

I accurately quoted from Mark Gabriel’s book. Could he have been deceptive? Maybe. But do not act as If I have clipped or distorted anything. I will however, look into this with some of my Arabic speaking friends. If you are correct, I will indeed correct this this.

But what about all of the other incriminating quotes that I have referenced?

Bless you,

Joel

 

[r.gonzales]

JoelRichardson:

But what about all of the other incriminating quotes that I have referenced?

try scrolling through the rest of the posts that preceded… you’ll find i’ve replied to all of the quotes you posted except the last one by ibn katheer and that reply will be coming shortly, if Allah wills.

 

[Booklover]

JoelRichardson:

Part 2:

It is only right therefore to ask: Does it really aggrandise a religion for it to be built on the primitiveness of men? Is the benightedness of those who follow its teachings really something to be proud of? Would God not have been able to prove the eloquence of the Qur’an to civilised people equally well, making it be delivered by a learned man and not an illiterate one, without detracting from the power and essence of the miracle?

That is exactly the issue here! If the Quran were the word or God it would be the truth whether Mohammed were illiterate or not! But somehow Muslims think that if they continue to believe that Mohammed was illiterate, that would give more credibility to the Quran. That’s illogical!

This is the way Sher Khan puts it in an article:
“The leader of our country does not know how to read and write - he is completely illiterate.” How does it sound? Should someone be proud of this statement? Well, Islam has its own standard where ignorance is bliss. Many Muslim apologists and followers gleefully proclaim that Mohammad was illiterate. By claiming so, they try to prove that Mohammad was “logically” unable to write a book like the Quran, hence this book could only have been sent by God. It’s interesting how Islam selectively (illogically) exploits the sanity of logic!

 

[Reuben_J]

r.gonzales:

f.y.i. when someone recites the Quran from memory, in arabic, it is said that he read such and such verse. so the command “read” can easily mean “recite”. i gave an example in the thread that i started on prophet muhammad’s illiteracy of many blind muslim scholars writing books. it is known that they didn’t write these books by their own hands because they were blind. rather, they dictated to scribes who would write down their words. however, it is still said that they wrote these books. similarly, these very same scholars have books read to them and they are said to have read those books. so, in the arabic language, when someone says “he read such and such - qara’a kadha wa kadha” it does not necessarily mean that he actually picked up a physical book and read its pages. it can easily mean that he recited a particular passage from the Quran from memory, and he is still considered to have read it.

For those Muslims who cannot understand the Trinity concept because it’s ‘too complicated and illogical’ I think you make the meaning of the words ‘read’ and ‘illiterate’ rather complicated.

 

[JoelRichardson]

firstly, a little background info on al-hajjaaj bin 'ilaat: he had left makkah with the people thinking that he was only going away on journey, but instead he met up with prophet muhammad and the muslims at khaibar to embrace islam. thus, the makkans did not know of his conversion. after the conquest of khaibar, he desired to go back to makkah where he had left his wealth and family behind. take note that there is no mention in the hadeeth of this money and family being “excess”. during this time in islamic history, aside from the hostility coming from the hypocrites hiding in al-madeenah as well as the jews settled around its outskirts, the muslims still had to face the continuing hostility from the polytheist makkans were. al-hajjaaj asked for permission to use taqiyyah out of fear of oppression and persecution - danger to his life, his family and his wealth - from the polytheist makkans. and just as Allah has said in the Quran, “unless you fear something to be feared” meaning some danger or harm that will come to you or your religion. al-hajjaaj bin 'ilaat feared being harmed if the makkans found out about his conversion to islam, thus his use of it here is justified and was in no way due to some desire for worldy gains.

 

[JoelRichardson]

try scrolling through the rest of the posts that preceded… you’ll find i’ve replied to all of the quotes you posted except the last one by ibn katheer and that reply will be coming shortly, if Allah wills.

My bad. I missed your replies. And while I applaud you for at least attempting to defend these, all you really did was confirm them.

For instance:

as i mentioned, al-ghazaalee was a sufi for much of his life. both these quotes you’ve brought are referenced to sufi books, the first reliance of the traveller - translated by the well-known heretic and sufi, nooh haa meem keller. a refutation of this book and its translator has been prepared by dr. saleh as-saleh and should be available somewhere on the internet (i think hashi might know where to find it)… as for the second quote, then it’s taken from al-ghazaalee’s book ihyaa 'uloom ad-deen, which is known to have been written during his sufi days. the book contains many statements that constitute disbelief. ibn taimiyyah himself has many comments regarding this book and its contents.

Again, what you have done is simply attempted to discredit Ghazali by marginalizing him as a “sufi”. While he did indeed practice aspects of Sufiism, he is also considered a very balanced practicitioner of such by most Muslims that I have ever talked to. Simply citing a reference to some other Muslim who “refutes” Ghazali does nothing for the conversation. In other words, Ghazali’s Orthodoxy or Heterodoxy is an in-house Muslim debate. A simple Google search of Ghazalis name will turn up endless praises for him. For example:

Hamza Yusuf, the celebrated American Muslim Sheikh regularly references, promotes and sells Ghazali’s writings.

alhambraproductions.com/shopping/index.php?id=117

ghazali.org/

“Abu Hamid al-Ghazali (450-1058 AH/505-1111 AD) [aka: al-Ghazzali , Algazel ] is one of the great jurists, theologians and mystics of the 12th Century. He wrote on a wide range of topics including jurisprudence, theology, mysticism and philosophy.”

cis-ca.org/voices/g/ghaz-mn.htm

“Muhammad al-Ghazali remains one of the most celebrated scholars in the history of Islamic thought. His exceptional life and works continue to be indispensable in the study of jurisprudence, theology, philosophy and mysticism.”

So what? Again, my point is that simply because R. Gonzales rejects Ghazali, does not mean that most Muslims do. Certainly not. (I have read Ulum id Deen in it’s entirety by the way. To be quite honest, I really enjoyed many parts of it.) The question however to be asked is this: Did Ghazali’s thoughts on lying come from the culture of Islam or Sufiism? The point of my chapter is to demonstrate that deception finds a fertile ground in the culture of Islam that allows lying for various reasons and also that views the kaffirun and ahl-i-kitab as unworthy of respect.

I tried to avoid anecdotes for the simple reson that that is waht they are, but anyone who has been around, knows the glisten in a Muslim eye and the knowing smile when you mention to them the idea of “trickery”. I’ve also been in the fray of discussion for long enough to know that the following article is a very accurate portrayal of the reality within the Islamic sub-culture:

wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43868

I also encourage anyone to read the book, “Terrorist Hunter”. Well worth the read.

Enough for now.

Bless you,

Joel

 

[r.gonzales]

JoelRichardson:

Hamza Yusuf, the celebrated American Muslim Sheikh regularly references, promotes and sells Ghazali’s writings.

guess what? hamzah yoosuf hanson is a deviant and a sufi too. that refutation of nooh haa meem keller i mentioned in one of my posts has a section on hamzah yoosuf as well.

as for those quotes you posted in praise of al-imam al-ghazaalee, they confirm what i mentioned of his early days as a sufi, which is what those references to mysticism are talking about. as for what those quotes mention of philosophy, then i’ve already shown how ibn taimiyyah has numerous statements rejecting philisophical thought and also has refutations of it. btw, it is said that before al-ghazaalee died, he renounced all of his heretical sufi beliefs and accepted the true way of islam…

as for the sufis themselves, here’s a little background info on the sufis - they started as a group that branched off from the shee’ah and then later made the claim that they were from ahl as-sunnah, rejecting their shee’ah origins. (this is something that is confirmed in encyclopaedia britannica’s brief description of the history of the sufis). sufism is not from islam, and is considered to be heretical in light of the teachings from the Quran and sunnah. many of their practices and beliefs were rejected by prophet muhammad and his companions.

 

[JoelRichardson]

Well then I’m sure you’ll admit that he is still quite a celebrated deviant. I’m guessing at this point that you’re a Salafi?

 

[r.gonzales]

JoelRichardson:

Well then I’m sure you’ll admit that he is still quite a celebrated deviant. I’m guessing at this point that you’re a Salafi?

that i am.